Now out of reach
Discussion
It would seem that most of the classic cars that I lusted after have become unaffordable, simply out of my reach unless my lucky numbers come up.
It wasn't so long ago that the likes of Countach, Testarossa, Maserati Ghibli, etc were (with a bit of graft and saving) affordable. I mean, if you were on a tradesman's income you could graft for 2-3 years and you'd be able to afford one of these but that is no longer the case. Only a banker's bonus can get one now.
I have an edition of Car Magazine from the early 80s which featured Countach, AM Vantage, Porsche 911 Turbo and Berlinetta Boxer and they were in my sights...well I could afford at least one. The Countach was sitting at £50-£60K for some time and now it's gone ballistic.
Can this market be sustained? It's got to the stage where even if I did have £150K to purchase a classic car I think I would rather not. Instead I could buy 2-3 'modern' cars and enjoy them far more.
On Piston Heads the cheapest Countach is £225K for the undesirable Anniversary edition. Seriously, for that money I'd prefer a collection of modern (3-5 years old) cars.
It wasn't so long ago that the likes of Countach, Testarossa, Maserati Ghibli, etc were (with a bit of graft and saving) affordable. I mean, if you were on a tradesman's income you could graft for 2-3 years and you'd be able to afford one of these but that is no longer the case. Only a banker's bonus can get one now.
I have an edition of Car Magazine from the early 80s which featured Countach, AM Vantage, Porsche 911 Turbo and Berlinetta Boxer and they were in my sights...well I could afford at least one. The Countach was sitting at £50-£60K for some time and now it's gone ballistic.
Can this market be sustained? It's got to the stage where even if I did have £150K to purchase a classic car I think I would rather not. Instead I could buy 2-3 'modern' cars and enjoy them far more.
On Piston Heads the cheapest Countach is £225K for the undesirable Anniversary edition. Seriously, for that money I'd prefer a collection of modern (3-5 years old) cars.
This is quite true and has been discussed a number of times on PH, and for sure throughout the classic car world, but the question is, are the current values and upward pricing trends sustainable? I, for one, see many of the current prices as simply crazy. At some stage in the future the prices will drop. The intelligent money will pull out of classic cars and invest elsewhere. Here in the UK, the lower to mid' sector cars are relatively well priced compared to the majority of overseas markets. The very concerning part is of those unwise folk who have invested the majority, or in some cases 100%, of their pension funds into classic cars. I know of one gentleman who's invested £250k into two E-Type Jaguars. He's paid absolute top dollar for both cars, neither of which are concours, nor truly original; they're just run-of-the-mill E-Types. I fear there'll be some partially emptied pockets when/should the main market values level.
Classic Cars will continue to rise - whilst the interest are low and investors see classic's as an investment. As soon as one one of things goes "south" prices will crash (again)???
Agree though - decent classic's have soared. It is shocking to get a Classic Car monthly magazine from (only) 2010 to see that a brill E-Type could be had for £55-65k (£100K plus now).
Even TR5's have moved from £18-22k to £35-42k....and don't mention Escorts or Lotus Cortina's.........!
Agree though - decent classic's have soared. It is shocking to get a Classic Car monthly magazine from (only) 2010 to see that a brill E-Type could be had for £55-65k (£100K plus now).
Even TR5's have moved from £18-22k to £35-42k....and don't mention Escorts or Lotus Cortina's.........!
Instead of going for the "established" classics it is perhaps time to look at others on the rise instead jumpung up to fully modern?
There was a magazine special on the bargains for 2014. I think would put in my own personal list :
* Honda NSX ( early pop up light, MUST be manual ) - hmm probably already gone a bit mad.
* TVR Tuscan ( I am biased as I have one but this is a LOT of car for under £20k )
* TVR Cerb (V8)
* Porsche 996 Turbo / GT3
* Aston DB7
* Jensen Interceptor (as much as the Astons new but a bargain now, watch for rust and its got a nice chevy engine to avoid headaches and wallet rapage)
* Maserati 3200 / 4200
* BMW E46 M3 Can get a CSL look alike for 10k. ( Or the unloved E36 so the cheapest but really quite good )
* BMW Z3M / Z3M Breadvan
* Lancia Integrale - may already have rocketed actually
These have massive bork potential in some cases but I think the trick to getting value for money is get the next wave which isn't yet in the investment market like Healeys, DB5-6s, E Types, etc etc.
I think as people get older they turn to the cars of their youth hence the mad Ford Escort / Cortina prices and why Mk I / Mk II GTi Golfs are on the up with other 80s/90s hatchbackery.
I think the market is toppy too, and most cases these aren't actually that nice to drive but do look nice and get you into some cool events.
There was a magazine special on the bargains for 2014. I think would put in my own personal list :
* Honda NSX ( early pop up light, MUST be manual ) - hmm probably already gone a bit mad.
* TVR Tuscan ( I am biased as I have one but this is a LOT of car for under £20k )
* TVR Cerb (V8)
* Porsche 996 Turbo / GT3
* Aston DB7
* Jensen Interceptor (as much as the Astons new but a bargain now, watch for rust and its got a nice chevy engine to avoid headaches and wallet rapage)
* Maserati 3200 / 4200
* BMW E46 M3 Can get a CSL look alike for 10k. ( Or the unloved E36 so the cheapest but really quite good )
* BMW Z3M / Z3M Breadvan
* Lancia Integrale - may already have rocketed actually
These have massive bork potential in some cases but I think the trick to getting value for money is get the next wave which isn't yet in the investment market like Healeys, DB5-6s, E Types, etc etc.
I think as people get older they turn to the cars of their youth hence the mad Ford Escort / Cortina prices and why Mk I / Mk II GTi Golfs are on the up with other 80s/90s hatchbackery.
I think the market is toppy too, and most cases these aren't actually that nice to drive but do look nice and get you into some cool events.
Up until early 2014, a nice Porsche 996 Turbo could be had for £25k. This same car is now £30k. Crazy when you consider 997 Turbo's start at high £30k's.
A customer of ours owns a rhd Countach 5000S in yellow, he bought some years ago for £60k. He's recently turned down £200k for it, and he readily agrees its not £200k's worth of car.
A customer of ours owns a rhd Countach 5000S in yellow, he bought some years ago for £60k. He's recently turned down £200k for it, and he readily agrees its not £200k's worth of car.
It isn't just recently. Prices have been rising - apart from the boom/bust of 1992 - pretty inexorably for many a year. As said, most are now out of reach but the Sunbeam Tiger is one I still consider good value at the moment:-
http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/car-advert/sun...
But going further back to prove my point:-
To put the price in context, my new 5-bed house was £2,000 dearer than this car in 1979 and is now worth about 20% of the value of the car.
http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/car-advert/sun...
But going further back to prove my point:-
To put the price in context, my new 5-bed house was £2,000 dearer than this car in 1979 and is now worth about 20% of the value of the car.
Edited by lowdrag on Saturday 15th November 17:48
BluePurpleRed said:
* Honda NSX ( early pop up light, MUST be manual ) - hmm probably already gone a bit mad.
* TVR Tuscan ( I am biased as I have one but this is a LOT of car for under £20k )
* TVR Cerb (V8)
* Porsche 996 Turbo / GT3
* Aston DB7
* Jensen Interceptor (as much as the Astons new but a bargain now, watch for rust and its got a nice chevy engine to avoid headaches and wallet rapage)
* Maserati 3200 / 4200
* BMW E46 M3 Can get a CSL look alike for 10k. ( Or the unloved E36 so the cheapest but really quite good )
* BMW Z3M / Z3M Breadvan
* Lancia Integrale - may already have rocketed actually
Plenty of Bentleys and Ferraris to add to that list, all the following can be found on PH small adds for under £40k, many of them for a lot under:* TVR Tuscan ( I am biased as I have one but this is a LOT of car for under £20k )
* TVR Cerb (V8)
* Porsche 996 Turbo / GT3
* Aston DB7
* Jensen Interceptor (as much as the Astons new but a bargain now, watch for rust and its got a nice chevy engine to avoid headaches and wallet rapage)
* Maserati 3200 / 4200
* BMW E46 M3 Can get a CSL look alike for 10k. ( Or the unloved E36 so the cheapest but really quite good )
* BMW Z3M / Z3M Breadvan
* Lancia Integrale - may already have rocketed actually
Ferrari: Mondial, 456, 360, 308GT4, F355, 348, 412
Bentley: Continental, Flying Spur, Arnage, Turbo
Some may be unloved model's now but Dinos were sub £25k for years, now you can add a zero to that figure.
80quattro said:
Up until early 2014, a nice Porsche 996 Turbo could be had for £25k. This same car is now £30k. Crazy when you consider 997 Turbo's start at high £30k's.
You're spot on! Just sold mine for what I paid for it 4 years ago and with double the mileage. The interest when I put in to the classifieds was mad! Maybe I underpriced it!? Fantastic cars so can certainly appreciate the attraction. Now, where's that Interceptor...Billie, I suggest you read this month's Octane. They point out that the majority of cars are now well out of the reach of us "enthusiasts" and now in the hands of the wealthy and rich, who have deep pockets. These people spend more in a day than I get a year, plus they have the deep pockets to maintain the cars and "be seen" in their cars. We are dinosaurs, you and I, to be consigned to the scrapheap of history. Enjoy, because your kids will sell and retire on the proceeds.
I know your right Tony, i wish i could move on with it all, I spose at least we`ve got some cars to enjoy, and as for the kids, well my son cant wait to get his hands on them !! I heard today that he`s driving one of the XK`s and i`m driving the 3.8 down to classic Le mans in 016 so that`ll be good fun.
Keep up the good work Tony
Billy.
Keep up the good work Tony
Billy.
I've got a lot of magazines from when my car was new (early seventies) for road tests and the like, and of course we've all seen the adverts for £1200 Bugattis and things like Bentleys being cheaper because they've been raced. But I was skimming through some magazines from the 2000s the other day before I recycle them and even comparing then to now, it's discouraging how much was reasonable then but not now - a cover article in classic cars on a select of stuff including Maserati Bora (or Merak, I forget) at £15k, or Ferrari 308GTB for £18995 in the back.
It's easy to look at the seventies prices like those in the advert above and forget about how much money that was compared to an average salary, but I just don't feel there's been such a corresponding change since 2009.
It's easy to look at the seventies prices like those in the advert above and forget about how much money that was compared to an average salary, but I just don't feel there's been such a corresponding change since 2009.
Whilst comparing the values a decade or so ago and today, it's worth remembering that many of the more exotic cars for sale around, say £ 50k, a decade ago were unrestored, patched along by willing spanner-handy enthusiasts & fettled by affordable specialists, supported by a network of semi-affordable spares.
The same cars being sold today have often had 50%-75% or so of their current value spent on them by recent owners. As more are restored, the stock of affordable parts has dwindled, resulting in eye watering quotes for the rare original parts left over. Restoration specialists hourly rates seem to have gone up in proportion to values, way ahead of RPI inflation.
The earlier poster's comment about many now belong to wealthy collectors is interesting. I'm always amazed how many cars are apparently for sale by dealers, and wonder what would happen if a (temporary ?) fall in prices for 2 years or so would force many to sell stock. Does anyone know any statistics which show how many belong to enthusiasts who use them, how many belong to investor-collectors, and how many belong to dealers?
The same cars being sold today have often had 50%-75% or so of their current value spent on them by recent owners. As more are restored, the stock of affordable parts has dwindled, resulting in eye watering quotes for the rare original parts left over. Restoration specialists hourly rates seem to have gone up in proportion to values, way ahead of RPI inflation.
The earlier poster's comment about many now belong to wealthy collectors is interesting. I'm always amazed how many cars are apparently for sale by dealers, and wonder what would happen if a (temporary ?) fall in prices for 2 years or so would force many to sell stock. Does anyone know any statistics which show how many belong to enthusiasts who use them, how many belong to investor-collectors, and how many belong to dealers?
Not a clue, and I'd be surprised if the statistics are available. However, I do recall serious names that went under following the previous crash in 1992 and these included such as Frank Dale and Stepsons, the Rolls Royce dealer. I personally knew a chap about 30 yrs old who made £100,000 in a week buying and selling then six months later lost his house and everything. Another, a Ferrari owner who found he was a millionaire and lived like one for a short while until the market collapsed and he was heard of no more in club circles.
It seems that many dealers are now taking cars on consignment though, acting as brokers and taking a hefty cut on sale rather than risking their own money. Not long back, a friend was offered £85,000 cash for his Jaguar or £110,000 if sold on consignment. I would in their shoes since we have no idea where the market is going. I am oft reminded of the Investors Chronicle article the Friday before Black Monday when the market crashed; they said the market was set for another big leap forward.
It seems that many dealers are now taking cars on consignment though, acting as brokers and taking a hefty cut on sale rather than risking their own money. Not long back, a friend was offered £85,000 cash for his Jaguar or £110,000 if sold on consignment. I would in their shoes since we have no idea where the market is going. I am oft reminded of the Investors Chronicle article the Friday before Black Monday when the market crashed; they said the market was set for another big leap forward.
OP: 
I've been similarly disappointed. When I was a kid I had a model Ferrari 308 that I played with endlessly (I was born in '77, so the same time as they were made). I always thought if I saved up I could afford one, and they were about £30k, so I'm now in that position to own one, but the values have just taken off. I did even wonder if I could stretch to the £40k to £50k that 550s went for, but now they're climbing north of £80k! I also lusted after an Esprit, and curiously they're remaining down where they've always been...
I think the market is sustainable provided it doesn't get too silly. Modern cars have lost their appeal for many with less steering feel, chassis feel, true character etc and things will only get worse as hybrids gradually start to dominate the performance car market, which can only hold up the prices of 'proper' sports cars.
I've been similarly disappointed. When I was a kid I had a model Ferrari 308 that I played with endlessly (I was born in '77, so the same time as they were made). I always thought if I saved up I could afford one, and they were about £30k, so I'm now in that position to own one, but the values have just taken off. I did even wonder if I could stretch to the £40k to £50k that 550s went for, but now they're climbing north of £80k! I also lusted after an Esprit, and curiously they're remaining down where they've always been...I think the market is sustainable provided it doesn't get too silly. Modern cars have lost their appeal for many with less steering feel, chassis feel, true character etc and things will only get worse as hybrids gradually start to dominate the performance car market, which can only hold up the prices of 'proper' sports cars.
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