Building a Special
Discussion
CAPP0 said:
Flatinfourth said:
However, welding new front legs into a two year old car requires intelligence, specialist welding equipment to deal with modern steels, and accurate jig measurement if you are not to stray into back-street-bodger country - quite a different subject.
It does, absolutely - my point was really about how much of the car you would be replacing in that situation but still not be liable to an IVA.TooMany2cvs said:
CAPP0 said:
Flatinfourth said:
However, welding new front legs into a two year old car requires intelligence, specialist welding equipment to deal with modern steels, and accurate jig measurement if you are not to stray into back-street-bodger country - quite a different subject.
It does, absolutely - my point was really about how much of the car you would be replacing in that situation but still not be liable to an IVA.CAPP0 said:
Exactly! But it's just a major anomaly that you can take a car apart and rebuild in the same manner, but not alter or amend it, when the work required for either would be very similar!
Not really. You're confusing quality of workmanship with quality of design and engineering.TooMany2cvs said:
You certainly CAN. Insurance might not like it much, and might want that letter, but that's a very different thing to Gov't regs.
Nope. I changed the engine on my mini and when I updated the V5c to notify them of the change (like a good responsible citizen) I recieved a letter telling me that the V5 would not be updated without confirmation from the engineer who carried out the work. They wanted confirmation of the engine number, type, origin (including chassis number of the original car it was fitted too.....,a whole load of useless info.Edited by TooMany2cvs on Thursday 17th April 13:13
After much to-ing and fro-ing I got a letter from a friendly specialist who confirmed it had the engine I said and that it appeared to be in the right place and the right way up, and tht he agreed it had probably come from the right sort of car of the right sort of age. This seemed to keep the DVLA happy.
I know others who have had to jump through similar hoops.
Insurance company weren't interested in the slightest.
I used to be a civil servant so know all to well that they have to work with systems which are at best a 'best fit' and often dont, but this one just seemed to be based on the fact that I was likely to be building some sort of 'ringer' which I found both insulting and frustrating. No wonder either don't engage with these syetms, or try to short cut them.
Al
Mistron said:
Nope. I changed the engine on my mini and when I updated the V5c to notify them of the change (like a good responsible citizen) I recieved a letter telling me that the V5 would not be updated without confirmation from the engineer who carried out the work. They wanted confirmation of the engine number, type, origin (including chassis number of the original car it was fitted too.....,a whole load of useless info.
Was a change of tax band involved?Mistron said:
TooMany2cvs said:
You certainly CAN. Insurance might not like it much, and might want that letter, but that's a very different thing to Gov't regs.
Nope. I changed the engine on my mini and when I updated the V5c to notify them of the change (like a good responsible citizen) I recieved a letter telling me that the V5 would not be updated without confirmation from the engineer who carried out the work. They wanted confirmation of the engine number, type, origin (including chassis number of the original car it was fitted too.....,a whole load of useless info.Edited by TooMany2cvs on Thursday 17th April 13:13
After much to-ing and fro-ing I got a letter from a friendly specialist who confirmed it had the engine I said and that it appeared to be in the right place and the right way up, and tht he agreed it had probably come from the right sort of car of the right sort of age. This seemed to keep the DVLA happy.
I know others who have had to jump through similar hoops.
Insurance company weren't interested in the slightest.
I used to be a civil servant so know all to well that they have to work with systems which are at best a 'best fit' and often dont, but this one just seemed to be based on the fact that I was likely to be building some sort of 'ringer' which I found both insulting and frustrating. No wonder either don't engage with these syetms, or try to short cut them.
Al
Indeed there is a Westfield for sale on the bay, currently, that has been registered as a Dutton presumably in order to try to sell the car and avoid IVA in this process. That car has but two connections with a Westfield the VIN number and plates from the Dutton. It will be found out if it is MOT'd at any decent station and be off the road sharpish. But the seller is not concerned with that.
I fully understand that the comments that this level of bureaucracy makes the complexity of getting a new kit car registered in the UK much more complex and significantly more expensive. However given the apparent attempts to circumvent this legislation apparent weekly on the web, I do think the DVLA/VOSA had to do something. This is their attempt and I cannot see this changing.
The registration of Specials and Kit Cars is even more difficult in mainland Europe, I understand. This probably explains the enquiries I get from some foreign buyers when I occasionally sell such cars. This system or another like it is here to stay and any kit which has modifications to the chassis or inadequate provenance or insufficient receipts will be very difficult to register even with a Q plate if not impossible. Prospective kit car builders really do need to be aware of these requirements in some detail to avoid the pitfalls that are present in the process. The rules are not simple.
