Embarking on costly restoration - contract with restorer?

Embarking on costly restoration - contract with restorer?

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swisstoni

Original Poster:

16,853 posts

278 months

Friday 1st August 2014
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I'm likely to be getting a car restored for quite a lot of money in staged payments. The sums involved make me think that there should be a contract written up to protect both parties. The restorer is well known, produces phenomenal work but is not a big business operation; more of a low profile craftsman. He seems to have worked on a gentleman's agreement basis in the past with his many friends and contacts in the 'scene' he specialises in. He doesn't have a problem with using a contract though if I want to,

I'm probably going to speak to a solicitor but does anyone know of a template contract I could use or have any experience of the subject. I don't want to be a scaredy cat, but on the other hand "a fool and his money are soon parted" as my old Mum used to say.


POORCARDEALER

8,523 posts

240 months

Friday 1st August 2014
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swisstoni said:
I'm likely to be getting a car restored for quite a lot of money in staged payments. The sums involved make me think that there should be a contract written up to protect both parties. The restorer is well known, produces phenomenal work but is not a big business operation; more of a low profile craftsman. He seems to have worked on a gentleman's agreement basis in the past with his many friends and contacts in the 'scene' he specialises in. He doesn't have a problem with using a contract though if I want to,

I'm probably going to speak to a solicitor but does anyone know of a template contract I could use or have any experience of the subject. I don't want to be a scaredy cat, but on the other hand "a fool and his money are soon parted" as my old Mum used to say.
I think time scales are an important one to get on paper

The Surveyor

7,576 posts

236 months

Friday 1st August 2014
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You could try a PM to some of the guys on here who have had professional restorations done recently

SprintSpecial has had some beautiful work done by DTR on his Alfa SprintSpecial and is now embarking on a similar process with a Maserati GT. Both very complex projects which I'm sure had their share of hidden problems.

Or Lowdrag for his lovely E Type project.

Both may be able to give you some guidance on the structure of any agreement with your restorer.

The key for me would be whether the intention is for the work to be done for a fixed price, or at cost? As in, are you taking the risk on costs or are you passing this on to them?

Either way good luck and don't be shy, tell us what it is.

Paul

DB4DM

928 posts

122 months

Friday 1st August 2014
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If you have a contract, can you guarantee to meet your half of the bargain?

swisstoni

Original Poster:

16,853 posts

278 months

Friday 1st August 2014
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DB4DM said:
If you have a contract, can you guarantee to meet your half of the bargain?
If you mean pay for the work, then yes.

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 2nd August 2014
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There is much misunderstanding about contracts. You will have a contract with the restorer whether or not you make a written agreement. A contract can be made orally, inferred from conduct, or be contained in or evidenced by electronic or hard copy documents, including emails and texts. Whenever party A places a car with party B for B to work on the car A and B make a contract.

Only in a few contexts is a written contract a legal requisite (a contract to restore a car is not one of them), but the advantages of a well drafted written contract are that it provides clarity to all parties to the agreement, and makes resolving any disputes that arise easier.

There is no need for a contract to be lengthy or elaborate, and the best written contracts are short and expressed in plain English. Avoid templates and set out what you want the terms of the deal to be. Specify the scope of the work. Specify the price for the work and the time for payment. Specify the timescale for the work. Make provision for changes in scope, price and timescale, and for remedial work (snagging, if you like) at the end of the project.

Use a definitions clause if the contract is complex enough to warrant this, so as to avoid doubt as to what terms used in the contract mean. Include provision for alternative dispute resolution if you wish, and/or an expert determination clause for resolution of disputes about the cost of unforeseen works (ie: provision to refer any disagreement about this to a mutually trusted third party expert).

An express choice of governing law and jurisdiction is not necessary but can be helpful. An entire agreement clause (excluding reliance on pre-contractual statements) can also be helpful.

The restorer will be subject to an implicit obligation to carry out the work with reasonable care and skill, but you can spell this out if you wish.



Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 2nd August 11:05

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 2nd August 2014
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Any half decent solicitor should be able to draft you something adequate, but the go to guys for classic car related legal matters are Wilmots.

This page refers to their litigation work, but they could also help with the avoidance of litigation, and a tightly and fairly drawn contract is an effective litigation preventer.

http://www.wilmotslitigation.co.uk/classic-car-lit...

Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 2nd August 10:08

swisstoni

Original Poster:

16,853 posts

278 months

Saturday 2nd August 2014
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That's very useful breadvan. I will contact them. I just want something straightforward.

