Driving classics
Discussion
Ladies & gents of the classic car forum, I don't know whether or not you ever dip your toes in to the advanced driving forum, but I've just posted a few thoughts on driving classic cars and whether it makes you a better all-round driver.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Feel free to add your thoughts.
Or not of course - its a free country.
Reg.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Feel free to add your thoughts.
Or not of course - its a free country.
Reg.
Seriously, and I'm not trying to be rude here, you understand, but...
... I've never read such a load of pretentious bo11ocks in many a long day.
I think it was the phrase "driving a classic also requires far greater delicacy with the controls", it almost reads as if you have experience and know what you're talking about! What about grabbing the car by the scruff of the neck and making it do what you want?
Please mate, stay over on your little niche "Advanced Driving"
area
... I've never read such a load of pretentious bo11ocks in many a long day.
I think it was the phrase "driving a classic also requires far greater delicacy with the controls", it almost reads as if you have experience and know what you're talking about! What about grabbing the car by the scruff of the neck and making it do what you want?
Please mate, stay over on your little niche "Advanced Driving"
areaSurprisingly hostile, to be honest.
I didn't think your article was far off the mark and certainly wouldn't take exception to the observation about thoughtful use of the controls. One of the major advances in car safety in the last twenty years or so is their ability to mask mishandling.
We were in our formative driving years at about the same time, though different locations, and the handling of cars even in the early 80s was vastly less forgiving than it is in modern kit.
Keep going with the articles - many of us enjoy them.
I didn't think your article was far off the mark and certainly wouldn't take exception to the observation about thoughtful use of the controls. One of the major advances in car safety in the last twenty years or so is their ability to mask mishandling.
We were in our formative driving years at about the same time, though different locations, and the handling of cars even in the early 80s was vastly less forgiving than it is in modern kit.
Keep going with the articles - many of us enjoy them.
9xxNick said:
Surprisingly hostile, to be honest.
I didn't think your article was far off the mark and certainly wouldn't take exception to the observation about thoughtful use of the controls. One of the major advances in car safety in the last twenty years or so is their ability to mask mishandling.
We were in our formative driving years at about the same time, though different locations, and the handling of cars even in the early 80s was vastly less forgiving than it is in modern kit.
Keep going with the articles - many of us enjoy them.
Yeah, me too. My motoring career started with a MK2 1100 Escort with unservoed drum brakes all round. Taught me a lot more than a modern car would.I didn't think your article was far off the mark and certainly wouldn't take exception to the observation about thoughtful use of the controls. One of the major advances in car safety in the last twenty years or so is their ability to mask mishandling.
We were in our formative driving years at about the same time, though different locations, and the handling of cars even in the early 80s was vastly less forgiving than it is in modern kit.
Keep going with the articles - many of us enjoy them.
/Monty Python mode
Luxury - I had a 650cc Fiat 126 with 23bhp and drums all round. Mind you, the brakes were massively more effective than those of the Honda N600 which preceded it. The 55bhp Fiat 127CL which followed the 126 seemed like a rocket-ship by comparison, and also had disks on the front.
/MPm off
Luxury - I had a 650cc Fiat 126 with 23bhp and drums all round. Mind you, the brakes were massively more effective than those of the Honda N600 which preceded it. The 55bhp Fiat 127CL which followed the 126 seemed like a rocket-ship by comparison, and also had disks on the front.
/MPm off
This is the point of all that waffle; two simple questions in the final paragraph:
"Have modern cars generally reduced the overall skill levels of normal, everyday drivers? Does experience with a classic (shed or otherwise) make you a better driver?"
The rest of it is entirely unnecessary. My answer to each question would be "Yes,"
"Have modern cars generally reduced the overall skill levels of normal, everyday drivers? Does experience with a classic (shed or otherwise) make you a better driver?"