If anyone has doubts or concerns about a project they are most welcome to PM me I am retired and I am happy to try and assists in what has become something of a stumbling block for some enthusiasts. I started building kit cars many years and register some five a year nowadays so I do have do have a fair amount of direct experience.
One may ask why 21924 is posting so many pages from the Bensport website? Sounds like he/she has an axe to grind? Nevertheless it is encouraging visitors to the website and we are thankful for that. The reaction to La Sarthe (or "Sweeping Beauty" as it has been christened by Motorsport) has been overwhelmingly positive and we are thankful to Astacus, Rich G and lowdrag for their kind comments.
But the main issue behind this thread is when is a car so lacking in original parts that is retains insufficient content from its initial build to not be the same vehicle and not be acceptable for an age related registration? I see the "Steady Special" also receiving flack from 21924 who says in his/her “opinion” it does not meet current rules. Good to see it’s not just us in trouble.
The originality argument will rumble on forever as there are so many issues involved. There are those who just want a bit of fun building a special, be it of their own design or based on an available kit, which will inevitably contain at least some parts from a donor vehicle. The key word here is fun, so long as the creation is safe. It could be considered quite acceptable to use a Jaguar Mk2 identity (and most mechanical parts) to build a C or D replica. This is good fun and nobody will be hoodwinked by the end result (surely). But there are others with vehicles of greater, often much greater value, who may attempt to pass something off as something it is not. This is a different league altogether and the rules must try to cover all angles. The very special Ferrari which is not a very special Ferrari, or the Speed Six which was originally a 6 ½ and not a Speed Six. Chassis from here, engine from there, suspension and steering from somewhere else, etc etc. Big money is involved and the unwary get caught. Fun yes, fraud no. This is where the rules require a flexible approach and this is where we hit a legislative reef. Unless there exists a degree of flexibility and technical understanding within the departments making the decisions there will be inevitable difficulties. But in the real world this isn’t the case and some will end up unhappy. And we have not even touched on safety issues.
I am no expert in the area of specials as those reading this will realize. As for La Sarthe, Bensport’s position is that it is as original as an R-Type chassis can possibly be. The old body comes off and the new body goes on, but the running chassis remains (after hundreds of hours of restoration) the same- unless 21924 knows our car better than we do? By the by, La Sarthe is proving a joy on road test, both to behold and to drive, and – please keep viewing the website!!!
But the main issue behind this thread is when is a car so lacking in original parts that is retains insufficient content from its initial build to not be the same vehicle and not be acceptable for an age related registration? I see the "Steady Special" also receiving flack from 21924 who says in his/her “opinion” it does not meet current rules. Good to see it’s not just us in trouble.
The originality argument will rumble on forever as there are so many issues involved. There are those who just want a bit of fun building a special, be it of their own design or based on an available kit, which will inevitably contain at least some parts from a donor vehicle. The key word here is fun, so long as the creation is safe. It could be considered quite acceptable to use a Jaguar Mk2 identity (and most mechanical parts) to build a C or D replica. This is good fun and nobody will be hoodwinked by the end result (surely). But there are others with vehicles of greater, often much greater value, who may attempt to pass something off as something it is not. This is a different league altogether and the rules must try to cover all angles. The very special Ferrari which is not a very special Ferrari, or the Speed Six which was originally a 6 ½ and not a Speed Six. Chassis from here, engine from there, suspension and steering from somewhere else, etc etc. Big money is involved and the unwary get caught. Fun yes, fraud no. This is where the rules require a flexible approach and this is where we hit a legislative reef. Unless there exists a degree of flexibility and technical understanding within the departments making the decisions there will be inevitable difficulties. But in the real world this isn’t the case and some will end up unhappy. And we have not even touched on safety issues.
I am no expert in the area of specials as those reading this will realize. As for La Sarthe, Bensport’s position is that it is as original as an R-Type chassis can possibly be. The old body comes off and the new body goes on, but the running chassis remains (after hundreds of hours of restoration) the same- unless 21924 knows our car better than we do? By the by, La Sarthe is proving a joy on road test, both to behold and to drive, and – please keep viewing the website!!!
