Best Investment?
Discussion
thegreenhell said:
There will come a point where people suddenly think "f
k it, these cars aren't worth these ridiculous prices", and then the ripples of realisation will quickly start to spread, and non-enthusiasts or those only in it for the money will start to panic sell as prices tumble back to normality. It doesn't need a global financial market event to trigger this. It's just a simple fact that a lot of cars are now massively over-inflated from their true worth. Lots of people are still paying these prices because they are greedy and expect them to keep on growing, not because the cars are worth it. It isn't sustainable forever, no matter what the other markets do.
I don't think so. Not this time. Everyone I've spoken to says the same thing: the buyers these days are enthusiasts, collectors and racers, not speculators. k it, these cars aren't worth these ridiculous prices", and then the ripples of realisation will quickly start to spread, and non-enthusiasts or those only in it for the money will start to panic sell as prices tumble back to normality. It doesn't need a global financial market event to trigger this. It's just a simple fact that a lot of cars are now massively over-inflated from their true worth. Lots of people are still paying these prices because they are greedy and expect them to keep on growing, not because the cars are worth it. It isn't sustainable forever, no matter what the other markets do.As for their worth, they're no different to paintings, houses, watches and even jewellery. Their is no intrinsic worth, all the value is market and demand based. So theoretically, the sky's the limit.
Im willing to bet that in 1995 when the 250LM in the other thread sold for £350,000, everyone was muttering that prices had gone berserk.
Back on topic: the 930 turbo.
corporalsparrow said:
thegreenhell said:
There will come a point where people suddenly think "fk it, these cars aren't worth these ridiculous prices", and then the ripples of realisation will quickly start to spread, and non-enthusiasts or those only in it for the money will start to panic sell as prices tumble back to normality. It doesn't need a global financial market event to trigger this. It's just a simple fact that a lot of cars are now massively over-inflated from their true worth. Lots of people are still paying these prices because they are greedy and expect them to keep on growing, not because the cars are worth it. It isn't sustainable forever, no matter what the other markets do.
I don't think so. Not this time. Everyone I've spoken to says the same thing: the buyers these days are enthusiasts, collectors and racers, not speculators. k it, these cars aren't worth these ridiculous prices", and then the ripples of realisation will quickly start to spread, and non-enthusiasts or those only in it for the money will start to panic sell as prices tumble back to normality. It doesn't need a global financial market event to trigger this. It's just a simple fact that a lot of cars are now massively over-inflated from their true worth. Lots of people are still paying these prices because they are greedy and expect them to keep on growing, not because the cars are worth it. It isn't sustainable forever, no matter what the other markets do.As for their worth, they're no different to paintings, houses, watches and even jewellery. Their is no intrinsic worth, all the value is market and demand based. So theoretically, the sky's the limit.
Im willing to bet that in 1995 when the 250LM in the other thread sold for £350,000, everyone was muttering that prices had gone berserk.
Back on topic: the 930 turbo.
There's a dealer selling an Aston that I have my eye on. It has been advertised for a good few months at £118k but not sold. To me then it is perhaps overpriced but the dealer thinks otherwise.....It's now up for £148k. Nothing has been done to it, it is exactly the same car. Maybe he is selling on commission and the owner has demanded the increase? Who knows but in a normal market that simply would not happen....
Another example is a 993 Turbo for £100k, just madness. It simply is not worth that sort of money, it's not unique as they made thousands of them. It's the last of the aircooled models but so what? The earlier cars are all just as nice and arguably rarer. Later ones are much faster and easier to drive. What makes it worth 4 times the price of a 996tt? It's just an old car that's a toy to be used sparingly on a nice days. Only speculators can be pushing the prices up to that level.
I would be very careful spending these sorts of sums on an old car unless you can afford to lose the money.... remember investments can go down as well as up.
I think the best classic car investment is the car you truly like, not the one that is the quickest to rise in value. If you can find a car that does both then go for it.
The market for air cooled 911s is currently somewhat overheated but the early cars are still undervalued compared to other italian cars of the same period.
The key thing about early 911s is that they are really unique and not quite like any other car. The light steering, the sound, the way it carries itself through corners. They may not be very fast or very pretty but they do feel very special.
You really have to drive one to "get it". Only 7 years ago I almost hated early 911s because there are so many around at every gathering but... there is a reason why.
This article describes it quite well:
http://jalopnik.com/i-drove-a-vintage-porsche-and-...
If I had to choose one car from your list it would be the E46 M3 CSL. Only because there’s already an early 911 in our garage.
The market for air cooled 911s is currently somewhat overheated but the early cars are still undervalued compared to other italian cars of the same period.
The key thing about early 911s is that they are really unique and not quite like any other car. The light steering, the sound, the way it carries itself through corners. They may not be very fast or very pretty but they do feel very special.
