British Leyland

[ruff'n'smov]

My Dolly was the best car Available for the price and beat all comers back in the very early 80's, so was my rover 420 in 1992 so much better IMO than the BMW 320 of the same era, it. Saddens me that I can't at least look at a truly British car as an option anymore.

And the Stag....well it was a Stag wasn't it.....I still well up when I think about it.

[esso]

Breadvan72 said:

During the Lord Stokes era, and before, short term shareholder advantage was all important, and so expenditure on retooling and so on took a back seat in favour of dividends. My dad recalls a party from Honda visiting a BL factory and asking how often it retooled. "We haven't retooled since the war" was the reply. "We retool every eight years, whether we need to or not" said the Honda men.

My dad watched a worker using an approved factory bodge on a Marina, made necessary by parts and holes not aligning, and pointed out that the bodge would fail under load. "I know", said the bloke "but we have been told to get them to the dealers, who will fix it under warranty".

My dad is quite colourful about the shenanigans re the Stag and the failure to obtain the Rover V8 for it.

One car that my dad praises, perhaps surprisingly, is the Princess, which he thinks was underrated.

When BMW bought Rover/ Longbridge there was major investment with New machinery involving upgrade of the K series engine and the new (K)V6 engine line.All was going well until BMW sold it, that's when it all went tits- up.

[uk66fastback]

ruff'n'smov said:

And the Stag....well it was a Stag wasn't it.....I still well up when I think about it.

So do I - it empied my pockets quicker than an illegal immigrant on Oxford Street

[ruff'n'smov]

uk66fastback said:

ruff'n'smov said:

And the Stag....well it was a Stag wasn't it.....I still well up when I think about it.

So do I - it empied my pockets quicker than an illegal immigrant on Oxford Street

[XJ Flyer]

I had a 2.5 PI for around 4 years.

Then a 1983 XJ12 which I ran from 1988 to 2000 and then replaced it with a 1984 XJ12 which I'm still running.The mistake that BL made with it was in not ditching the 5.3 engine for the longer stroke 6.0 Litre version from the start and not offering a manual box option.Once that is sorted it was and still is one of the best saloon cars ever made.

As for BL it was the cheap and nasty st boxes made by Austin Morris division after the end of the 6 cylinder rwd line and being starved of investment cash that brought the group down.

[Markgenesis]

I'd say i'm a fan, though i've never owned a BL car apart from a few 70's Mini's. Grown to love the ADO16 (like a big Mini anyway), a guy on Classic Car Weekly has just bought a two door MG1300 and it's lovely. May look for one of those (or a Princess version) someday.

Fond memories of my sisters Wedge in the mid 80's, it was a Morris 1800 (P reg i think ?), the one with the raised V in the bonnet and the chrome trim on the grill (now mega rare), it had just been resprayed Vermilion, suspension re-gassed and was looking superb when her then boyfriend ran it off the road (drunk), over a tree stump and smashed the underside.

She also had a Marina 1800 TC in a funky bright purple, there was a 73 Coupe 1800 TC on E-bay recently (needing work but nothing major) i'd have bought in a hartbeat if i could have.

[V8 Fettler]

The companies that were forced together to form BL were world leaders in design, eg Jaguar XJ6, Rover P6, Triumph Stag (bar the well documented engine problems!). BL lost its way for many reasons. although BL design could still be world leading.

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

V8 Fettler said:

The companies that were forced together to form BL were world leaders in design, eg Jaguar XJ6, Rover P6, Triumph Stag (bar the well documented engine problems!). BL lost its way for many reasons. although BL design could still be world leading.

Didn't they outsource a lot of the design? Michelotti for Stag etc

[anonymous-user]

All the major manufacturers used the Italian design studios, and Michelotti styled loads of Triumphs. Pininfarina was involved with the MGB, and so on. The industrial design and engineering were usually done in-house.

[mikey77]

A lot of interesting stuff here, especially the biography - thanks for that.
I don't really think a Morris 1000 counts as 'BL', but I'm sure others would agree to differ.
What practically brought tears to my eyes - as a P4, P6 and SD1 owner - was the way BL morphed into 'Austin Rover' and then just 'Rover'. I reckon that was almost criminal deception. I really couldn't feel sorry for the clowns who bought the cars after that.
Interestingly, I think the pseudo-retro Rover 75 represented exactly the wrong way to go and should never have seen the light of day.
Just my opinion...

[sprocketman01]

Spent years welding Mini's back together.... Due in part to my Father's interest in all things BL....

I can remember a time when our little garage in Clayton (Bradford) had 7 Allegro's..... including 2 with Quartic Wheels.....

[johnxjsc1985]

My Dad worked for Standard Triumph in Speke. I cant tell you how many strikes they had in the mid-late 70's but its surprising they built any Cars at all.the last Car was the TR7 I think its code name was Bullitt.

[paranha]

My First New car was an 850 Austin mini--which was a treasure after a Ford Zodiac which used a pint of Oil per week.On the day the the Austin Mini Cooper "S" was announced, I was in the local Austin dealers, ordering one of the 1071,s the same day.
Two months later, I get a call to say My "S" would be in at the weekend.On arriving on Saturday I saw that MY P & J was in the front showroom window, on a turntable---------------------being admired by a number of pavement PH,s watching her get dizzy.
Pleased to have a "Hot"BMC baby, I asked the manager when I could collect my S. Sorry--he said--Its the only one in Hertfordshire and we must display for 14 days----
As I passed by each day, there she was, getting evermore dizzy--with the spotlights on , and me itching to drive her---"Was worth the wait"---GREAT car and what an example of our Brilliant engineers and designers.

[T0nup]

Have nothing against BL cars... Am kinda fond of a few marques. The wife had a white Allegro for many years, and despite having repair/restore bodywork every now and then, and keeping it mechanically sound, we both loved that little car. She named it little white Bull, and mourned for almost a week when we finally had to let it go to the scrappy in the sky.

Used to drive a Ambassador for work. Bit wallowy in the bends, but was lively enough. Very comfy car for longer journeys.

And a good friend owned a Austin 1800 I rather coverted. Big heavy old bus, and a tad thirsty, but reliable as the day was long.

[Yertis]

I couldn't bring myself to apply the little "Leyland" badges to the wings of my TR6 after restoration, I put on some enamel Union flags instead. Just too many bad associations connected with the late '70s, the Austin-Morris thing especially as has already been said. A real shame because the Jaguar/Rover/Triumph brand built some truly exceptional cars.

[gdaybruce]

I wasn’t sure of the exact dates that spanned the British Leyland era but I see from Wikipedia that it stretched from 1968 to 1986. On that basis I can claim the honour of having run numerous BL cars:

1969 MGB GT
1970 MG Midget
1970 Austin 1100
1971 Mini Cooper S with a 1293 Downton engine
1974 Triumph Dolomite Sprint
1977 Austin Allegro 1500 (5 speed!)
1977 Rover SD1 3500 manual
1982 Rover 3500 Vitesse

I should add a 1987 Austin Montego Estate 2.0i which was surely a BL era car and had the honour of being my first company funded wheels.

I’ve listed these in the order they were made, not the order in which I owned them since none were bought new. Of them all, the Allegro was and is the most criticised, mostly with good reason. It was just never the car it should have been, following on as it did from the excellent 1100/1300 series. My father had owned a 1969 MG 1300 and that was a terrific driver’s car – essentially a stretched Cooper S. I learned most of what I know about fwd handling in that car, throwing it about a disused airfield and learning all about lift off oversteer and the many uses of a handbrake! By contrast the Allegro was just plain dull.

The Cooper S was bought as a prepared rally car so was not terribly representative of showroom models. It had a Salisbury LSD and Dunlop tarmac spec rally tyres and oh boy, did it go around corners!

The Dolly was a lot of fun but the water pump wasn’t up to the job so overheating was a constant threat.

I much preferred the Midget to the B – more responsive and eager. Didn’t help that the B was stolen and crashed, after which it never felt the same.

The 1100 was a great little car: spacious, good to drive and reliable. It was my wife’s first “proper” car and when we bought it, it struggled to reach 70 but after an Italian tune up it happily cruised everywhere at 80 to 85!

I had two Rover 3500 SD1s, the second a Vitesse. However, I think I preferred the first, standard car. The engine was a masterpiece with a party trick of pulling like a steam engine from just 500rpm in 5th. If anyone knows Staxton hill near Scarborough, that was a hill that when I was young the question was whether or not the family car would be able to get up without the need for 1st gear. Once, in the Rover, I went up in 5th, just see if it could – no problem!

Finally, the Montego 2.0 Estate was a very good family car. We had two small children at the time and the Montego was roomy, comfortable, handled and steered well and was decently economical. It was also surprisingly quick. I was once taken on by a chap in an XR3i going up a long hill with two uphill lanes. I think he was severely displeased that a Montego Estate pulled away!

In summary, there was a lot of great design in BL cars and some really terrible lack of development. In my view it was this, together with inconsistent build quality that let them down. The Dolomite was typical: wonderful engine but let down by inadequate cooling. It left you thinking “how hard would it have been to spend just a bit more to get it right?!”

As a footnote, the passage of time leads to nostalgia and blurs judgement. At our camp site at the Classic Le Mans this year there was an Allegro 1300 in very fine condition and I found myself yearning to own it... As his bumper sticker proclaimed: "It's so crap, it's cool!"

[kev b]

I worked in the car trade in the 1980s, the quality of many makes was suspect but BL cars were mostly over complicated designs badly built down to a price, Austin/Morris especially so.

If you needed a clutch in your Cortina or Viva it would take two hours but in a FWD BL car it took ages and needed special tools, ditto most servicing tasks, this was when cars needed looking at every 3 to 6 thousand miles, consequently BL cars were more expensive to run which hurt their reputation as a secondhand buy.

Some were better, probably due to being simpler, Marinas, 6 cylinder Triumphs, Princesses, but apart from the Princess were old designs and the new models missed the mark time and again.

Look at the TR7, the XJS, Ital, Metro, all could have been roaring successes but were hobbled with old mechanicals or dubious styling and were late to the market.

The XJS replaced the fantastic E-type but they chose that challenging body style.

The Metro, good design, late to the market with a Fifties power train, should have had the brilliant K series but they managed to cock that engine up by penny pinching ensuring a reputation for head gasket failure that blighted the reputations of Rover 25s, MGFs and Freelanders for ever.

The TR7, what were they thinking? Who signed off the design? A simple car that should have been a success but just in case hobbling it with dreadful looks did not doom it they built it badly and gave it a rubbish 4 speed gearbox.

Rover SD1,a desirable fantastic looking car, super V8 engine, simple to work on but badly built, I recall a customer returning like a boomerang because we could not balance the front wheels properly, years later I found out a batch of badly machined front suspensions had made it through QC.

The Marina was basically a re-bodied Morris Minor so all the kinks should have been straightened out years before but no, it was still rubbish.

The Sherpa van, all they had to do was copy the Transit, but despite starting a decade later they still managed to make it underpowered, unreliable and unpleasant, the Transit of the time was nothing special but they could not even equal the Ford let alone improve on it.

Other cars of the era had problems, Cortina camshafts for example but BL products always had loads of flaws and never seemed to improve across the production run.

The failure of BL was a national disgrace, then when finally a really good car, the Rover 75 was produced we let Rover fail again, everyone involved should hang their heads in shame.

[Mr_B]

Interesting thread. Any insider views on BMW's tenure ?

[XJ Flyer]

kev b said:

I worked in the car trade in the 1980s, the quality of many makes was suspect but BL cars were mostly over complicated designs badly built down to a price, Austin/Morris especially so.

If you needed a clutch in your Cortina or Viva it would take two hours but in a FWD BL car it took ages and needed special tools, ditto most servicing tasks, this was when cars needed looking at every 3 to 6 thousand miles, consequently BL cars were more expensive to run which hurt their reputation as a secondhand buy.

Some were better, probably due to being simpler, Marinas, 6 cylinder Triumphs, Princesses, but apart from the Princess were old designs and the new models missed the mark time and again.

Look at the TR7, the XJS, Ital, Metro, all could have been roaring successes but were hobbled with old mechanicals or dubious styling and were late to the market.

The XJS replaced the fantastic E-type but they chose that challenging body style.

The Metro, good design, late to the market with a Fifties power train, should have had the brilliant K series but they managed to cock that engine up by penny pinching ensuring a reputation for head gasket failure that blighted the reputations of Rover 25s, MGFs and Freelanders for ever.

The TR7, what were they thinking? Who signed off the design? A simple car that should have been a success but just in case hobbling it with dreadful looks did not doom it they built it badly and gave it a rubbish 4 speed gearbox.

Rover SD1,a desirable fantastic looking car, super V8 engine, simple to work on but badly built, I recall a customer returning like a boomerang because we could not balance the front wheels properly, years later I found out a batch of badly machined front suspensions had made it through QC.

The Marina was basically a re-bodied Morris Minor so all the kinks should have been straightened out years before but no, it was still rubbish.

The Sherpa van, all they had to do was copy the Transit, but despite starting a decade later they still managed to make it underpowered, unreliable and unpleasant, the Transit of the time was nothing special but they could not even equal the Ford let alone improve on it.

Other cars of the era had problems, Cortina camshafts for example but BL products always had loads of flaws and never seemed to improve across the production run.

The failure of BL was a national disgrace, then when finally a really good car, the Rover 75 was produced we let Rover fail again, everyone involved should hang their heads in shame.

To be fair the XJS managed a 20 year production run and in general,like the XJ saloon alternatives,was mainly hampered by being lumbered with 3/4 speed auto and too long before the move to the 6.0 litre V12.Like the XJ saloons,especially in manual form either standard or modified,it was virtually competitor proof v the contemporary Merc coupe or BMW 6 series competition at the price.

As for the Rover SD1 being 'desirable' the figures suggest otherwise and from memory my own and many others view in the day was that it was an ugly and retrograde live axle replacement for the older P6 and Triumph 2.5 saloons.With the combined sales of the P6 and Triumph over their production lives being double those of the SD1.The fact is there was loads of production life and sales left in the old Triumph 2.5 'if' it had been fitted with the new Rover ( actually Triumph developed ) 6 cylinder engine and the Rover V8.

As for the Rover 75 etc the move to fwd after the SD1 wrecked Rover's chances in the sports/executive saloon sector and BMW knew it which is why BMW never allowed Rover to get back to the old V8 rwd formula under BMW ownership.

As for Triumph as usual it took enthusiastic owners to build the cars that BL should have been building when it had the chance.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsfc8IRw5Y4

[esso]

Mr_B said:

Interesting thread. Any insider views on BMW's tenure ?

BMW invested heavily into East Works at Longbridge, upgrading the 'K' series engine line and financing new machines for the KV6 engine but it all turned sour when it was sold off.