$5M to invest in classics for long term..
Discussion
TooMany2cvs said:
Is he actively trying to lose money? If so, I can help him out. I'll offer him far less hassle, far less uncertainty, but the exact same end result.
We'll ignore the fact that it's classic cars, and he's not a "car person". That's irrelevant.
He's a successful businessman, so get him to look at it purely as an investment. He's suggesting pumping money into an uncertain asset class that he doesn't understand at all. He knows so little about it that he wants advice from "an expert" - despite (and don't take this personally) that "expert"'s first response to be to jump onto a forum to ask. Even then, he wants to restrict himself to individual assets that he's "heard of". On top of that, it's an asset class with values that - in many eyes - are already in a bubble. On top of THAT, the individual assets require expensive storage and maintenance to retain value. There's very little in the way of ongoing income from them, and what there is is utterly unpredictable.
Does that sound like the description of a good investment?
Like I say, I'm happy to guarantee him a significant annual loss, without any of the hassle. PM for the bank details to send the regular, large payments to...
The $5m is money he can comfortably afford to lose. His view is that at least there is enjoyable metal left at the end if nothing else. He's lost more than that on stock and gained much more than that in the traditional investment market too. The issue is that he actually needs to diversify. The new breed of super rich (and yes we have come across a few between us) are in the same boat- how many houses, how much equity, how many hotels..etc can they buy. Cars float these guys' boats and that's what matters.We'll ignore the fact that it's classic cars, and he's not a "car person". That's irrelevant.
He's a successful businessman, so get him to look at it purely as an investment. He's suggesting pumping money into an uncertain asset class that he doesn't understand at all. He knows so little about it that he wants advice from "an expert" - despite (and don't take this personally) that "expert"'s first response to be to jump onto a forum to ask. Even then, he wants to restrict himself to individual assets that he's "heard of". On top of that, it's an asset class with values that - in many eyes - are already in a bubble. On top of THAT, the individual assets require expensive storage and maintenance to retain value. There's very little in the way of ongoing income from them, and what there is is utterly unpredictable.
Does that sound like the description of a good investment?
Like I say, I'm happy to guarantee him a significant annual loss, without any of the hassle. PM for the bank details to send the regular, large payments to...
Its all irrational unless you see these guys in action. There is a whole business network growing round it too. This common interest is seeing major business deals being set up in the same way that Golf used to. That $5M could generate quite a bit more just from the networking opportunities it creates.
Ferrari are tapping into this in a big way atm by setting up a whole networking platform through driving events etc.
If these are just going to sit somewhere unloved and undriven for a long time, please direct him away from all the cars I like. He can keep the Enzo, but please tell him you made a mistake with the Gullwing and Miura. And definitely don't touch any Alfas. They rot and have terrible electrics you know 
thegreenhell said:
If these are just going to sit somewhere unloved and undriven for a long time, please direct him away from all the cars I like. He can keep the Enzo, but please tell him you made a mistake with the Gullwing and Miura. And definitely don't touch any Alfas. They rot and have terrible electrics you know
The cars will be stored in Germany and there will be the opportunity to drive them..excpet the Enzo because its stupidly low kms and is to be the longest term investment out of all of them..Muzzer79 said:
Aswell as the Gullwing, etc I'd be looking at stuff which is in the bottom half of it's appreciation curve and going upwards.
70s, 80s or even 90s stuff.
Countach, Diablo limited editions.
F355, 550 Maranello Barchetta
993 Turbo S
Stuff like that. It may take a little while longer to gain, but if you buy wisely you should realise more gains?
Saying that, I'm always sceptical about people buying cars purely as investments and not to enjoy driving them.
Nice choices and I am steering him this way for $500k worth and leaving $1m for a classic 60s Ferrari of seome description. I am very bullish on the Z8 also70s, 80s or even 90s stuff.
Countach, Diablo limited editions.
F355, 550 Maranello Barchetta
993 Turbo S
Stuff like that. It may take a little while longer to gain, but if you buy wisely you should realise more gains?
Saying that, I'm always sceptical about people buying cars purely as investments and not to enjoy driving them.
My money would be heading in the direction of a Lancia B20 spider, or any of the great late 60's Lancia models, they have a timeless elegance and aren't as shouty as the admittedly gorgeous contemporary Ferraris. The resurgence of Maserati as a global brand will surely see values of their classic models also rise inexorably.
That, and a Gordon Keeble, and as others have said, great project to have.
That, and a Gordon Keeble, and as others have said, great project to have.
Paracetamol said:
The $5m is money he can comfortably afford to lose.
Great. Then I await the PM. I can even put together a very flash looking brochure and proposal, if it'd help?Paracetamol said:
His view is that at least there is enjoyable metal left at the end if nothing else.
Even if he won't ever see them, let alone drive them?Make mine a large slice of parrot crumble with custard, please.
TooMany2cvs said:
Paracetamol said:
The $5m is money he can comfortably afford to lose.
Great. Then I await the PM. I can even put together a very flash looking brochure and proposal, if it'd help?Paracetamol said:
His view is that at least there is enjoyable metal left at the end if nothing else.
Even if he won't ever see them, let alone drive them?Make mine a large slice of parrot crumble with custard, please.
Though, I am not exactly a 'one post' jockey. As I say, unless you spend time around the guys right at the top (and my mate is not at that level but spends time with them due to his business) you will begin to understand.
I am not sure an investment based on 2CVs is going to float his boat (however shiny your brochure.
Edited by Paracetamol on Thursday 6th February 07:18
johnfm said:
I think you are good ground with the Enzo and the gullwing.- THANKS
The Z8 and the 8c, less so.
Most old Ferrari will appreciate.
No Daytona?- He's not keen (Don't know why- he doesnt like the shape)
No 246 Dino? (these are now so inflated- the Miura isn't costing that much more and is a real hardcore V8)
No F40? (definitely - he wants to match it to the Enzo- hence the red seats in the Enzo that we selected)
No 356 Speedster? - definitely a possibility- I prefer it to the Carrera GT
No 904 or 906?- too niche for him
No Countach?- Diablo was but the Miura ticks that box unless something very interesting comes up
Compared to these, the Z8 and 8C are a bit lightweight, not as investments and as cars- I think you are right but this is a very long term investment and he may actually drive these too a little bit.
The Z8 and the 8c, less so.
Most old Ferrari will appreciate.
No Daytona?- He's not keen (Don't know why- he doesnt like the shape)
No 246 Dino? (these are now so inflated- the Miura isn't costing that much more and is a real hardcore V8)
No F40? (definitely - he wants to match it to the Enzo- hence the red seats in the Enzo that we selected)
No 356 Speedster? - definitely a possibility- I prefer it to the Carrera GT
No 904 or 906?- too niche for him
No Countach?- Diablo was but the Miura ticks that box unless something very interesting comes up
Compared to these, the Z8 and 8C are a bit lightweight, not as investments and as cars- I think you are right but this is a very long term investment and he may actually drive these too a little bit.
Personally, as he's got the Lambo, the Gullwing and the obligatory Ferrari I'd go older, much older but that's just me. I'd like my car collection to be very varied and slightly eclectic but that's me. This guy's not a car chap so not too bothered which is a shame really. Anyway Bentley is a good shout or how about a pre-war Alfa instead of the 8C? What about a veteran, he could use it on the London to Brighton that would be fun for him. Perhaps think about how and when he will actually use these cars and who knows, that may kindle a spark of enthusiasm in him. What about an ex-racing car and he could get into hill climb or historic racing?
ETA just read that these are going to sit in storage in Germany so forget everything I said about trying to tempt him into using the cars, indeed forget everything I said. Get a shed full of Ferraris...
ETA just read that these are going to sit in storage in Germany so forget everything I said about trying to tempt him into using the cars, indeed forget everything I said. Get a shed full of Ferraris...
Edited by RichB on Thursday 6th February 09:49
RichB said:
Personally, as he's got the Lambo, the Gullwing and the obligatory Ferrari I'd go older, much older but that's just me. I'd like my car collection to be very varied and slightly eclectic but that's me. This guy's not a car chap so not too bothered which is a shame really. Anyway Bentley is a good shout or how about a pre-war Alfa instead of the 8C? What about a veteran, he could use it on the London to Brighton that would be fun for him. Perhaps think about how and when he will actually use these cars and who knows, that may kindle a spark of enthusiasm in him. What about an ex-racing car and he could get into hill climb or historic racing?
So would I but for investment I'd plumb for what a recently rich Chinaman (or similar) wants so as to inform peers who don't know anything about cars that they are more manly and successful. For example, your lovely Aston would fail to make a Chinaman's penis bigger, whereas one driven by James Bond and seen in the movies would. A pre war car would easily be mistaken for being some kind of peasant farmer. It's why these types demand Ferraris and Porsches whose values are also pumped up via the most popular historic racing classes.
How about spending the million on this selection;
1)Veteran; 1901 Darracq for the London to Brighton run (£85k)
2) Pre-war, Alfa Romeo 1750 GS Zagato 1933 perfect for the Mille Miglia (£750k)
3) Post-war Classic, AC Ace Bristol 1957 (£200k) ideal for driving to the Revival and because it's not a Cobra
1)Veteran; 1901 Darracq for the London to Brighton run (£85k)
2) Pre-war, Alfa Romeo 1750 GS Zagato 1933 perfect for the Mille Miglia (£750k)
3) Post-war Classic, AC Ace Bristol 1957 (£200k) ideal for driving to the Revival and because it's not a Cobra
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