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Maulden7
Original Poster
21 posts
101 months
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iva cosworth
6,816 posts
32 months
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Maulden7 said: Correct ,impossible,report to Ebay and there is also a thread in GG to report "Ringing kits" such as these. The next Sunbeam Lotus to go missing could end up with these tags on it 
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LordBretSinclair
2,041 posts
46 months
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There's actually a lot more there than a lot of so called "Works Escorts" have been resurrected from.
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S10GTA
2,521 posts
36 months
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His email sums it up really
chirs@jokejob.com
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iSore
752 posts
13 months
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I don't see the problem. It would cost more to build a Lotus Sunbeam from those parts, a Sunbeam shell, Lotus engine, dog leg box etc than the completed car is worth but it's labour of love that results in another great old car back on the road to be seen and enjoyed. Or you could sit, all pursed lips and huffing, behind a computer screen moaning about it. There are very few left and if one did go missing and resurface with a '***777V number plate, it would be sussed very quickly.
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Maulden7
Original Poster
21 posts
101 months
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Ok, let's speculate what might happen, on the basis that this is bought in good faith to build an actual car.
Good examples are now selling in the £8/10k range, with top cars fetching more than that. So, doing most of the work yourself it would be possible to build a car, & see something near the cost still in the apparent value.
Then, you go to the owner's club for a valuation, but they know everything about the background, & tell you that it is an illegal recreation, & worthless.
How would you feel?
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iSore
752 posts
13 months
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Maulden7 said: Ok, let's speculate what might happen, on the basis that this is bought in good faith to build an actual car.
Good examples are now selling in the £8/10k range, with top cars fetching more than that. So, doing most of the work yourself it would be possible to build a car, & see something near the cost still in the apparent value.
Then, you go to the owner's club for a valuation, but they know everything about the background, & tell you that it is an illegal recreation, & worthless.
How would you feel?
An interesting idea, but it hasn't harmed the values of 'self built' Escort RS1600's, Cooper S Minis, Lotus Cortinas etc - and a very large proportion of those are rather 'moody' when the question of provenance arises. The owners club is just that - a club and not any kind of authority. Most buyers are clued up. Built from a properly restored and converted Sunbeam 1600 shell, with all the correct parts, it'll still look a million dollars and sell for good money. It will still be a mint Sunbeam Lotus for the price of a Kia Picanto - we're not taking 250GTO's or Blower Bentleys are we?
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200Plus Club
799 posts
147 months
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the SLOC are already onto this car, and the advert. if it did eventually resurface you would hope any potential buyer would think on and join the SLOC first, as they hold comprehensive records of many of the reg nos/history and this one is already marked following the advert.
so in all honesty it will never fetch what its "worth" if it were an original shell/rebuild etc.
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Maulden7
Original Poster
21 posts
101 months
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"The owners club is just that - a club and not any kind of authority"
On the contrary with the Talbot Sunbeam Lotus, the owners club is acknowledged as the main authority for this car. If they were to inform DVLA that a certain car was a "ringer" related to current legislation, & be able to show this from records, then that car would certainly end up with a Q plate, even if it were allowed to remain on the road after the mandatory inspection.
The Club holds the original factory production records, which show full details of what was essentially a low volume production car. Plus they know where the "hidden" ID details are shown on every original car.
The items shown on ebay does not include a chassis plate, & these (& the spec plates) & "hidden" tags, are almost impossible to replicate without specialist equipment, so easily identified if faked.
You must by now have realised that I am a very long time Lotus Sunbeam owner / enthusiast & a founder member of SLOC & official of the club. It is a small world & there are no secrets.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for preserving every possible example (there are around 400 left in the UK - but never more than 100 road legal at any one time) but what I don't want is for somebody to spend a bunch of money, & then have to be told that they have a problem. If the club is approached, any response must be above reproach in order to avoid further potential legal problems.
We know the full registration of this "car", & the VIN details etc etc
I haven't done anything yet, but what do others think here?
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DocJock
2,784 posts
109 months
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Well, seeing as you asked, I think that you are coming across as an over-officious, self-appointed, busybody.
As has been said, plenty of classic cars have been rebuilt from similar starting points. Does it really matter that it's a collection of parts rather than all original if it means one more person can enjoy owning a great wee car?
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Maulden7
Original Poster
21 posts
101 months
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dartissimus
211 posts
43 months
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Itsa bitsa.
It's in good company with all those Bentleys and Bugattis
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iva cosworth
6,816 posts
32 months
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As has been said ,there is plenty of Escort RSs and other stuff about
that have been re-shelled and Vins "transferred".
Doesn't make it right or legal.
There are a number of Escort Cosworths on RS2000 MK5 Vins.
Barge with pole not touch do.......rearrange in correct order.
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iSore
752 posts
13 months
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Maulden7 said: "The owners club is just that - a club and not any kind of authority"
On the contrary with the Talbot Sunbeam Lotus, the owners club is acknowledged as the main authority for this car. If they were to inform DVLA that a certain car was a "ringer" related to current legislation, & be able to show this from records, then the DVLA wouldn't actually give a toss EFA. You're in dreamland. You think the DVLA actually give a s  t? Look at all the logbook rebuilds, the late model Minis, land Rovers etc with pre '73 logbooks. They're not interested in either a Sunbeam built from a logbook and a shell, or anything you have to say. Get a life FFS.
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iva cosworth
6,816 posts
32 months
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DVLA might well GAF !
The whole point of the OP is that an innocent buyer could end up with this "car",after
paying top money for a rebuilt car or a stolen car and then lose the car and all his money.
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AllNines
344 posts
51 months
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I can't believe that some of you are actually OK with this practice! The car is dead, send the V5 to Swansea and let it rest in peace. There is no place for ringed cars, whatever marque they happen to be, let alone a Sunbeam Lotus.
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iSore
752 posts
13 months
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AllNines said: I can't believe that some of you are actually OK with this practice! The car is dead, send the V5 to Swansea and let it rest in peace. There is no place for ringed cars, whatever marque they happen to be, let alone a Sunbeam Lotus. For Christs sake........ A ringer is a stolen car with the identity of another. A Lotus Sunbeam built from a shell, the rest of the parts and a V5 is something else. No, it's not 'original' but the finished car, if built nicely, is still worth owning. There aren't enough of these sorts of cars left. A quick story: Around 20 years ago I knew a guy who bought a stunning 1967 Cooper S for around £10'000, then top money for such a car. It had been painstakingly rebuilt by a well known Mini specialist and it really was lovely with all the right parts and correct detailing. He actually told me that he thought it was a logbook rebuild (it was) - but he didn't care. It was a 1967 Cooper S, something he wanted for a long time - and he still has it. Can you argue with that? In a fantasy world, we'd open up a garage door every weekend and find a dusty old classic ripe for restoration but life isn't like that.
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AllNines
344 posts
51 months
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So you don't think that this ID could be used as a ringer in your definition?
There are plenty of 'Lotus' Sunbeams around that started life as 1600s or whatever; i.e. they have been converted to Lotus spec, but they keep their original identity because that is how it should be. They are known as such and there's no problem with that. Changing the VIN tags and body stampings, however, and purporting it to be a Sunbeam Lotus is something else entirely. Something illegal. To use your terminology - for christ's sake...
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iSore
752 posts
13 months
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AllNines said: So you don't think that this ID could be used as a ringer in your definition? If attached to a stolen vehicle = yes. If not = no.
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AllNines
344 posts
51 months
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So the answer is yes. Thus, it's not right. Thanks.
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