My God, someone with the actual sprit of motoring in his veins! I built this:-
because I thought it should exist. It is registered as a 1952 Jaguar XK120, not some bloody special with a Q plate, and includes various parts of the original car. The body is of course not a standard XK120, but is a 120C (which according to the DVLA doesn't exist) or a C-type to the less informed. I am 100% behind bensport in creating a wonderful special, not an actual Bentley, nor the MPH special, but something that is beautiful, a car that is of the same epoque, and which makes me smile. Are we so bent on denying beauty in this day and age? It seems that there are those who only want to see a eurobox, it seems. To hell with seat belts and airbags. I still believe in freedom.
because I thought it should exist. It is registered as a 1952 Jaguar XK120, not some bloody special with a Q plate, and includes various parts of the original car. The body is of course not a standard XK120, but is a 120C (which according to the DVLA doesn't exist) or a C-type to the less informed. I am 100% behind bensport in creating a wonderful special, not an actual Bentley, nor the MPH special, but something that is beautiful, a car that is of the same epoque, and which makes me smile. Are we so bent on denying beauty in this day and age? It seems that there are those who only want to see a eurobox, it seems. To hell with seat belts and airbags. I still believe in freedom.
so do I, and I work in Health & Safety!
Of course Safety is important (for both drivers and those we might run over), as is avoiding vehicle identity theft and fraud, but a world without the ability to express one's own ideas and explore mechanical ingenuity is surely a poorer place for the burocracy!
:-)
Al
Of course Safety is important (for both drivers and those we might run over), as is avoiding vehicle identity theft and fraud, but a world without the ability to express one's own ideas and explore mechanical ingenuity is surely a poorer place for the burocracy!
:-)
Al
Fundamentally, Bensport are carrying out a rebody on a chassis that was offered to coachbuilders when new, as was the Rolls Royce. The entity of the Bentley is the group of components built in the Bentley factory. On that basis the car is not only rather nicely executed, but surely legitimate as a concept.
There can be no comparison with a monocoque car being rebodied, even a Range Rover or Land Rover, as the entire vehicle left the factory as an entity. Perhaps My point was missed earlier about vehicles such as Beacham Jaguars, where you have a heavily modified shell carrying a transplanted drivetrain/ interior/ dash/ wiring/ computers taken from a car thirty years newer, however well executed, with such a degree of content that one could possibly argue that it is in fact the later car that has been rebodied into the earlier shell, which is a whole new can of worms..... The Bensport has much more clarity.
There can be no comparison with a monocoque car being rebodied, even a Range Rover or Land Rover, as the entire vehicle left the factory as an entity. Perhaps My point was missed earlier about vehicles such as Beacham Jaguars, where you have a heavily modified shell carrying a transplanted drivetrain/ interior/ dash/ wiring/ computers taken from a car thirty years newer, however well executed, with such a degree of content that one could possibly argue that it is in fact the later car that has been rebodied into the earlier shell, which is a whole new can of worms..... The Bensport has much more clarity.
lowdrag said:
My God, someone with the actual sprit of motoring in his veins! I built this:-
because I thought it should exist. It is registered as a 1952 Jaguar XK120, not some bloody special with a Q plate, and includes various parts of the original car. The body is of course not a standard XK120, but is a 120C (which according to the DVLA doesn't exist) or a C-type to the less informed. I am 100% behind bensport in creating a wonderful special, not an actual Bentley, nor the MPH special, but something that is beautiful, a car that is of the same epoque, and which makes me smile. Are we so bent on denying beauty in this day and age? It seems that there are those who only want to see a eurobox, it seems. To hell with seat belts and airbags. I still believe in freedom.
Very lovely. And I suppose if you hadn't built it the 52 LM car would now be lost forever? I bet it doesn't overheat this time either! A perfect example of fun. Shame you could not find another pilot though. That old buffer doesn't look too safe to me. He once autographed a Silverstone program for my wife saying "there you are sonny"! Well, she was wearing a Jaguar Drivers Club cap at the time - shows how long ago that was. because I thought it should exist. It is registered as a 1952 Jaguar XK120, not some bloody special with a Q plate, and includes various parts of the original car. The body is of course not a standard XK120, but is a 120C (which according to the DVLA doesn't exist) or a C-type to the less informed. I am 100% behind bensport in creating a wonderful special, not an actual Bentley, nor the MPH special, but something that is beautiful, a car that is of the same epoque, and which makes me smile. Are we so bent on denying beauty in this day and age? It seems that there are those who only want to see a eurobox, it seems. To hell with seat belts and airbags. I still believe in freedom.
Obviously "Specials and Replicas" cover a very wide spectrum.
I'm considering a Jaguar Special which will use a new chassis and certain parts from a donor Jaguar.
As far as I can gather from the DVLA website I should be able to obtain an age-related registration based on the donor cars age, providing I use a pre-determined percentage of the donor vehicle. This is what I would want to achieve.
I haven't been able to find the exact details of how much of the original car I'm required to use, nor how this would be verified.
For example I would probably use the engine, gearbox, front suspension, instruments - as a minimum. Would this be enough ? If I used the rear suspension from a later Jaguar how would anyone know ?
I've recently spoken to a chap who built an Alvis Special last year. He used a 1930's Alvis rolling chassis. Different engine, different gearbox, new body. He arranged for the finished car to be inspected by an independent engineer (his selection) and was issued with the original identity as a convertible. Original was a saloon.
This seems to be contrary to the requirements of the DVLA and yet he did it in a completely open manner and didn't try to fool anyone.
I'm considering a Jaguar Special which will use a new chassis and certain parts from a donor Jaguar.
As far as I can gather from the DVLA website I should be able to obtain an age-related registration based on the donor cars age, providing I use a pre-determined percentage of the donor vehicle. This is what I would want to achieve.
I haven't been able to find the exact details of how much of the original car I'm required to use, nor how this would be verified.
For example I would probably use the engine, gearbox, front suspension, instruments - as a minimum. Would this be enough ? If I used the rear suspension from a later Jaguar how would anyone know ?
I've recently spoken to a chap who built an Alvis Special last year. He used a 1930's Alvis rolling chassis. Different engine, different gearbox, new body. He arranged for the finished car to be inspected by an independent engineer (his selection) and was issued with the original identity as a convertible. Original was a saloon.
This seems to be contrary to the requirements of the DVLA and yet he did it in a completely open manner and didn't try to fool anyone.
Mistron said:
So, here is a theoretical proposition:
Rusty rear wheel drive classic - Midget, MGB, Herald, that sort of thing. Can it be built into a new chassis?
if the original engine / box / axle / steering are used?
Suspension would have to be original units as well - wishbones, lever arm dampers and leaf springs.
The resultant 'car' could have a 'new' chassis and body?
What then if the engine is worn - could a replacement unit be used? What if the 'donor' vehicle had already had a replacement?
Heritage bodyshells allow this, but I guess they have approval of some kindRusty rear wheel drive classic - Midget, MGB, Herald, that sort of thing. Can it be built into a new chassis?
if the original engine / box / axle / steering are used?
Suspension would have to be original units as well - wishbones, lever arm dampers and leaf springs.
The resultant 'car' could have a 'new' chassis and body?
What then if the engine is worn - could a replacement unit be used? What if the 'donor' vehicle had already had a replacement?
bensport said:
Big money is involved and the unwary get caught. Fun yes, fraud no.
This is my main concern whenever I read about a "special".I’ve heard of more than one case where people buy a regular chassis from various manufacturers for small money, rebody them complete with artificial patina, register the cars using some questionable insider methods and then offer the car for sale complete with blatantly faked history and racing provenance for big money.
Fortunately some people make sure the the VINs and real stories of these cars are "out there" but it only takes one buyer who doesn’t know how to use google…
I really like "honest", self built specials because the "real", rare and beautiful models are all locked away and never see the street. But people who build cars and present/sell them as something that they are clearly not really get my blood boiling. Sadly where I live the latter outnumber the former by far.
mph said:
Obviously "Specials and Replicas" cover a very wide spectrum.
I'm considering a Jaguar Special which will use a new chassis and certain parts from a donor Jaguar.
As far as I can gather from the DVLA website I should be able to obtain an age-related registration based on the donor cars age, providing I use a pre-determined percentage of the donor vehicle. This is what I would want to achieve.
I haven't been able to find the exact details of how much of the original car I'm required to use, nor how this would be verified.
For example I would probably use the engine, gearbox, front suspension, instruments - as a minimum. Would this be enough? If I used the rear suspension from a later Jaguar how would anyone know?
MPH, with what you're proposing above I'm pretty sure that you will be able to obtain an age-related registration. I'm considering a Jaguar Special which will use a new chassis and certain parts from a donor Jaguar.
As far as I can gather from the DVLA website I should be able to obtain an age-related registration based on the donor cars age, providing I use a pre-determined percentage of the donor vehicle. This is what I would want to achieve.
I haven't been able to find the exact details of how much of the original car I'm required to use, nor how this would be verified.
For example I would probably use the engine, gearbox, front suspension, instruments - as a minimum. Would this be enough? If I used the rear suspension from a later Jaguar how would anyone know?
Pop over to here.. http://www.rodsnsods.co.uk/forum/licensing-legal-s... and PM Kapri, Kev will be able to give you chapter and verse with 100% certainty.
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