Repaired barn find or damaged classic cars - end value.

[so called]

Hi All,
Just wanted to ask a little advise regarding the end values of cars that have been restored from a very poor condition barn find or for example a Cat D repaired car.

I have been considering an investment purchase and called into a dealer on the Continent this week to check out a couple of cars.
Both cars, being rare, low volume cars, turned out to be Cat D registered damaged and repaired cars.
The level of damage on the first was unclear but the repair work was not the best.
The second car and more rare than the first was immaculate and carried an inspection certificate for the repair work.

Both cars have prices that I consider to be ca., 20% down on UK prices hence my initial interest.

So, as it appears to be quite common to hear and see (on TV) of classic cars being repaired to very high standard (and some not so high) so to be as good as new, my question is do the restored/repaired classics demand a similar value to a classic car that has simply been well maintained.

Thanks.

[spoodler]

I would say that it very much depends on what you are calling a classic - any fifty/seventy year old car will have had major repairs by now so it's not an issue if repaired to a decent standard. On the other hand you may be referring to a ten year old exotic where perfect unmolested/never repaired examples are still available - in that case many buyers wouldn't touch one that is listed as "damaged repaired"...

[so called]

Thanks, you hit the nail on the head.
Its an 8 year old exotic but that was very limited in numbers over a two year production and was last produced 8 years ago.

Maybe not be the best investment.

[RichB]

If they're 8 year old cars then they are not barn finds. They were never lost
So, it's a Ferrari or something like that's been written off and repaired. Correct?

[so called]

RichB said:

If they're 8 year old cars then they are not barn finds. They were never lost
So, it's a Ferrari or something like that's been written off and repaired. Correct?

Yes.
I don't want to give too much detail as I know the dealer comes on PH and I haven't made my decision yet.
The damage wasn't too excessive and my inquiries are very complimentary about the repairs and additional work but also informed me that it needs some other more general work not related to the damage.
With the knowledge I have on the car now, I just need to understand if the car would be or never be accepted as 'good one'.

I think Spoodler confirmed my concerns.
Its fair that a very old car can suffer some damage over the years and the repairs don't detract but if its fairly new then not so.

Edited by so called on Friday 1st August 15:25

[RichB]

I tend to think of 8 years old as a modern car and so unless you're going to wait 20-25 years for your investment to pay off then I would worry. On the other hand if you're buying it because you want one of the type and it's a keeper then why worry? Your kids will get their inheritance because by then it will be a true 'classic'

[Flatinfourth]

Its worth remembering with high value sports and prestige cars, and often Ferraris, that parts prices are astronomical, so those that maximise their profit do so by unscrupulous means - such as stealing the parts donor car

[Yertis]

I find the 'Cat D' thing quite annoying. I had a 20valve Quattro that was Cat D and it was one of the most reliable cars I've ever owned. It was a bit ropey in one area (the boot floor) - the incident leading to the Cat D had been poorly repaired, but the car was at least 'honest'. On the other hand, I've also owned cars with apparently perfect history that were in truth complete nails.

[Flatinfourth]

Yertis said:

I find the 'Cat D' thing quite annoying. I had a 20valve Quattro that was Cat D and it was one of the most reliable cars I've ever owned. It was a bit ropey in one area (the boot floor) - the incident leading to the Cat D had been poorly repaired, but the car was at least 'honest'. On the other hand, I've also owned cars with apparently perfect history that were in truth complete nails.

Indeed, i bought a cat D Integrale for £1500 ten years ago, it was a fabulous car

[spoodler]

Both of my Harley Davidsons are "Cat' D" but it has never bothered me in the slightest as I had no intentions of them as an investment (or indeed, of ever selling) and both were massively cheaper than "non-Cat D". On the other hand I recently looked into buying a practically new Morgan three wheeler that had been the victim of a slight mishap and was amazed at some of the ramifications... inc' the fact that more than one of my, usually helpful, insurers wouldn't cover it at any price.
A mate sold his near twenty year old Harley recently and the buyer cried off at the last moment as it had been a "Cat D" when a couple of months old... ridiculous if you ask me but bound to have an effect on resale...

[Slidingpillar]

I suspect the problem with the nearly new Morgan is it's being measured by standards for modern cars when although it is modern, the construction techniques would be pretty familiar to anyone who has worked on a vintage car. I suspect a insurer more used to such things would judge it on a equable basis.

You'd be doing pretty well if you found one the age of mine (1930) that hadn't been 'written off' at some point in 80 years, just that they pre-date the current system. I'm reasonably convinced mine had a heavy frontal impact in the early 60s although insurance may have little to do with it at the time.

[gianlu]

I agree it really depends on what you want the car for.
Modern cars, the few with rising values, do not carry well the cat D stigma. Target Cars has 2 perfect examples, a tvr sagaris and a lotus 340r, which i understand from the forum they both seem to be accident repaired. Both being for sale since i can remember but simply won't shift. Both very low production runs, bot seeing very high increase in value, none buying one as an investment.

If you buy to enjoy the car, i.e. Drive it and not make it a garage queen, make sure it is repaired correctly and 'bag' yourself a bargain.

Edited by gianlu on Saturday 2nd August 08:03

[DanCat]

This wouldn't be a concerning a tvr would it, in Holland.
If it is maybe worth doing a search on them on here.

In my opinion it always casts.a shadow over the cars history though.

[anonymous-user]

I suggest that, whether a car is ancient or modern, unless it is a very rare and special sort of car, treating it as an investment is never a good idea. Outside the world of special high value vehicles, every car, whether old, new, classic, shed, or modern should be seen as a money pit*. We kid ourselves otherwise, but such is the reality. Unless you have the resources and skills to operate as a successful dealer, buy cars for fun/utility, not to make money.






* Slightly perversely, 500 quid sheds can buck this trend, sometimes, but even that may be a case of not spending or losing much,rather than making an actual turn.

[so called]

Ha Ha well done gianlu and DanCat, hardly gave any clues but you identified the car.

I called in to Target Cars last Wednesday on the way to Germany in my Tuscan.
As you say, TVR prices are rising quite steeply. With my Tuscan I paid only 24k for it in 2009 and its now easily into the 30's.
I was interested in a T350 that Target have. It is also a Cat D but I didn't realize until I got there.
The Sagaris looks absolutely fantastic in the flesh with certified repair work (listing the original damage) and from my inquiries has quite a bit more work done than just the repairs.
The Indy that looks after my Tuscan also knows this Sag and the original owner and so I have some useful info that I don't want to post online.

The cat D has stopped me from buying but I cant get the car out of my head

[tortop45]

Just see what that 250 gto sells for,that was a right off back in the day and killed its owner.......

[CarsOrBikes]

A cat D shouldn't be a problem, and can be the result of pretty trivial stuff as cars go, so much so that it is not compulsory to disclose them. If there is a photographic rebuild record proven to be of that vehicle then if the price is good, make sure it is value to you right now. Investment cars only eight years old aren't going to return much in the short term unless mint, so you're looking at long term retention, as you are going to have to wait for the competition to diminish, or beat those prices as now, so little return.

If it's about having one, that's ok. You do your research into it and enjoy it for what it is.

[DonkeyApple]

gianlu said:

I agree it really depends on what you want the car for.
Modern cars, the few with rising values, do not carry well the cat D stigma. Target Cars has 2 perfect examples, a tvr sagaris and a lotus 340r, which i understand from the forum they both seem to be accident repaired. Both being for sale since i can remember but simply won't shift. Both very low production runs, bot seeing very high increase in value, none buying one as an investment.

If you buy to enjoy the car, i.e. Drive it and not make it a garage queen, make sure it is repaired correctly and 'bag' yourself a bargain.

Edited by gianlu on Saturday 2nd August 08:03

That Sag is well known which is why Target have had it for a few years.

If it's the same one it was line green with weird body kit vents around the front of the doors.

There is a long thread on it from a long time ago in the TVR forum.

Also, while I know nothing of Target, I just wouldn't buy a British car from a Dutch dealer. When you look at a very large number of the classics they sell they are total junk. I spend a lot of time over in the Netherlands and Germany in business and I'm yet to get anything but guffaws when we talk about these classic dealers.

[Mellow Yellow]

DonkeyApple said:

That Sag is well known which is why Target have had it for a few years.

If this is correct (and the history suggests it is), it's bound to throw up a host of issues once it's subject to regular use. The fact that it's Cat D is always going to knock the price down by 20%. I think I'd be inclined to spend a bit more, there are other Sags with not many more miles on the clock for just a few £1,000 more.

Or, you could hang on a bit, there's a Gordon Keeble just come on the market, it's top end but I beleive one or two cheaper ones will come up in the next month or two if you're still interested.

[DonkeyApple]

Mellow Yellow said:

If this is correct (and the history suggests it is), it's bound to throw up a host of issues once it's subject to regular use. The fact that it's Cat D is always going to knock the price down by 20%. I think I'd be inclined to spend a bit more, there are other Sags with not many more miles on the clock for just a few £1,000 more.

Or, you could hang on a bit, there's a Gordon Keeble just come on the market, it's top end but I beleive one or two cheaper ones will come up in the next month or two if you're still interested.

Yes, I saw the GK. A friend had a good look over it at a meet the other week. By all accounts it's a stunner.

Had a few road trips in one this summer and they are lovely. Still have the Typhon and thinking about not selling.