The rest of it is entirely unnecessary. My answer to each question would be "Yes,"
Likewise strummerville. Haven't seen that kind of hostility on this forum very often - even Pothole seems to have mellowed 
I started driving around the same time as the OP in mk2 Ecsort 1300 sport. Even with its distinct lack of power you could push the tail out at every round about and four wheel drift on every 'fast' corner. A great way to learn about rwd handling and all at relatively pedestrian speeds.. To do the same in say, a modern 3 series you'd need to be travelling very quickly indeed.
Having said that though, probably the only reason I didn't have some sort of almighty accident in those days was that there was far less to hit!
I started driving around the same time as the OP in mk2 Ecsort 1300 sport. Even with its distinct lack of power you could push the tail out at every round about and four wheel drift on every 'fast' corner. A great way to learn about rwd handling and all at relatively pedestrian speeds.. To do the same in say, a modern 3 series you'd need to be travelling very quickly indeed.
Having said that though, probably the only reason I didn't have some sort of almighty accident in those days was that there was far less to hit!
Its all good - its an internet forum, not the real world. I've been around long enough (and probably dished out enough grief to others in the past) not to take offence.
Back on topic though, Does anyone else struggle to get enthusiastic about the cars which were everyday stuff when you started driving, but which are now considered appreciating classics?
I have no particularly fond memories of Capris and mk2 Escorts, but they seem to have a very keen following these days, and the prices are getting shocking.
Must be my age...
Back on topic though, Does anyone else struggle to get enthusiastic about the cars which were everyday stuff when you started driving, but which are now considered appreciating classics?
I have no particularly fond memories of Capris and mk2 Escorts, but they seem to have a very keen following these days, and the prices are getting shocking.
Must be my age...
R_U_LOCAL said:
Its all good - its an internet forum, not the real world. I've been around long enough (and probably dished out enough grief to others in the past) not to take offence.
Back on topic though, Does anyone else struggle to get enthusiastic about the cars which were everyday stuff when you started driving, but which are now considered appreciating classics?
I have no particularly fond memories of Capris and mk2 Escorts, but they seem to have a very keen following these days, and the prices are getting shocking.
Must be my age...
Yep. Your own father probably didn't believe what Model Ts were fetching 50 years later...Back on topic though, Does anyone else struggle to get enthusiastic about the cars which were everyday stuff when you started driving, but which are now considered appreciating classics?
I have no particularly fond memories of Capris and mk2 Escorts, but they seem to have a very keen following these days, and the prices are getting shocking.
Must be my age...
I agree that modern cars aren't built for driving enthusiasts, more for people who want to text and then be able to avoid a crash ( hopefully).
At Goodwood Member's meeting there were a lot of newer cars - capris, rover Sdis etc- that are not yet allowed at the Revival. Only a matter of time
R_U_LOCAL said:
Its all good - its an internet forum, not the real world. I've been around long enough (and probably dished out enough grief to others in the past) not to take offence.
Back on topic though, Does anyone else struggle to get enthusiastic about the cars which were everyday stuff when you started driving, but which are now considered appreciating classics?
I have no particularly fond memories of Capris and mk2 Escorts, but they seem to have a very keen following these days, and the prices are getting shocking.
Must be my age...
Looking at it from the exact opposite way round- I have been given a fairly solid diet of new, solid, quiet, reliable, refined cars. I don't like them. I drive a 15-year-old shed of an E36 BMW, love spending my spare time fixing it, and generally appreciate the more mechanical feel.Back on topic though, Does anyone else struggle to get enthusiastic about the cars which were everyday stuff when you started driving, but which are now considered appreciating classics?
I have no particularly fond memories of Capris and mk2 Escorts, but they seem to have a very keen following these days, and the prices are getting shocking.
Must be my age...
I am also looking at getting hold of something even older, as I am clearly a glutton for punishment. It's more a novelty to have something that's ancient, interactive, slightly unreliable and interesting to play with.
Undoubtedly, if I'd been in your shoes many moons ago, I wouldn't be quite so enamoured. But c'est la vie.
Also- what the f
k is wrong with people? No need for the remarks made earlier in the thread.One mans classic is another mans shed.
Its the daily use which makes the biggest difference I think. I have a track prepared MX5 in my garage. Its by no means a classic in my view, but its 24 years old now and qualifies for classic insurance, so it probably is considered a classic by some people.
It's certainly got some of the attributes of a classic - no driver aids, mechanical bits you can fix & service yourself, and a level of feedback you don't really get with many modern cars.
I love driving it when I'm in the mood, but would I tolerate it every day for my daily commute? No thanks. I'm quite happy to embrace modern cars for the majority of my everyday motoring needs, but it's nice to have the mazda available for leisure use and trackdays.
My original point was that young drivers would still, to a certain degree, benefit from having to use an unreliable and unassisted car in the early part of their driving careers.
Maybe I do sound like one of Monty Python's four Yorkshiremen.
I used to get up for work at half-past-ten at night, half an hour before I went to bed, and then I licked the road clean wi' me tongue.
Its the daily use which makes the biggest difference I think. I have a track prepared MX5 in my garage. Its by no means a classic in my view, but its 24 years old now and qualifies for classic insurance, so it probably is considered a classic by some people.
It's certainly got some of the attributes of a classic - no driver aids, mechanical bits you can fix & service yourself, and a level of feedback you don't really get with many modern cars.
I love driving it when I'm in the mood, but would I tolerate it every day for my daily commute? No thanks. I'm quite happy to embrace modern cars for the majority of my everyday motoring needs, but it's nice to have the mazda available for leisure use and trackdays.
My original point was that young drivers would still, to a certain degree, benefit from having to use an unreliable and unassisted car in the early part of their driving careers.
Maybe I do sound like one of Monty Python's four Yorkshiremen.
I used to get up for work at half-past-ten at night, half an hour before I went to bed, and then I licked the road clean wi' me tongue.
Nice to see a debate going on and I am with the OP on this one.
I do consider myself a better driver having served an 'apprenticeship' with a variety of old bangers during the 70's.
Now, I am not advocating that everyone should begin their motoring in a car with marginal brakes, rumbling bearings and a holey floor but for me there was a useful learning curve to be had.
For a start it is easier to have empathy with the mechanical bits of a car when you've taken most of them apart (and learned to put them back together). Likewise understanding handling characteristics when your driving began on cross ply tyres!
To this day I give way to cars ascending a hill because they may find it difficult to get going again and I still 'tickle' the brakes well in advance of a junction just to make sure they are still there.
Another interesting point is the age of cars that we consider to be bangers these days. I started driving in 1969 when the likes of Herald, Viva, Anglia and so on, could be had for around 50 quid - They were less than 10 years old and very much 'end of life' - Rusted away if not mechanically knackered. These days my daily driver Honda is 12 years old and my wife's 'A' Class 14. I consider them barely run-in.
But nothing changes.... My late Dad used to say that I would never learn to drive properly in a modern car like a Herald or Anglia. To him, bangers were pre-war cars without synchro gears and blessed with cable or rod brakes maintained in an era before MOT!
I do consider myself a better driver having served an 'apprenticeship' with a variety of old bangers during the 70's.
Now, I am not advocating that everyone should begin their motoring in a car with marginal brakes, rumbling bearings and a holey floor but for me there was a useful learning curve to be had.
For a start it is easier to have empathy with the mechanical bits of a car when you've taken most of them apart (and learned to put them back together). Likewise understanding handling characteristics when your driving began on cross ply tyres!
To this day I give way to cars ascending a hill because they may find it difficult to get going again and I still 'tickle' the brakes well in advance of a junction just to make sure they are still there.
Another interesting point is the age of cars that we consider to be bangers these days. I started driving in 1969 when the likes of Herald, Viva, Anglia and so on, could be had for around 50 quid - They were less than 10 years old and very much 'end of life' - Rusted away if not mechanically knackered. These days my daily driver Honda is 12 years old and my wife's 'A' Class 14. I consider them barely run-in.
But nothing changes.... My late Dad used to say that I would never learn to drive properly in a modern car like a Herald or Anglia. To him, bangers were pre-war cars without synchro gears and blessed with cable or rod brakes maintained in an era before MOT!
There's also a factor that understanding how cars work makes you a better driver, and let's face it, if you don't understand how cars work (and thereby how to fix them), driving an old, cheap car when you have very little money may not go at all well for you.
But yes, the more tactile and un-nannied nature of driving older cars unquestionably makes you a better driver even in a modern car, especially when the st hits the fan and the electronics can't or won't save you from yourself.
But yes, the more tactile and un-nannied nature of driving older cars unquestionably makes you a better driver even in a modern car, especially when the s
t hits the fan and the electronics can't or won't save you from yourself.R_U_LOCAL said:
Back on topic though, Does anyone else struggle to get enthusiastic about the cars which were everyday stuff when you started driving, but which are now considered appreciating classics?
Must be my age...
"Fond memories" huh. Well, I started with an E-type when I was 14, but it was a Morris E actually, and one that had failed its MOT in 1960 so was donated by my uncle. I had nothing to compare it with and it was free and it had four wheels. Good cars include the Mini and Cooper S, and lousy cars of the 70's include two Marinas and a Triumph 1300. First company car was a Moggie, and it was fine - except that the layshaft went and the company refused to repair it since it was due for replacement under the company scheme. Drove it for three months without reverse or first.Must be my age...
Cars were substantially different, and anyone who has driven a 1275cc Marina "coupé" with drum brakes and no servo will give testament that you looked not one car in front but five to anticipate braking. Solid rear axles, wipers that sometimes were useless (Ford 100E)suicide doors (Vauxhall) radios with 3 watt output, heaters that didn't - or even no heater since it was "extra", no power steering, crossply tyres, plastic seats - let's leave it there.
I'm not sure that "delicacy" is the word I'd use though. We still thrashed them but were aware that before airbags and the rest of the gubbins existed we were playing with out lives, even at 40mph so we were more aware.
Looking at the replies above I get the impression that some are too young to really get the gist of what you are saying, and I for one understand and do not find it in any way offensive - but the replies are offensive. I had the XKSS out yesterday and SWMBO still can't understand that my driving is so poor, in that the car darts all over the place. one day I'll put her Yaris on crossplies and see how she gets on. You have to experience it to understand, and that seems to be the nub of the hostile comments. They haven't.
Further to Lowdrag and OP commenting on getting excited about some of the more mundane classics....
I find that the reverse is true! I really wanted to contribute to the 100K garage thread but I struggled to think of a modern car that I would want to have in my garage. Don't get me wrong, modern cars are universally good IMHO. - But so are modern washing machines and 'fridges although my heart doesn't miss a beat when we buy one of those!
For me the cachet of 'my' era of classics is as strong as ever. How can one's loins not stir at the sight of a MK1 Triumph 2.5 P.I. or a 1600e? Even a Morris 1300GT or an Escort Sport? Avenger Tiger, Vauxhall Magnum?
If anything, the urge is stronger than ever. Back in the day I would not have considered an MG Magnette or a Sunbeam Rapier because even at my 50 quid price point these did not have enough street cred.... But now I'd adopt one in an instant.
I find that the reverse is true! I really wanted to contribute to the 100K garage thread but I struggled to think of a modern car that I would want to have in my garage. Don't get me wrong, modern cars are universally good IMHO. - But so are modern washing machines and 'fridges although my heart doesn't miss a beat when we buy one of those!
For me the cachet of 'my' era of classics is as strong as ever. How can one's loins not stir at the sight of a MK1 Triumph 2.5 P.I. or a 1600e? Even a Morris 1300GT or an Escort Sport? Avenger Tiger, Vauxhall Magnum?
If anything, the urge is stronger than ever. Back in the day I would not have considered an MG Magnette or a Sunbeam Rapier because even at my 50 quid price point these did not have enough street cred.... But now I'd adopt one in an instant.
Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff