1980 Lotus Elite 504
Discussion
LewG said:
Looks great! I'm sure it'll be a hoot to drive, are decent tyres still available in that size?
Yep, Falken do 205 60 14's from about £65 eachmarshalla said:
There are some good ideas for improvements in this presentation from Mike Taylor :
http://www.lotusbits.com/improving_your_lotus.pdf
Cheers for that http://www.lotusbits.com/improving_your_lotus.pdf
Ozzie Dave said:
from the diff photo that looks like the original fuel pipe, it looks it, please chaeck it as if it has gome brittle anywhere you will have a problem.
Noticed your advice earlier in the thread Dave, cheers for that , will be changing the line for better stuff, want to get all the suspension sorted first though. OK you have a belt with square teeth, change the belts and pullies to the latter round tooth ones, and try to get a manual tensioner to replace the auto one, they are no big problem to keep tension right, the square teeth belts can jump.
There are all sort of mods out there for the 900, 200+bhp is easy but not cheap, and very hard to get as a reliable engine, I was getting 240 without a turbo, but was rebuilding every year. 180bhp is nice in road car and very easy to get.
There are all sort of mods out there for the 900, 200+bhp is easy but not cheap, and very hard to get as a reliable engine, I was getting 240 without a turbo, but was rebuilding every year. 180bhp is nice in road car and very easy to get.
Once again thanks for the interest and the great advice guys, really appreciate it 
Suffered a slight setback last night, my daily driver 300tdi Disco started chucking out loads of blue smoke and running rough, recon it needs piston rings or possibly an engine rebuild (there is back pressure too)
, sods frigging law as my BMW is for sale so if that goes i'm left with no useable car 
Been thinking about it today and out the two the Lotus will be easier to get useable, at least it runs, if i sort the drive shafts, tyres, trunnions, fuel lines, get the motor running better, lights, wiper blade, MOT (due on the 5th of next month) so i think i'll forget the Disco for now and steam ahead with the Lotus
Fortunately i dont really need a car for work etc.
Suffered a slight setback last night, my daily driver 300tdi Disco started chucking out loads of blue smoke and running rough, recon it needs piston rings or possibly an engine rebuild (there is back pressure too)
, sods frigging law as my BMW is for sale so if that goes i'm left with no useable car Been thinking about it today and out the two the Lotus will be easier to get useable, at least it runs, if i sort the drive shafts, tyres, trunnions, fuel lines, get the motor running better, lights, wiper blade, MOT (due on the 5th of next month) so i think i'll forget the Disco for now and steam ahead with the Lotus
Fortunately i dont really need a car for work etc.
Couple of interesting developments tonight, removed the airbox to check the Dizzy (first step in trying to get the car to run properly, Dizzy, Timing then Carbs), found the Dizzy cap loose and signs of the rotor arm hitting the electrodes so looks like that may have been the running problem, engine is still running points but these, the condenser, cap and rotor arm all look new so just going to clean and check everything and set the ignition timing.
Access to the Dizzy is pretty good with the airbox removed, will still need to pull the Dizzy out though to set the points properly.
Pulled the spark plugs out and found they were Accuspark multi electrode things, think i'll be replacing these with standard Bosch or NGK plugs.
Stripped the drive shafts down and found some of the U/J bearing caps quite a loose fit so will probably need to stake (sp ?) the flanges and shafts to tighten the caps up, long term will look for a better pair of shafts.
Front Trunnions have been pumped full of grease, probably to take out play so will definitely be stripping (and probably replacing) these.
Access to the Dizzy is pretty good with the airbox removed, will still need to pull the Dizzy out though to set the points properly.
Pulled the spark plugs out and found they were Accuspark multi electrode things, think i'll be replacing these with standard Bosch or NGK plugs.
Stripped the drive shafts down and found some of the U/J bearing caps quite a loose fit so will probably need to stake (sp ?) the flanges and shafts to tighten the caps up, long term will look for a better pair of shafts.
Front Trunnions have been pumped full of grease, probably to take out play so will definitely be stripping (and probably replacing) these.
Mark,
Don't use 'Jubilee' clips on small diameter hose use the sort that close without nipping the hose. Sorry but I can't remember what they are called at the moment.
Small Jubilee clips do not tighten enough but the other sort do.
Get rid of the copper pipe it's not right!
Sign up on: http://www.lotusexcel.net/phpbb/index.php
In there you will find a bit about changing the cam belt on an Excel - pretty much the same engine and a lot of fellow Lotus owners that will give you a lot of help.
I have Morgan Carbtune:
http://www.carbtune.co.uk/
You are welcome to borrow if you want. It takes a bit of time but is well worth it.