You really have to drive one to "get it". Only 7 years ago I almost hated early 911s because there are so many around at every gathering but... there is a reason why.
This article describes it quite well:
http://jalopnik.com/i-drove-a-vintage-porsche-and-...
If I had to choose one car from your list it would be the E46 M3 CSL. Only because there’s already an early 911 in our garage.
EricE said:
I think the best classic car investment is the car you truly like, not the one that is the quickest to rise in value. If you can find a car that does both then go for it.
<snip>
Wot EricE said.... this isn't a dress rehearsal so get something you can appreciate rather than something that appreciates on it's own.<snip>
cheers
Nick
Mate, i have to say, I think you missed the boat on pretty much all of them, aside the mere maybe.
You want an appreciating classic.. For less money, I would go for a nice Audi Quattro, or RS2, perhaps a Clio Williams or for your budget a Turbo 2. Nice 74 BMW 2002 Turbo perhaps... Make an offer as no one is buying them at 35 to 40k.
I bought the following over the past couple of years:
Lancia Delta Integrale Evo 2 (already gone up by 10k in classifieds.
BMW E30 M3. Gone crazy in last year.
Long termer... Got a Porsche 911 GT3 997 Gen 2. Last of the manual GT3. Awesome car.. More fun that all of them and if you buy in Dubai... Half the price of Europe.
I would steer clear of a Ferrari... Unless you go in with eyes open on repair costs. Of course... This is just my opinion. I would look at later 80s, early 90s stuff.. Limited runs which hasn't already gone bonkers.
You want an appreciating classic.. For less money, I would go for a nice Audi Quattro, or RS2, perhaps a Clio Williams or for your budget a Turbo 2. Nice 74 BMW 2002 Turbo perhaps... Make an offer as no one is buying them at 35 to 40k.
I bought the following over the past couple of years:
Lancia Delta Integrale Evo 2 (already gone up by 10k in classifieds.
BMW E30 M3. Gone crazy in last year.
Long termer... Got a Porsche 911 GT3 997 Gen 2. Last of the manual GT3. Awesome car.. More fun that all of them and if you buy in Dubai... Half the price of Europe.
I would steer clear of a Ferrari... Unless you go in with eyes open on repair costs. Of course... This is just my opinion. I would look at later 80s, early 90s stuff.. Limited runs which hasn't already gone bonkers.
CQ8 said:
I agree with TheGreenHell, there has been too much in the media about the investment potential of classic cars.... I really do believe prices are getting out of control and that we are way beyond what alot of cars are worth. Alot maybe being bought by 'enthusiasts' but they may still be buying them as an investment. If the market changes are they all going to be able to hang on? How are they financing them? Are they all cash buys or are some taking out finance? If interests rates go up (and people's costs go up as well, eg mortgage repayments) then I think we will see history repeating itself….
...I would be very careful spending these sorts of sums on an old car unless you can afford to lose the money.... remember investments can go down as well as up.
All of your comments presume that speculators are buying these cars. But that's the total opposite of my experience. Without exception, everyone I know with really valuable cars (and they are exclusively classics) have bought them outright without any borrowed money. ...I would be very careful spending these sorts of sums on an old car unless you can afford to lose the money.... remember investments can go down as well as up.
Many people proclaim that these cars are valued "beyond what they're worth". But valuations are acts of faith. There is nothing underpinning any valuation other than supply and demand. The 250GTO didn't meet expectations but it's hardly a crash when a 250MM in the same sale made $7.5million!
They're worth what a market says they're worth. Not what commentators would like the to be worth. I think values will stay solid, but spectacular increases will be the exception rather than the rule.
It's an old shout, but anything that young folks can't afford now, but will be able to afford when they are forty.
Look at Mini Coopers, Capri 2.8 Injections, Escort Mexicos, Escort Cosworth.
The problem with my theory is that cheap finance allows most young folk to drive most cars they want. The ones who can't get the finance to get a Focus ST will probably still be poor when they are 40. I wonder if today's Focus ST drivers wish they had a Cayman R?
I saw a Cayman GTS the other day, would that be a good shout or would the high VEDs for high performance cars kill them off before they are worth big money.
Top Tip. If you do think of a car to buy new, make sure that you register it. There is a brand new (almost zero miles) BMW Z1 that was never registered and it can't be registered as it doesn't meet the current emissions regulations.
Look at Mini Coopers, Capri 2.8 Injections, Escort Mexicos, Escort Cosworth.
The problem with my theory is that cheap finance allows most young folk to drive most cars they want. The ones who can't get the finance to get a Focus ST will probably still be poor when they are 40. I wonder if today's Focus ST drivers wish they had a Cayman R?
I saw a Cayman GTS the other day, would that be a good shout or would the high VEDs for high performance cars kill them off before they are worth big money.
