Baby boomers and classic cars
Discussion
LordBretSinclair said:
Go for it though, you're here for a good time, not a long time.
A pattern is emerging. Get to 50'ish, have some spare dosh, buy a toy car, kid the wife/partner that it isn't as expensive to buy or run as it is.Justify it as an alternative to the building society, better return and more fun.
It could just be a mid life crisis situation, our new kitchen was more expensive than my red sports car,
A week after I bought my car, my sister casually informed me that our aunt who had recently died had left us each some money, & I kid you not, exactly the same amount that I had just paid for my car.
That was six years ago, & I am starting to think that the value of the car is too great, that is, that I shouldn't have that much money tied up in a toy, so I ought to sell it & maybe buy something cheaper.
That would be sensible, so I am having it painted over the winter instead
I don't think it is as simple as liking cars that are/were brand new when you were young. Some people (myself included) have always liked older cars and would probably just choose a more expensive 60s/70s sportscar if I had more money. There are some cars that have come down enough to look tempting enough, but they are generally high end cars that would still be expensive to run and would require large onions to take on. I do not possess said onions.
Of course if i was older, it may be different.
Of course if i was older, it may be different.
I'm not so sure the everyday cars of today and the recent past will be quite as alluring in years to come , obviously the sports and specialist vehicles will be viewed differently but the only everyday cars that stand out are the "pastiche" ones like the new Mini and Volkswagen Beetles the rest all look pretty much the same now.
With regard to the Baby Boomers investing in nostalgic toys I sometimes wonder if the classic insurance companies have noticed a significant concentration in their business in areas of high retirement ie Bournemouth and a lot of coastal towns up and down the country. I have attended the Devon Rivierra show a couple of times and it was a case of book months in advance to get a space.
With regard to the Baby Boomers investing in nostalgic toys I sometimes wonder if the classic insurance companies have noticed a significant concentration in their business in areas of high retirement ie Bournemouth and a lot of coastal towns up and down the country. I have attended the Devon Rivierra show a couple of times and it was a case of book months in advance to get a space.
RedexR said:
With regard to the Baby Boomers investing in nostalgic toys I sometimes wonder if the classic insurance companies have noticed a significant concentration in their business in areas of high retirement ie Bournemouth and a lot of coastal towns up and down the country. I have attended the Devon Rivierra show a couple of times and it was a case of book months in advance to get a space.
Good point, living oop North you really don't see many exotica or high end cars, E types excepted, ('cos there's so many of them) but plenty of tidy bread and butter stuff, but Bugattis or Delahyes are very rare, the odd Bentley but not many. At hillclimbs and historic motorsport you'll see them, but that's because a lot of the racers go all over the country
I must andmit to being puzzled by the stratospheric prices that are being asked if not paid throughout the car market, from Ferraris to Minis (£25,000 for a Cooper anyone?). An interesting site is to be found here:-
http://www.historicautogroup.com/
It becomes clear that money goes to money, with the truly exceptional cars having outpaced virtually every financial instrument available. But those of us who remember 1991 wonder when this bubble will burst, since any value is based on confidence, and the first whiff of fear or doubt and it will collapse like a pricked balloon. That's one side of the equation, but on the other side of the coin there is now so much money not only in the value of cars but in the support and infrastructure that this now seems to be another AIM - lternative Investment Market - and parallelling the rest of the markets.
On the subject of people wanting the cars they dreamed of as a child, I was at the Barratt Jackson event in Phoenix eight years ago and had a long discussion with the auctioneers on the future trends. Their opinion was that just as interest in pre-war cars was waning, they could forsee a fall in the value of cars of the 50s. Just shows what they know, since the price of such cars has risen commensurately with the rest of the market, or so it seems to me. Chevrolet Belair is a shining example there.
As the wrong end of my sixties is in sight, I wonder should I be selling for the sake of the kids, or continue to enjoy my classics? I've had over 30 years of fun with various cars, and now admit to getting them out a lot less than in the past. If I am an indicator of the baby-boomer market, that could be enough to turn the tide and create the fall that is always around the corner of any investment market.
Who knows? I mean, the Investors Chronicle spoke glowingly of market prospects only a couple of days before the crash!
http://www.historicautogroup.com/
It becomes clear that money goes to money, with the truly exceptional cars having outpaced virtually every financial instrument available. But those of us who remember 1991 wonder when this bubble will burst, since any value is based on confidence, and the first whiff of fear or doubt and it will collapse like a pricked balloon. That's one side of the equation, but on the other side of the coin there is now so much money not only in the value of cars but in the support and infrastructure that this now seems to be another AIM - lternative Investment Market - and parallelling the rest of the markets.
On the subject of people wanting the cars they dreamed of as a child, I was at the Barratt Jackson event in Phoenix eight years ago and had a long discussion with the auctioneers on the future trends. Their opinion was that just as interest in pre-war cars was waning, they could forsee a fall in the value of cars of the 50s. Just shows what they know, since the price of such cars has risen commensurately with the rest of the market, or so it seems to me. Chevrolet Belair is a shining example there.
As the wrong end of my sixties is in sight, I wonder should I be selling for the sake of the kids, or continue to enjoy my classics? I've had over 30 years of fun with various cars, and now admit to getting them out a lot less than in the past. If I am an indicator of the baby-boomer market, that could be enough to turn the tide and create the fall that is always around the corner of any investment market.
Who knows? I mean, the Investors Chronicle spoke glowingly of market prospects only a couple of days before the crash!
There will always be a market for the really special cars; those with FIA papers, small volume cars from storied manufacturers, famous cars, that sort of thing.
For mass market cars the situation is a bit harder. I think that the increasingly strict regulation on new cars is going to make older ones more attractive for modifiers, but that will surely be limited to a couple of marques.
For mass market cars the situation is a bit harder. I think that the increasingly strict regulation on new cars is going to make older ones more attractive for modifiers, but that will surely be limited to a couple of marques.
lowdrag said:
I must andmit to being puzzled by the stratospheric prices that are being asked if not paid throughout the car market,
The prices asked by the continentals are far higher than even the UK dealer prices. Is this due to more stringent regs in Europe or a bigger market (LHD) ?I really don't know, but am aware (since I am asked from time to time to help out in English) that the prices are higher. But, why are French people seling cars like an Alvis or Typhoon here rather than i9n the UK where they will command a higher price? (see here:- http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
UK dealers know they have a good thing if it is LHD and advertise at European prices - and get them - which is why some French ask me to negociate for RHD cars which they themselves convert. Also check Ebay for prices of LHD moderns - way over the price of RHD.
UK dealers know they have a good thing if it is LHD and advertise at European prices - and get them - which is why some French ask me to negociate for RHD cars which they themselves convert. Also check Ebay for prices of LHD moderns - way over the price of RHD.
LordBretSinclair said:
Wait until you get your Aston - £500 will be chicken feed 
Go for it though, you're here for a good time, not a long time.
I`m well aware of that fact,friend of mine has a DB9,he needed a interior door handle....over £500 from Aston....he bought the parts to repair it from fleabay for £25!!!!!Go for it though, you're here for a good time, not a long time.
Born in 60s, about to retire?
I wish.
Most people born in the 60s will miss out on being a part of the pension generation. Looks like we were just too late to board that boat. I turned 50 two weeks ago, unless you are lucky enough to still be in a final salary scheme then the idea of early retirement is unlikely to happen now, unless you have something like a company to sell. Sadly my company is basically me, so worthless without me working. Pension pots will be a fraction of the size they were estimated as when we started pouring money into them 20+ years ago, and annuities are going to give a fraction of what we'd all hoped for.
Oh well. I don't suppose I would want to pay the mortgage which would be needed to by my house now, so I'm still better off than those born later.
As for classic cars, couldn't afford a mistress, so a classic car seemed the best bet. My XK150 is 4 and half years older than me. As a Sixties child surely I should lust after an E-Type, but no. I've always liked them, but not to the extent that I've ever really wanted to own one. I don't remember being aware of XKs particularly until I saw a 140 at a car show at AliPali when I was a teenager, but that really caught my eye.
There are many reason why people fancy a classic car. Being the bedroom pinup is surely one reason, but not the only one. I think much of the reason why high end exotics are still on the upward curve is that many buyers are seeing them as an investment. Sticking money anywhere else isn't seen as safe. Quantitative Easing has lowered the returns on guilts, so while safe they don't pay their way (which is also why annuities are so poor at the moment). So investing in things like classic cars is attractive, the market is still strong at least in part because it is still strong (circular I know). For a few such investors there is the bonus that the investment is also a toy that can play with. Most privately horde there treasure because it is too precious to play with and risk damage. If I had a real C or D type, I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to risk my pension sideways round Madwick.
For me the attraction is in driving something so totally different to driving a modern car. I prefer driving my XK to driving an E-Type because in every rational way, it is a worse car. When I bought it, it was as old as I wanted to go, it still had disc brakes and a single piece windscreen. Now I have a yearn for something older. I can see why someone wants to drive a pre war car, because they'd look at the experience of driving my 50s example as just being too modern, too easy, just not a challenge. Modern life is all about making life easy, handing things to you on a plate. Well that's great when you need to get form A to B. But when you want to play, you want something different. Modern performance cars can't be played with on the road, they're just too fast and too competent. I had a GT4 which are fun, but fun doing the sorts of speed that just aren't sensible down country roads, or fun drifting around roundabouts at 70... not a good plan in the rush hour. A classic car makes you work at your driving, so can be a challenge and can return your investment in the sort of smiles its difficult to get in other ways.
I don't see older cars stopping being of interest, even as newer old cars start to be regarded as classics. Hell I'm even starting to treat my "new" car more as a classic than a mere means of transport.
I wish.
Most people born in the 60s will miss out on being a part of the pension generation. Looks like we were just too late to board that boat. I turned 50 two weeks ago, unless you are lucky enough to still be in a final salary scheme then the idea of early retirement is unlikely to happen now, unless you have something like a company to sell. Sadly my company is basically me, so worthless without me working. Pension pots will be a fraction of the size they were estimated as when we started pouring money into them 20+ years ago, and annuities are going to give a fraction of what we'd all hoped for.
Oh well. I don't suppose I would want to pay the mortgage which would be needed to by my house now, so I'm still better off than those born later.
As for classic cars, couldn't afford a mistress, so a classic car seemed the best bet. My XK150 is 4 and half years older than me. As a Sixties child surely I should lust after an E-Type, but no. I've always liked them, but not to the extent that I've ever really wanted to own one. I don't remember being aware of XKs particularly until I saw a 140 at a car show at AliPali when I was a teenager, but that really caught my eye.
There are many reason why people fancy a classic car. Being the bedroom pinup is surely one reason, but not the only one. I think much of the reason why high end exotics are still on the upward curve is that many buyers are seeing them as an investment. Sticking money anywhere else isn't seen as safe. Quantitative Easing has lowered the returns on guilts, so while safe they don't pay their way (which is also why annuities are so poor at the moment). So investing in things like classic cars is attractive, the market is still strong at least in part because it is still strong (circular I know). For a few such investors there is the bonus that the investment is also a toy that can play with. Most privately horde there treasure because it is too precious to play with and risk damage. If I had a real C or D type, I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to risk my pension sideways round Madwick.