I used to own an Excel and one day I will have another so please don't tell everyone just how good these cars are as it only puts the prices up!
Don't use 'Jubilee' clips on small diameter hose use the sort that close without nipping the hose. Sorry but I can't remember what they are called at the moment.
Small Jubilee clips do not tighten enough but the other sort do.
Get rid of the copper pipe it's not right!
Sign up on: http://www.lotusexcel.net/phpbb/index.php
In there you will find a bit about changing the cam belt on an Excel - pretty much the same engine and a lot of fellow Lotus owners that will give you a lot of help.
I have Morgan Carbtune:
http://www.carbtune.co.uk/
You are welcome to borrow if you want. It takes a bit of time but is well worth it.
I used to own an Excel and one day I will have another so please don't tell everyone just how good these cars are as it only puts the prices up!
I wondered if you had seen this thread Steve, the copper pipe is interesting isn't it.
My Elite had a problem in the same area, the steel coolant pipe spigot that is pressed into the head had corroded away and I had to araldite a repair into place, this was on a 6 year old car so lord knows what state todays cars are in.
I would guess though that with better antifreeze and oils available now the durability of these engines will be a lot better than it was when Castrol GTX was the best you could get.
My Elite had a problem in the same area, the steel coolant pipe spigot that is pressed into the head had corroded away and I had to araldite a repair into place, this was on a 6 year old car so lord knows what state todays cars are in.
I would guess though that with better antifreeze and oils available now the durability of these engines will be a lot better than it was when Castrol GTX was the best you could get.
Markgenesis said:
Couple of interesting developments tonight, removed the airbox to check the Dizzy (first step in trying to get the car to run properly, Dizzy, Timing then Carbs), found the Dizzy cap loose and signs of the rotor arm hitting the electrodes so looks like that may have been the running problem, engine is still running points but these, the condenser, cap and rotor arm all look new so just going to clean and check everything and set the ignition timing.
Access to the Dizzy is pretty good with the airbox removed, will still need to pull the Dizzy out though to set the points properly.
Pulled the spark plugs out and found they were Accuspark multi electrode things, think i'll be replacing these with standard Bosch or NGK plugs.
Stripped the drive shafts down and found some of the U/J bearing caps quite a loose fit so will probably need to stake (sp ?) the flanges and shafts to tighten the caps up, long term will look for a better pair of shafts.
Front Trunnions have been pumped full of grease, probably to take out play so will definitely be stripping (and probably replacing) these.
There is a lot of debate in Lotus circles about trunnion greasing and many (most?) insisting that oiling them as originally specified is the only way to go. Other's (me included) just use normal moly grease. I've had old Lotuses of various types (including an Elite 503) for 20 years and always greased and never had an issue, even though I use the cars for track days etc. My Elan has had a fair bit of use and miss-use on and off track over 15 years and it's still using the trunnions that were on it when I got it. I think it less important what you lubricate them with , so long as you lubricate regularly. (I'm sure someone will be along to tell me that they had a personal chat with Colin Chapman who told them never to use grease)Access to the Dizzy is pretty good with the airbox removed, will still need to pull the Dizzy out though to set the points properly.
Pulled the spark plugs out and found they were Accuspark multi electrode things, think i'll be replacing these with standard Bosch or NGK plugs.
Stripped the drive shafts down and found some of the U/J bearing caps quite a loose fit so will probably need to stake (sp ?) the flanges and shafts to tighten the caps up, long term will look for a better pair of shafts.
Front Trunnions have been pumped full of grease, probably to take out play so will definitely be stripping (and probably replacing) these.
S..
skeggysteve said:
Mark,
Don't use 'Jubilee' clips on small diameter hose use the sort that close without nipping the hose. Sorry but I can't remember what they are called at the moment.
Small Jubilee clips do not tighten enough but the other sort do.
Mikalor clamps?Don't use 'Jubilee' clips on small diameter hose use the sort that close without nipping the hose. Sorry but I can't remember what they are called at the moment.
Small Jubilee clips do not tighten enough but the other sort do.
Lovely car by the way OP, really inspiring me to crack on with my Scimitar when I'm back in the UK
skeggysteve said:
Mark,
Don't use 'Jubilee' clips on small diameter hose use the sort that close without nipping the hose. Sorry but I can't remember what they are called at the moment.
Small Jubilee clips do not tighten enough but the other sort do.
Get rid of the copper pipe it's not right!
Sign up on: http://www.lotusexcel.net/phpbb/index.php
In there you will find a bit about changing the cam belt on an Excel - pretty much the same engine and a lot of fellow Lotus owners that will give you a lot of help.
I have Morgan Carbtune:
http://www.carbtune.co.uk/
You are welcome to borrow if you want. It takes a bit of time but is well worth it.
I used to own an Excel and one day I will have another so please don't tell everyone just how good these cars are as it only puts the prices up!
I know they are not ideal but i've never had a problem with Jubilee type clamps, will look into an alternative though as i agree they are not great looking.Don't use 'Jubilee' clips on small diameter hose use the sort that close without nipping the hose. Sorry but I can't remember what they are called at the moment.
Small Jubilee clips do not tighten enough but the other sort do.
Get rid of the copper pipe it's not right!
Sign up on: http://www.lotusexcel.net/phpbb/index.php
In there you will find a bit about changing the cam belt on an Excel - pretty much the same engine and a lot of fellow Lotus owners that will give you a lot of help.
I have Morgan Carbtune:
http://www.carbtune.co.uk/
You are welcome to borrow if you want. It takes a bit of time but is well worth it.
I used to own an Excel and one day I will have another so please don't tell everyone just how good these cars are as it only puts the prices up!
Also going to tidy up the metal overbraid, it's covering the fabric covered type fuel hose, was never keen on that stuff, prefer the plain rubber hose.
Knew the copper pipe was a bodge but what's meant to be there ?, heater take off pipe on the head looks fine.
TBH there are quite a few bodges on this car, a fair amount of tidying needs to be done (some of the wiring is a mess), my main priority at the moment is to get the car running properly and road worthy, get some use out of it while the weather is decent, then sort the details later.
Cant wait to get it outside, at least into the street to take some decent pics.
Cheers for the link the the Excel forum, that will come in handy, also cheers for the offer on the carbtune, will see how it's running after i set the points, plugs and timing.
I have been told about a classic car garage in Glasgow who are meant to be good at setting up twin Dellorto or Webber carbs so that's an option too.
Before the Elite I ran Scimitars for years which as they use Triumph TR front suspension have a bigger version of the trunion system on the Elite.
I always greased them, never had a problem. The only cars I've seen where the grease went hard had been negected for years.
The theory with trunnions using oil is that the trunnion is supposed to be like a little cup full of oil and as the steering works and the upright screws in and out of the trunnion, the end of the thread dips in and out of the pool of oil keeping it lubricated.
Fine in theory but oil flows downhill and grease doesn't so I reckon greasing regularly is more likely to keep lubricant where it's needed all the way up the thread.
I always greased them, never had a problem. The only cars I've seen where the grease went hard had been negected for years.
The theory with trunnions using oil is that the trunnion is supposed to be like a little cup full of oil and as the steering works and the upright screws in and out of the trunnion, the end of the thread dips in and out of the pool of oil keeping it lubricated.
Fine in theory but oil flows downhill and grease doesn't so I reckon greasing regularly is more likely to keep lubricant where it's needed all the way up the thread.
The trouble with Jubilee clips on small diameter pipe is that they don't fully seal.
Copper pipe is soft so tightening up the clip with deform the copper pipe and it could leak. I'd say that there should be steel pipe there, if I was you I'd replace it with stainless pipe - a fit and forget solution.
Check out all the bodges, if they look safe then fine but if not sort them before using the car!
Cheers for the helpfull advice Steve and Jay.
Going to strip the Trunnions anyway, if any doubt i'll replace them, was reading on a Triumph forum that if you buy a car and dont know the history then it's best to replace them for peace of mind.
Also suspicious of the amount of grease around them, in my experience people tend to pack a worn joint (when it has a grease nipple) with grease in the hope it'll somehow take out wear (which never works), the rear U/J's were plastered with grease and they were worn so i'm suspecting the same of the Trunnions.
Got the back of the car stuck on stands just now but i'll see if i can get the front in the air tomorrow.
Todays progress, pulled the Distributor out, checked and set the points, fitted a set of new NGK plugs, fired the motor up, managed to get the ignition timing set but still seemed to be running rough, idle got slower and slower, tried to catch it and it died then wouldn't start, following some investigation the fuel pump is dead, maybe that was the cause of the running problems all along, it's still the standard SU pump so good excuse to upgrade to a Facet, will fit a pressure regulator, new fuel lines and filter at the same time.
Also got the rear U/J's ordered from SJSportscars, bought a new throttle cable too so hopefully get those sorted next week.
Going to strip the Trunnions anyway, if any doubt i'll replace them, was reading on a Triumph forum that if you buy a car and dont know the history then it's best to replace them for peace of mind.
Also suspicious of the amount of grease around them, in my experience people tend to pack a worn joint (when it has a grease nipple) with grease in the hope it'll somehow take out wear (which never works), the rear U/J's were plastered with grease and they were worn so i'm suspecting the same of the Trunnions.
Got the back of the car stuck on stands just now but i'll see if i can get the front in the air tomorrow.
Todays progress, pulled the Distributor out, checked and set the points, fitted a set of new NGK plugs, fired the motor up, managed to get the ignition timing set but still seemed to be running rough, idle got slower and slower, tried to catch it and it died then wouldn't start, following some investigation the fuel pump is dead, maybe that was the cause of the running problems all along, it's still the standard SU pump so good excuse to upgrade to a Facet, will fit a pressure regulator, new fuel lines and filter at the same time.
Also got the rear U/J's ordered from SJSportscars, bought a new throttle cable too so hopefully get those sorted next week.
Couldn't sleep last night so ended up doing a bit of a night shift 
Managed to get the front end safely up on stands.
Checked the front suspension, brakes etc, surprised to find it's actually all pretty good, no wear detected in the Trunnions and the grease surrounding them looked pretty fresh (wiped it all off) so may just try pumping fresh stuff through, top ball joints look new, discs, pads, flexy hoses, shocks, springs, steering gaiters, track rod ends, brake pipes, bushes are all sound, found a bit of play an the O/S wheel bearing but thats about it.
Found this rot in the front chassis extension though, did check this area when i was buying the car but uncovered this after stabbing it with a chissel, something you cant really do when viewing a car unfortunately, no worries though, will fire up the sparky electric glue gun later.
Ripped out the old SU pump, tried shorting it out on a battery, coaxed it back to life ater bashing it a bit but it soon stopped again.
The standard plastic fuel line looks a swine to replace, looks like it goes through the chassis, thought about routing it along the brake pipe but it'd be too close to the exhaust, may consider routing the new metal line through the inside of the car.
Managed to get the front end safely up on stands.
Checked the front suspension, brakes etc, surprised to find it's actually all pretty good, no wear detected in the Trunnions and the grease surrounding them looked pretty fresh (wiped it all off) so may just try pumping fresh stuff through, top ball joints look new, discs, pads, flexy hoses, shocks, springs, steering gaiters, track rod ends, brake pipes, bushes are all sound, found a bit of play an the O/S wheel bearing but thats about it.
Found this rot in the front chassis extension though, did check this area when i was buying the car but uncovered this after stabbing it with a chissel, something you cant really do when viewing a car unfortunately, no worries though, will fire up the sparky electric glue gun later.
Ripped out the old SU pump, tried shorting it out on a battery, coaxed it back to life ater bashing it a bit but it soon stopped again.
The standard plastic fuel line looks a swine to replace, looks like it goes through the chassis, thought about routing it along the brake pipe but it'd be too close to the exhaust, may consider routing the new metal line through the inside of the car.
It's interesting to see how similar the front suspension is on the Elite compared to the Elan +2... On the subject of which the front cross member on a +2 is used as a vacuum reservoir for the mechanism that raises/lowers the headlights. The vacuum feed for this runs of the inlet manifold and the front cross member normally contains an explosive mixture of fuel vapour/condensed fuel. As a result welding in and around it can be very dangerous. I'm not sure that the Elite will have the same arrangement but probably a good idea to do so if you're about to attack those brackets with the electric sparky glue gun!!
marshalla said:
Re the SU pump - Burlen do a kit to convert it from points to an electronic system - that turns it into a very reliable pump which still looks original.
Ah, didn't know that, only trouble is i've bent and mashed the bracket to bits trying to get to a siezed lower bolt , will still look into it though, but this car is so far removed from the spec it left the factory with i'm not too bothered about originality.Had my mind set on a Facet Silvertop anyway as i had one in my last Mini and loved it, been looking for an excuse to buy another.
Only trouble is they run at 4 psi so will need a regulator to stop the Dellortos flooding.
Lotus 50 said:
It's interesting to see how similar the front suspension is on the Elite compared to the Elan +2... On the subject of which the front cross member on a +2 is used as a vacuum reservoir for the mechanism that raises/lowers the headlights. The vacuum feed for this runs of the inlet manifold and the front cross member normally contains an explosive mixture of fuel vapour/condensed fuel. As a result welding in and around it can be very dangerous. I'm not sure that the Elite will have the same arrangement but probably a good idea to do so if you're about to attack those brackets with the electric sparky glue gun!!
This Elite has the same vacume headlight system with acres of hose.Cheers for the concern, i'll wait till the car is out in the drive before welding, the garage is full of petrol fumes at the moment anyway (and it's timber)
Always stay safe when welding anyway, always have a fire extinguisher handy and my fast running shoes on just incase
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