Flatinfourth

591 posts

137 months

Saturday 2nd August 2014
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swisstoni said:
That's very useful breadvan. I will contact them. I just want something straightforward.
Speaking as a restorer, I deal with clients both with and without contracts. If someone came to me with a contract that looked more like legalese than an agreement drawn up by gentlemen, I would be left wondering whether the client might be prone to vexatious behaviour?

I have watched as a client has drawn several businesses into contracts by shortening timescales and tightening budgets, so that when some small thing inevitably is delayed, the supplier can effectively only fail, thereby leaving the client in a position where he can choose not to pay, yet having had the job done

I think it is much better to gauge from your chosen restorer's clients how they find his work, and look at whether you match their personality as someone who has reasonable expectations, with an understanding posture. Then everything simply works without undue paperwork. Very few good restorers will tolerate an aggressive, ultimatum loaded posture from a client.

swisstoni

Original Poster:

16,853 posts

278 months

Saturday 2nd August 2014
quotequote all
Flatinfourth said:
swisstoni said:
That's very useful breadvan. I will contact them. I just want something straightforward.
Speaking as a restorer, I deal with clients both with and without contracts. If someone came to me with a contract that looked more like legalese than an agreement drawn up by gentlemen, I would be left wondering whether the client might be prone to vexatious behaviour?

I have watched as a client has drawn several businesses into contracts by shortening timescales and tightening budgets, so that when some small thing inevitably is delayed, the supplier can effectively only fail, thereby leaving the client in a position where he can choose not to pay, yet having had the job done

I think it is much better to gauge from your chosen restorer's clients how they find his work, and look at whether you match their personality as someone who has reasonable expectations, with an understanding posture. Then everything simply works without undue paperwork. Very few good restorers will tolerate an aggressive, ultimatum loaded posture from a client.
Yes it's a difficult line. I just want something simple, spelling out the agreement. not something that needs a law degree to understand.
Can I ask what sort of structure the contracts that you have worked to have been like?

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 2nd August 2014
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Flatinfourth said:
Speaking as a restorer, I deal with clients both with and without contracts. ...
There's the misunderstanding again. In fact you deal with all of your clients with contracts. Some of the contracts aren't written down, but they still exist.

A written contract need not and (if done properly) should not use arcane language, and it need not be viewed as a mechanism for one party to trap the other. It would be rare for one party to be able lawfully to avoid paying anything at all just because the other party missed a deadline.

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 3rd August 2014
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I don't see drafting the contract as the problem, the problem is defining the scope of work, assuming you are looking for a lump sum contract. I'm having my third car restored for my a very good guy who is also a mate, I pay by the hour and I get photos to show the work done, just simple things like doors can be a problem look ok, but take the door card off and there can be a mess. My guy usually has a few cars on the go and agrees a monthly spend, with each customer for labour, paint ets, then sends photos and progress reports.

Ahonen

5,015 posts

278 months

Sunday 3rd August 2014
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POORCARDEALER said:
I think time scales are an important one to get on paper
Yes, absolutely. I've spent the last few months battling with a bodyshop, trying to cajole them in finishing the paintwork on my restoration. It was going to be finished in '2-3 weeks' for nearly 5 months, which was incredibly frustrating. I can accept a delay of a couple of days here and there, but over a third of a year is something I can't understand.

Edited by Ahonen on Sunday 3rd August 18:00

alolympic

700 posts

196 months

Tuesday 5th August 2014
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Ahonen said:
Yes, absolutely. I've spent the last few months battling with a bodyshop, trying to cajole them in finishing the paintwork on my restoration. It was going to be finished in '2-3 weeks' for nearly 5 months, which was incredibly frustrating. I can accept a delay of a couple of days here and there, but over a third of a year is something I can't understand.

Edited by Ahonen on Sunday 3rd August 18:00
That sort of thing can be very frustrating. There is obviously some kind of barrier to them doing the work, ideally you get to the root cause e.g. They are prioritising better paid work that comes in because there isn't much in it for them, or they do not have the skills to do one aspect, or they do not have the cash flow to buy the paint up front, or they don't have an interest in the job/car and aren't motivated to do it. Are other cars coming and going while yours is still there?

johnfm

13,668 posts

249 months

Tuesday 5th August 2014
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I looked into creating a set of 'standard form' contracts specifically for car restoration - but I don't believe there would be sufficient uptake to pay for my efforts.

Though, as Breadvan says, there will be a 'contract' when the two parties agree that restorer will restore and owner will pay the charges, there are a lot of risks to allocate.

They are, as most risks, highly unlikely to occur. The issue to consider is that for some of them, if they do occur you could be left with no car and no recourse.

Insurance
Many restorers are not adequately insured. Even those that are may not be adhering to the terms of their insurance. What happens if there is a fire or theft and the restorer's insurer doesn't pay out? Make sure you have your own insurance. If your car's value is enhanced because it has 'matching numbers' engine and gearbox, make sure insurance covers a loss in value if those matching items are lost, damaged or destroyed.

Third parties
What happens if your restorer subs out the engine work or painting or upholstery to another company or individual and that third party suffers a fire, theft, or damages your irreplaceable matching numbers engine block or goes bust and sells your engine for cash to pay his bills etc.

Quality of Work
Unless you specify the standard of work you expect the restorer to achieve, you might struggle to argue when it is not up to your standards. If you expect a certain maximum paint thickness (this has been an issue for someone), then specify it so that the restorer knows it is critical to you.

Delays
This is usually the biggest issue with resto jobs. Restorer has a shed full of cars and takes yours on - promising completion in 12 months. 2 years later it is still unfinished. He says you owe him £10k. You don't want to pay it because he is at least a year behind schedule. What you going to do?

Pre-payments
Many restorers work on a 'pay me £10k up front and I will tell you when it has run out' basis. That's OK - but what happens if he is working 'hand to mouth' and he gets ill, or goes bust. You won't see it and he won't have segregated the cash - or your car and its parts for that matter. Make sure you agree what your money is to be used for if you make pre-payments.

At the end of the day, some restorers are a credit to the industry and some are charlatans who, once they have your car and some of your money, will take the piss - like dodgy builder or dodgy lawyers will do.

Choose wisely...

swisstoni

Original Poster:

16,853 posts

278 months

Tuesday 5th August 2014
quotequote all
Certainly food for thought here. As soon as more and more eventualities are catered for, the more the pages add up and start to look like the scary contract Flatinfourth is wary of. And does any company offer insurance for cars that are being restored? A quick Google and I can see Hagerty offer one in the US but it is not mentioned on their UK site.


anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 5th August 2014
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Flatinfourth appears to have a rather jaded view that a written contract is inherently something to be avoided. He appears to misunderstand what a written contract is for, and also appears to have a mistaken view as to the circumstances in which a customer could lawfully not pay for work done.

I reiterate that a written contract should fairly set out the responsibilities of all parties to it. It should not be a device for one party to trap another.

The contract could cover all likely eventualities without being unduly long or complex.

plasticpig

12,932 posts

224 months

Tuesday 5th August 2014
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Ahonen said:
Yes, absolutely. I've spent the last few months battling with a bodyshop, trying to cajole them in finishing the paintwork on my restoration. It was going to be finished in '2-3 weeks' for nearly 5 months, which was incredibly frustrating. I can accept a delay of a couple of days here and there, but over a third of a year is something I can't understand.

Edited by Ahonen on Sunday 3rd August 18:00
It can get a lot worse than that! The first major restoration project I had done the owner of the company restoring it died towards the end of the restoration. Then when having the hood rebuilt the guy rebuilding it broke his hand whilst racing motorbikes half way through....


occrj

370 posts

177 months

Wednesday 6th August 2014
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I'd certainly recommend getting any agreements on paper or email at least, they can come in very useful further down the restoration "road" if/when one or more parties starts to get vague over a particular pre-discussed matter.

Johnfm covers some interesting points in his post. You might want to consider agreeing a maximum cap for labour expenditure too, if you can get the restorer to agree to one. It isn't unknown for restorers to quote un-realistically low ££££ prior to taking on a big job, then for invoiced labour costs to spiral wayyyyy beyond any pre-discussed figure. It's important to factor in contingency funds for unexpected costs, in fairness to the restorer and to aid the car owner's own budget decisions, but the contingency needs to be sensible and not several multiples of the initial quotation.

On a side note and veering O/T somewhat, when the work is being undertaken, be a regular visitor to the workshop to keep an eye on progress. Keep copies of all correspondence, and even a simple diary of progress and mini-deadlines throughout the work.

Been here myself ... good luck with the resto smile

RJ

swisstoni

Original Poster:

16,853 posts

278 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
quotequote all
That's very useful breadvan. I will contact them. I just want something straightforward.