Top Tip. If you do think of a car to buy new, make sure that you register it. There is a brand new (almost zero miles) BMW Z1 that was never registered and it can't be registered as it doesn't meet the current emissions regulations.
CQ8 said:
I agree with TheGreenHell, there has been too much in the media about the investment potential of classic cars.... I really do believe prices are getting out of control and that we are way beyond what alot of cars are worth. Alot maybe being bought by 'enthusiasts' but they may still be buying them as an investment. If the market changes are they all going to be able to hang on? How are they financing them? Are they all cash buys or are some taking out finance? If interests rates go up (and people's costs go up as well, eg mortgage repayments) then I think we will see history repeating itself.
There's a dealer selling an Aston that I have my eye on. It has been advertised for a good few months at £118k but not sold. To me then it is perhaps overpriced but the dealer thinks otherwise.....It's now up for £148k. Nothing has been done to it, it is exactly the same car. Maybe he is selling on commission and the owner has demanded the increase? Who knows but in a normal market that simply would not happen....
Another example is a 993 Turbo for £100k, just madness. It simply is not worth that sort of money, it's not unique as they made thousands of them. It's the last of the aircooled models but so what? The earlier cars are all just as nice and arguably rarer. Later ones are much faster and easier to drive. What makes it worth 4 times the price of a 996tt? It's just an old car that's a toy to be used sparingly on a nice days. Only speculators can be pushing the prices up to that level.
I would be very careful spending these sorts of sums on an old car unless you can afford to lose the money.... remember investments can go down as well as up.
When has the performance of a car compared to its newer version ever counted much towards its current value and desirability. A 997 Turbo may be faster and easier to drive than a 993 turbo but again, when has that ever had any bearing on a perceived value, maybe not everyone wants a car that is easy to drive. And no, I'm not coming from a position where I've just dropped 100k on a 993. There's a dealer selling an Aston that I have my eye on. It has been advertised for a good few months at £118k but not sold. To me then it is perhaps overpriced but the dealer thinks otherwise.....It's now up for £148k. Nothing has been done to it, it is exactly the same car. Maybe he is selling on commission and the owner has demanded the increase? Who knows but in a normal market that simply would not happen....
Another example is a 993 Turbo for £100k, just madness. It simply is not worth that sort of money, it's not unique as they made thousands of them. It's the last of the aircooled models but so what? The earlier cars are all just as nice and arguably rarer. Later ones are much faster and easier to drive. What makes it worth 4 times the price of a 996tt? It's just an old car that's a toy to be used sparingly on a nice days. Only speculators can be pushing the prices up to that level.
I would be very careful spending these sorts of sums on an old car unless you can afford to lose the money.... remember investments can go down as well as up.
corporalsparrow said:
All of your comments presume that speculators are buying these cars. But that's the total opposite of my experience. Without exception, everyone I know with really valuable cars (and they are exclusively classics) have bought them outright without any borrowed money.
Many people proclaim that these cars are valued "beyond what they're worth". But valuations are acts of faith. There is nothing underpinning any valuation other than supply and demand. The 250GTO didn't meet expectations but it's hardly a crash when a 250MM in the same sale made $7.5million!
They're worth what a market says they're worth. Not what commentators would like the to be worth. I think values will stay solid, but spectacular increases will be the exception rather than the rule.
There are speculators in the market - even owners and enthusiasts are beginning to speculate now. We're seeing more and more people walking into dealers and saying "I'd like to buy a classic car".There are also plenty of people borrowing money to buy them.Many people proclaim that these cars are valued "beyond what they're worth". But valuations are acts of faith. There is nothing underpinning any valuation other than supply and demand. The 250GTO didn't meet expectations but it's hardly a crash when a 250MM in the same sale made $7.5million!
They're worth what a market says they're worth. Not what commentators would like the to be worth. I think values will stay solid, but spectacular increases will be the exception rather than the rule.
To the OP - if you can get a good 930 Turbo for £40k I'd run with that.
I have two split screen Morris Minors here for inspection and work, one is a passable converted soft top, the other a shocking saloon. both were far too expensive, particularly the saloon, which will require at least its retail value in restoration to be any good at all, and should have had near to no value at all. Auction houses and dealers making idiots of wide eyed and ill informed speculators i'm afraid.
I'd throw early XR3 and XR3i's into the mix - keep them standard and they will start to go the way of the 2dr mk2 escort in a few years time.
Also mk2 golf gti's seem to have hit bottom and are on the rise - as with all of these, you have to find the most original, unmolsted examples you can.
For my money I'd spread your 30-40k over 3 or 4 of these early hot hatches and have a great time while they appreciate
Also mk2 golf gti's seem to have hit bottom and are on the rise - as with all of these, you have to find the most original, unmolsted examples you can.
For my money I'd spread your 30-40k over 3 or 4 of these early hot hatches and have a great time while they appreciate
Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff