Which Quattro? UR, WR or RR?
Discussion
So then.
I am back on the question as to which Quattro to get. I think after all the searching and looking, the 20v RR comes out on top.
Main reason. After thinking about getting one for some time I couldn't bear the thought of actually parting with 14-25k on one, only to find out that its petty damn slow compares to todays cars. So, the 20v RR would seem like the best option. Plus of course, its the latest to will have the latest technology.
Also, would i be correct in saying that the 20v RR has the widest arches of the lot? The stance seems to be better. However it could just be the rims.
Additionally of course on the mechanicals, reliability comes into it.
Budget is also of course a concern, as the RR's are more. Still, if your gonna get one, get the best you can hey. Am thinking of pushing the button in the New Year.
Thoughts??
I am back on the question as to which Quattro to get. I think after all the searching and looking, the 20v RR comes out on top.
Main reason. After thinking about getting one for some time I couldn't bear the thought of actually parting with 14-25k on one, only to find out that its petty damn slow compares to todays cars. So, the 20v RR would seem like the best option. Plus of course, its the latest to will have the latest technology.
Also, would i be correct in saying that the 20v RR has the widest arches of the lot? The stance seems to be better. However it could just be the rims.
Additionally of course on the mechanicals, reliability comes into it.
Budget is also of course a concern, as the RR's are more. Still, if your gonna get one, get the best you can hey. Am thinking of pushing the button in the New Year.
Thoughts??
There's no question that the RR is objectively the best of the bunch, but my brother's early '81 Quad-Headlamp LHD WR on Fuchs Magnesium alloys is more fun to drive than my 43,000 mile RR!
The earliest cars have cheap brittle interiors, lots of turbo lag, a big gap between 2nd & 3rd & a higher stance but at 1260 kg (his has manual windows) they're much lighter & they have the bonus of being able to lock the rear diff independently of the central diff. The very early cars also have a rear anti-roll bar, which was removed as it could under some circumstances set-up a destablising diagonal pitching movement (something I've experienced running over a transverse dip in a downhill stretch of road at 135 mph).
I'd get an RR, but only if I couldn't source an immaculate really early Quad-Headlamp LHD car - the early car is more of a rough diamond, but more fun because of it - and is now the rarest of all.
The arch width never changed - the suspension was lowered by 20mm & the wheels moved from 15"x6" (optional Fuchs Magnesium wheels were 15"x7") to 15"x8" Ronal alloys - which were the widest that would fit within the guards.
The earliest cars have cheap brittle interiors, lots of turbo lag, a big gap between 2nd & 3rd & a higher stance but at 1260 kg (his has manual windows) they're much lighter & they have the bonus of being able to lock the rear diff independently of the central diff. The very early cars also have a rear anti-roll bar, which was removed as it could under some circumstances set-up a destablising diagonal pitching movement (something I've experienced running over a transverse dip in a downhill stretch of road at 135 mph).
I'd get an RR, but only if I couldn't source an immaculate really early Quad-Headlamp LHD car - the early car is more of a rough diamond, but more fun because of it - and is now the rarest of all.
The arch width never changed - the suspension was lowered by 20mm & the wheels moved from 15"x6" (optional Fuchs Magnesium wheels were 15"x7") to 15"x8" Ronal alloys - which were the widest that would fit within the guards.
Minor note - it isn't a choice of UR, WR or RR as per the title. UR ("Ur", German for 'original') is a term applied to the entire range to differentiate it from the liberal use of 'quattro' in other Audi models. The three UK model designations I've heard were WR for the first generation with switchable diff locks and 2144cc engine, the MB with Torsen diff and 2226 engine, and the RR with the 2226 20v engine. I don't know if there's a separate designation for the very early manual cable diff-lock cars, I've always thought of them still as WR cars. There were other model designations outside the UK of course.
I have noticed a sub-trend in Quattroland to try to claim the ur-prefix for only those early quad-headlamp, cable diff-lock WRs. But the idea seems thankfully to have not gained much traction.
If the OP is really serious he should check out the isham research 'buying a Quattro' pages. But even those are now getting a bit out of date and different issues are presenting themselves.
I've owned all three major types over the last quite a few years and have settled on an MB as offering the best all-round experience but to be honest it's swings and roundabouts, they all have their advantages and foibles.
Also owning a Quattro is a bit of a lifestyle decision, they have the capacity to absorb a huge amount of time, committment and money.
If the OP is really serious he should check out the isham research 'buying a Quattro' pages. But even those are now getting a bit out of date and different issues are presenting themselves.
I've owned all three major types over the last quite a few years and have settled on an MB as offering the best all-round experience but to be honest it's swings and roundabouts, they all have their advantages and foibles.
Also owning a Quattro is a bit of a lifestyle decision, they have the capacity to absorb a huge amount of time, committment and money.
I meant to mention PPs quattro advice site, but I wasn't sure whether it was still there, then completely forgot to check.
To be honest, rust is the thing that would put me off the least, I'd be more concerned about unobtainable drivetrain stuff. But then I'm six years in to repairing a very rusty Vauxhall so I'm still at a stage where I think anything like that can be repaired. Weird that RRs seem prone to it, given the oft-repeated rumour (and I don't know whether anything was ever confirmed) that at least some part of the RR shells were galvanised.
I went out to see quite a lot of cars in the late eighties early nineties, and even at that point they'd got down to a price where people who could only just afford one were buying them, thrashing them, then getting rid. I went to one where the only way you could get into first was by turning the engine off and starting it in gear with the pedal down, the owner offered to knock off £200 for a new clutch, as he ran a clutch centre but wouldn't do the job I smelt a rat.
To be honest, rust is the thing that would put me off the least, I'd be more concerned about unobtainable drivetrain stuff. But then I'm six years in to repairing a very rusty Vauxhall so I'm still at a stage where I think anything like that can be repaired. Weird that RRs seem prone to it, given the oft-repeated rumour (and I don't know whether anything was ever confirmed) that at least some part of the RR shells were galvanised.
I went out to see quite a lot of cars in the late eighties early nineties, and even at that point they'd got down to a price where people who could only just afford one were buying them, thrashing them, then getting rid. I went to one where the only way you could get into first was by turning the engine off and starting it in gear with the pedal down, the owner offered to knock off £200 for a new clutch, as he ran a clutch centre but wouldn't do the job I smelt a rat.
Edited by droopsnoot on Thursday 30th October 19:07
Had an '82 WR, flat grille and single headlamps, right hand drive in Zermatt Silver, with brown & green stripey teddy bear fabric interior. It was absolutely standard apart from an upgrade to 7" wide rims!
The car was something very special indeed, and lacked the louty look, shiny leather seats and nasty digital dash of the later cars. Yes it was laggy, but it was very fast indeed across country, especially in poor weather, with soft suspension, huge travel and skinny tyres, and the fabulous steering easily made up for the rather odd gear spacing referred to above.
Just after we got it in 1998 a friend of mine bought a brand new Impreza, and we did a little swop for a test drive. It's fair to say that he was blown away by the Quattro's sheer presence and capability on the road, and I thought the Impreza was good fun and fast but a bit utensil like inside.
Oh and that sound, there's nothing like a Quattro on full howl. We replaced the car with an Integrale, which was no doubt more nimble and had clever diffs, but lacked the sense of occasion of the five cylinder wonder.
The car was something very special indeed, and lacked the louty look, shiny leather seats and nasty digital dash of the later cars. Yes it was laggy, but it was very fast indeed across country, especially in poor weather, with soft suspension, huge travel and skinny tyres, and the fabulous steering easily made up for the rather odd gear spacing referred to above.
Just after we got it in 1998 a friend of mine bought a brand new Impreza, and we did a little swop for a test drive. It's fair to say that he was blown away by the Quattro's sheer presence and capability on the road, and I thought the Impreza was good fun and fast but a bit utensil like inside.
Oh and that sound, there's nothing like a Quattro on full howl. We replaced the car with an Integrale, which was no doubt more nimble and had clever diffs, but lacked the sense of occasion of the five cylinder wonder.
droopsnoot said:
To be honest, rust is the thing that would put me off the least, I'd be more concerned about unobtainable drivetrain stuff. But then I'm six years in to repairing a very rusty Vauxhall so I'm still at a stage where I think anything like that can be repaired. Weird that RRs seem prone to it, given the oft-repeated rumour (and I don't know whether anything was ever confirmed) that at least some part of the RR shells were galvanised.
Obviously, if you're doing the work yourself and are handy at fabrication then yes, you could repair the shell of course. But they rot from the bottom up, inside out. Lots of places for the tin work to take a hold out of sight.The galvanising seems to me to be a pot luck thing. My last WR was rusty in all the usual places – rear sills, A-pillar, C-pillar, but had great chips of bare metal showing on the completely rust free bonnet. My RR had a rusty sun roof, floors, rusty just about everything actually. Went very nicely though.
What about an MB, but buy an ABY engine, fit forged pistons and upgraded rods, have the head gas flowed, fit a GTX3076r along with Wagner manifolds and the biggest intercooler you can fit. Keep the original engine so it can all be returned to standard and then never worry about anyone being faster than you ever again!
Personally I would just go with buying whatever was available and in the best condition, rather than limit my options by only considering certain models. That said, I prefer the earlier cars and wouldn't be overly concerned about comparisons with the performance of modern cars. A new 320d is probably faster than my E30 M3, but the actual driving experience simply doesn't compare.
Hi all,
Thanks for the comments and suggestions. Always good to hear advice from others, especially those who have owned them. Agree with the advice to focus on the best possible. Car I can and buy on condition and history as a pose to being stuck on models.
This leads me onto a second question, WHO WOULD YOU SEND A CAR TO TO BE CHECKED?
Just like for my Integrale, there are a handful of experts in the UK. Any ideas on the experts I should stick with for pre buy check?
Thanks for the comments and suggestions. Always good to hear advice from others, especially those who have owned them. Agree with the advice to focus on the best possible. Car I can and buy on condition and history as a pose to being stuck on models.
This leads me onto a second question, WHO WOULD YOU SEND A CAR TO TO BE CHECKED?
Just like for my Integrale, there are a handful of experts in the UK. Any ideas on the experts I should stick with for pre buy check?
Randompunter74 said:
Hi all,
Thanks for the comments and suggestions. Always good to hear advice from others, especially those who have owned them. Agree with the advice to focus on the best possible. Car I can and buy on condition and history as a pose to being stuck on models.
This leads me onto a second question, WHO WOULD YOU SEND A CAR TO TO BE CHECKED?
Just like for my Integrale, there are a handful of experts in the UK. Any ideas on the experts I should stick with for pre buy check?
What swayed us with our quattro was knowing exactly where the car had been for years,with it's previous three owners all known to me, and that was worth more than any point-of-sale inspection. Thanks for the comments and suggestions. Always good to hear advice from others, especially those who have owned them. Agree with the advice to focus on the best possible. Car I can and buy on condition and history as a pose to being stuck on models.
This leads me onto a second question, WHO WOULD YOU SEND A CAR TO TO BE CHECKED?
Just like for my Integrale, there are a handful of experts in the UK. Any ideas on the experts I should stick with for pre buy check?
If you were to bring one to me to inspect (Sandhurst), you should expect me to seriously upset the previous owner/dealer if there is anything suspicious lurking underneath that he's trying to pass off!!!!
In answer to your question, dont know where you are located, but someone who went out of his way to help me out with our car once was Kim Collins, owner of Quattro Sport in Haywards Heath, off the A23 in Sussex
Edited by Flatinfourth on Saturday 1st November 10:52
Flatinfourth said:
Randompunter74 said:
Hi all,
Thanks for the comments and suggestions. Always good to hear advice from others, especially those who have owned them. Agree with the advice to focus on the best possible. Car I can and buy on condition and history as a pose to being stuck on models.
This leads me onto a second question, WHO WOULD YOU SEND A CAR TO TO BE CHECKED?
Just like for my Integrale, there are a handful of experts in the UK. Any ideas on the experts I should stick with for pre buy check?
What swayed us with our quattro was knowing exactly where the car had been for years,with it's previous three owners all known to me, and that was worth more than any point-of-sale inspection. Thanks for the comments and suggestions. Always good to hear advice from others, especially those who have owned them. Agree with the advice to focus on the best possible. Car I can and buy on condition and history as a pose to being stuck on models.
This leads me onto a second question, WHO WOULD YOU SEND A CAR TO TO BE CHECKED?
Just like for my Integrale, there are a handful of experts in the UK. Any ideas on the experts I should stick with for pre buy check?
If you were to bring one to me to inspect (Sandhurst), you should expect me to seriously upset the previous owner/dealer if there is anything suspiscious lurking underneath that he's trying to pass off!!!!
What you want is an inspection done by someone who's prepared to tell it how it is. They'd be doing no favours, were they to keep any discovered issues to themselves. I would also try and contact any previous owners, to see why they sold and what work / maintenance they did during their ownership?
Are there many UK cars for sale? UK M3's are in single figures and I don't imagine there are many more Quattro being sold?
It's certainly not a car you should buy on a whim. To put up with their various shortcomings demands a lot of love. They're not that fast (unless heavily modified) and they feel old but not in that slightly timeless indestructible way an old trad Jag/Triumph classic feels old.
The main man for pre-purchase inspections, Phil Payne, who would travel the breadth of the country to inspect a car, is no longer with us. I'm fairly sure Roger Galvin of QuattroWorkshop doesn't inspect cars on a roving basis but I imagine probably would inspect a car taken to his place (just off the M6 in Leicestershire). Similarly Keith at Dialynx near Swindon, but with either of those you'd have to phone to check. There's also White Cottage Quattros who I've never dealt with so can't say.
The main man for pre-purchase inspections, Phil Payne, who would travel the breadth of the country to inspect a car, is no longer with us. I'm fairly sure Roger Galvin of QuattroWorkshop doesn't inspect cars on a roving basis but I imagine probably would inspect a car taken to his place (just off the M6 in Leicestershire). Similarly Keith at Dialynx near Swindon, but with either of those you'd have to phone to check. There's also White Cottage Quattros who I've never dealt with so can't say.
Yertis said:
It's certainly not a car you should buy on a whim. To put up with their various shortcomings demands a lot of love. They're not that fast (unless heavily modified) and they feel old but not in that slightly timeless indestructible way an old trad Jag/Triumph classic feels old.
I'm afraid I beg to differ, despite the various quattro bits tacked on to the coupe sheel quite poorly in places, these cars are fundamentally better thought out and built than anything Jaguar or Triumph ever built up to and including the same period (speaking as someone who has an E Type prototype in my workshop), and an unmodified ten valve would cheerfully stay ahead of my own XJS V12 Le mans in the dry. Its worth remembering also that when the Impreza, Integrale and Pulsar were spitting gearbox parts all over the place for years, Quattro boxes were so unrequired so as to change hands for £150.00. It's only abuse and neglect that damages a Quattro, the Jags and Triumphs fall apart quite nicely without the owner's assistance!
I'm afraid I beg to differ, despite the various quattro bits tacked on to the coupe sheel quite poorly in places, these cars are fundamentally better thought out and built than anything Jaguar or Triumph ever built up to and including the same period (speaking as someone who has an E Type prototype in my workshop), and an unmodified ten valve would cheerfully stay ahead of my own XJS V12 Le mans in the dry. Its worth remembering also that when the Impreza, Integrale and Pulsar were spitting gearbox parts all over the place for years, Quattro boxes were so unrequired so as to change hands for £150.00. It's only abuse and neglect that damages a Quattro, the Jags and Triumphs fall apart quite nicely without the owner's assistance!
I own an RR, which I've had for just under 10 years and is currently undergoing a full and eye-wateringly expensive restoration.
Pay very close attention to rust. Exposing the full extent of the rust on mine has been a very sobering experience as the sheer rate of deterioration has been extraordinary, so inspect any car very carefully because even where it looks like the underseal has done a perfectly good job there can be some horror stories lurking beneath. If a car has been repaired, 'partly restored' or resprayed there could be problems rushing to the surface if the metalwork wasn't properly prepared last time. This has certainly been the case on mine. They really can rot like something from the '70s.
The parts issue is a funny one. I know engine bits are difficult to find for the WRs and MBs, but for the RR there hasn't really been a problem for me - partly because the engine is almost identical to the 3B used in early S2s. Radiator hoses can be acquired from Sweden and other parts like valve guides are on the shelf at Eurocarparts. The gearbox is pretty bombproof, as is the diff and other mechanical bits are generally easy to find. Audi Tradition actually has quite a lot of stock and I'd say the situation in general is much better than it was 5 years ago.
The tricky bits tend to be the fiddly parts that Audi Tradition doesn't produce regularly or at all. Sunroof seals, for instance, are made in small batches once a year and other random fiddly trim bits can be a nightmare. There's a little plastic foot in the sunroof mechanism, which I need, that is utterly impossible to find unless someone is breaking a Quattro or Coupe Quattro.
Get any potential purchase properly inspected, but you know this already. Some of the ones you see popping up on Ebay are utter basketcases, being sold by people who know nothing about them. It sounds really anorakish to say it, but paying more for a car that has been owned by a proper bobble-hatter enthusiast, with a total knowledge of what their car has done, is certainly preferable. Mine was a one-owner car - and fortunately that one owner is a good friend of mine.
The final thing to remember is that even the last RRs are now over 23 years old. Any G- or H-reg car will likely need a bit of TLC. I have the feeling that the rust side of things is probably on a similar level to an Integrale - and certainly worse than an E30 M3.
Pay very close attention to rust. Exposing the full extent of the rust on mine has been a very sobering experience as the sheer rate of deterioration has been extraordinary, so inspect any car very carefully because even where it looks like the underseal has done a perfectly good job there can be some horror stories lurking beneath. If a car has been repaired, 'partly restored' or resprayed there could be problems rushing to the surface if the metalwork wasn't properly prepared last time. This has certainly been the case on mine. They really can rot like something from the '70s.
The parts issue is a funny one. I know engine bits are difficult to find for the WRs and MBs, but for the RR there hasn't really been a problem for me - partly because the engine is almost identical to the 3B used in early S2s. Radiator hoses can be acquired from Sweden and other parts like valve guides are on the shelf at Eurocarparts. The gearbox is pretty bombproof, as is the diff and other mechanical bits are generally easy to find. Audi Tradition actually has quite a lot of stock and I'd say the situation in general is much better than it was 5 years ago.
The tricky bits tend to be the fiddly parts that Audi Tradition doesn't produce regularly or at all. Sunroof seals, for instance, are made in small batches once a year and other random fiddly trim bits can be a nightmare. There's a little plastic foot in the sunroof mechanism, which I need, that is utterly impossible to find unless someone is breaking a Quattro or Coupe Quattro.
Get any potential purchase properly inspected, but you know this already. Some of the ones you see popping up on Ebay are utter basketcases, being sold by people who know nothing about them. It sounds really anorakish to say it, but paying more for a car that has been owned by a proper bobble-hatter enthusiast, with a total knowledge of what their car has done, is certainly preferable. Mine was a one-owner car - and fortunately that one owner is a good friend of mine.
The final thing to remember is that even the last RRs are now over 23 years old. Any G- or H-reg car will likely need a bit of TLC. I have the feeling that the rust side of things is probably on a similar level to an Integrale - and certainly worse than an E30 M3.
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