For me the attraction is in driving something so totally different to driving a modern car. I prefer driving my XK to driving an E-Type because in every rational way, it is a worse car. When I bought it, it was as old as I wanted to go, it still had disc brakes and a single piece windscreen. Now I have a yearn for something older. I can see why someone wants to drive a pre war car, because they'd look at the experience of driving my 50s example as just being too modern, too easy, just not a challenge. Modern life is all about making life easy, handing things to you on a plate. Well that's great when you need to get form A to B. But when you want to play, you want something different. Modern performance cars can't be played with on the road, they're just too fast and too competent. I had a GT4 which are fun, but fun doing the sorts of speed that just aren't sensible down country roads, or fun drifting around roundabouts at 70... not a good plan in the rush hour. A classic car makes you work at your driving, so can be a challenge and can return your investment in the sort of smiles its difficult to get in other ways.
I don't see older cars stopping being of interest, even as newer old cars start to be regarded as classics. Hell I'm even starting to treat my "new" car more as a classic than a mere means of transport.
I fit the description perfectly; mid 50s got a few classics and may buy more - I particularly fancy a pre-war car of some description. However I don't understand how they can be a pension, surely that means selling them to realise the cash? I am building a collection so certainly not planning to sell them, not at least while I'm fit enough to drive and I hope that will be another 25-30 years. I plan to buy more buy-to-let flats as a pension because I can collect rent from them to the day I die with little effort and in that way I can enjoy my cars. 
I was born in 1959 and spent most of my youth in cars that I didn't want because they were cheap. Getting married early (24) exacerbated the problem so thank the lord for Alfas and buying a house was not a cheap exercise for me on my wages, I just chose to buy a house for my family rather then squander it on a car.
As a consequence, I developed a close relationship with filler and rust and soon began to loathe the rampant disintegration of cars of that era.
Of course, I lusted after many period cars but was alwasy far more concerned with speed and power which is why, when I was 21, I went through a series of motorbikes.
Fast forward to age 53 and I am very aware that I am on my second marriage with 3 children of school age, 7 years to retirement, a paid for "retro" 2005 Mustang in the garage for my retirement but I'm looking at a £23000 mortgage shortfall which I need to pay off before retiring with another loan of some sort. So I'm not typical and I don't really lust over classic cars at al as I know the reality only too well. I'd much rather have a car that falls between the two stools - not so old it disintegrates and is crap by modern standards but also not so modern, it looks terrible and has auto-everything and electronics I don't understand.
I certainly wouldn't mind an old American classic but see no reason to when i have the "retro" Mustang offering the best of both worlds. I also simply could never bring myself to pay £10000 or £20000 for a car my mind still says is worth £1000. I watched Wheeler Dealers earlier and when Brewer paid £4k for that Porsche 914, I nearly fell off my chair.
So I don't really think baby boomers are necessarily pushing up the prices as most people I know of that age seem more content in more modern BMW. Audi and Jags though one has an Eclat he's had for over 30 years in his garage.
As a consequence, I developed a close relationship with filler and rust and soon began to loathe the rampant disintegration of cars of that era.
Of course, I lusted after many period cars but was alwasy far more concerned with speed and power which is why, when I was 21, I went through a series of motorbikes.
Fast forward to age 53 and I am very aware that I am on my second marriage with 3 children of school age, 7 years to retirement, a paid for "retro" 2005 Mustang in the garage for my retirement but I'm looking at a £23000 mortgage shortfall which I need to pay off before retiring with another loan of some sort. So I'm not typical and I don't really lust over classic cars at al as I know the reality only too well. I'd much rather have a car that falls between the two stools - not so old it disintegrates and is crap by modern standards but also not so modern, it looks terrible and has auto-everything and electronics I don't understand.
I certainly wouldn't mind an old American classic but see no reason to when i have the "retro" Mustang offering the best of both worlds. I also simply could never bring myself to pay £10000 or £20000 for a car my mind still says is worth £1000. I watched Wheeler Dealers earlier and when Brewer paid £4k for that Porsche 914, I nearly fell off my chair.
So I don't really think baby boomers are necessarily pushing up the prices as most people I know of that age seem more content in more modern BMW. Audi and Jags though one has an Eclat he's had for over 30 years in his garage.
I think an A35 might just squeeze in- quite a good competetion history I think - but some old cars were dreadful when they were new and time does not improve them. Having driven such rubbish as HA Viva, Hillman Minx , Marina, Allegro and Maxi in period it is not an experience I would relish repeating. And yes- 275GTB undeniably a classic , as is Elan, Lotus Cortina, Frogeye and many others but some cars should be left to die.
A buddy of mine who has recently retired from 40 years of Corvette and american car restoration said "cars are there for a reason - if you should get in financial trouble, loose a job, become redundant, need that deposit for a house (either for yourself or your off-spring) - you have something tangiable to sell - that is what the thing is there for!" - whether you want to do that or not is immaterial, the car is a relatively easy source of ready money - if it has to go at least you have had some pleasure from it! - ask me how I know!
There is no point trying to define what is or isn't a classic car as you will never get everyone to agree. For some it means that the car has to have some innovation or breakthrough in construction or mechanicals, for others it is all about style; competition history can influence other choices, or occasionally downright marque snobbery.
For many it just means old and is just a term to describe a car that is not veteran or vintage. (This is before you get into the post-vintage thoroughbred discussion.)
Fortunately there are enough people around with different/conflicting views to ensure that a representative selection of motoring history will survive. It would be a shame if future generations never had the chance to see or drive a base models of some marques, sadly rust and low values will have already seen to that in some cases.
I find it amusing when certain marques are slated for being unreliable/rust-prone when they were new, when in truth most were. Comparisions, particularly when the comparisons are not like for like or even in the same price bracket are equally amusing.
For baby boomers a classic can be "the car you always promised yourself". In reality rose-tinted spectacles may be required to put up with the foibles of a car that was never that good in the first place; particularly when compared to current cars where even the most basic will generally start without problems on a cold/wet day, have logical controls and steer and stop without too many problems, but rose-tinted spectacles (and blinkers) abound.
Not everyone could afford some of the sought after marques new and so made do without and bought something else, now an E-type (or similar dream car) may be within reach, hopefully the reality won't be too much of a disappointment.
For many it just means old and is just a term to describe a car that is not veteran or vintage. (This is before you get into the post-vintage thoroughbred discussion.)
Fortunately there are enough people around with different/conflicting views to ensure that a representative selection of motoring history will survive. It would be a shame if future generations never had the chance to see or drive a base models of some marques, sadly rust and low values will have already seen to that in some cases.
I find it amusing when certain marques are slated for being unreliable/rust-prone when they were new, when in truth most were. Comparisions, particularly when the comparisons are not like for like or even in the same price bracket are equally amusing.
For baby boomers a classic can be "the car you always promised yourself". In reality rose-tinted spectacles may be required to put up with the foibles of a car that was never that good in the first place; particularly when compared to current cars where even the most basic will generally start without problems on a cold/wet day, have logical controls and steer and stop without too many problems, but rose-tinted spectacles (and blinkers) abound.
Not everyone could afford some of the sought after marques new and so made do without and bought something else, now an E-type (or similar dream car) may be within reach, hopefully the reality won't be too much of a disappointment.
Just turned sixty now and have always enjoyed cars and motorbikes. Used to drive TVR up until about nine years ago when I decided I wanted a change. Indulged in vintage cars and have never regretted a single moment switching out of modern sports into pre 1930's cars. For me its the character and driving experience, these old cars have to be driven, no arm on the window ledge driving these things. I have never lost money on any vintage car to date including that spent on repairs and looking after them.
However, I do notice the lack of pre 1930's at the events and shows, more and more its the 1950-1990 era that fill up the ranks. Cars that represent for me, 'modern'classic. I have no idea about which way values will head for pre 1930's cars over the next decade or two, but it is quite rare to see a young driver (under forty) driving such cars it seems.
However, I do notice the lack of pre 1930's at the events and shows, more and more its the 1950-1990 era that fill up the ranks. Cars that represent for me, 'modern'classic. I have no idea about which way values will head for pre 1930's cars over the next decade or two, but it is quite rare to see a young driver (under forty) driving such cars it seems.
Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff