What constitutes a classic
Discussion
Russwhitehouse said:
Allegros are a good example of my original point. Is age alone sufficient?. I had one as my first car. Hateful thing and to my mind, and at the risk of offending, something to be consigned to the rubbish bin of motoring history.Classic only in as much it is a classic example of a crap car.
Well with the Allegro it's got more than age on it's side, it's got rarity. According to the (notoriously unreliable) howmanyleft.co.uk there's just around 12 Allegros left on the road, with a further 20 SORNed. Does the fact there are still 1,500 Ford Escorts on the road discount them as being classics as they are still quite common?
If the quality of my Allegro is anything to go by i'm suprised there are that many left running!I take your point with Escort numbers, but suspect there success in rallying back in the day has served them well when it comes to desirability and therefore more have been kept on the road/restored over the years. The poor old Allegro was somewhat doomed from the get go.
My fantasy garage contains an Allegro Estate with VDP trim and a rework along the lines of the amazing Project Binky Mini. Of course it would have to retain the quartic steering wheel.
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As to the original topic, I think the word 'classic' has many meanings. Say I had an A35, work colleagues might describe me as 'Him with the classic car' but at the annual owners club meeting it's just another old A35. Unless my A35 was the car Graham Hill used to race, then it's a 'Classic' car.
Does that make sense?
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As to the original topic, I think the word 'classic' has many meanings. Say I had an A35, work colleagues might describe me as 'Him with the classic car' but at the annual owners club meeting it's just another old A35. Unless my A35 was the car Graham Hill used to race, then it's a 'Classic' car.
Does that make sense?
Edited by threespires on Tuesday 12th May 23:16
From the practical point of view the only deffinition of a classic that actually matters is "a car you can get on a classic car insurance policy". Not sure there's any other situation where calling it a second-hand/shed/banger/modern-classic/classic/vintage/etc car actually makes a difference.
Russwhitehouse said:
What about the Austin A35? Only ever designed as a mundane and utterly forgettable runaround, and frankly fairly hideous too look at. Now suddenly it's a race car with a whole series and an academy built around it! Sorry, I just don't see it. With the greatest of respect to those involved and who no doubt have a great time racing them.............then again I might have just answered my own question!
I can't be doing with snobbery or elitism, coming as I do from a very modest background and having done it the hard way, but nonetheless, I still adhere to the ethos that a classic has to have a certain extra something other than years under its' belt and that other cars of a similar vintage just don't possess.
Mishima thinks along the same lines as me methinks.
Its about heritage and the A35 plays an important part of that. Just because it doesn't have that something special doesn't make it any less the classic. It was cheap, practical, comfy and great fun to "do up" back in the day when we couldn't afford anything else. Not all 'boy racer' cars in the '70's were Escorts, Cortinas or Minis.. Its also a great way to get into classics as it won't break your bank or your heart. I can't be doing with snobbery or elitism, coming as I do from a very modest background and having done it the hard way, but nonetheless, I still adhere to the ethos that a classic has to have a certain extra something other than years under its' belt and that other cars of a similar vintage just don't possess.
Mishima thinks along the same lines as me methinks.
//j17 said:
The only deffinition that works for me is a old car that someone's willing to spend more on repairing than the car may end up being worth.
So a Reliant Robin is a classic and an E Type isn't ? I don't think I can agree with your definition.Veteran and Vintage cars are defined purely on their date of manufacture and it's time we had some agreed definition for cars made in various periods post war.
The alternative is to simply categorise any car over a certain age a Classic e.g. anything 30 years old or more.
Well, it depends on the E-type frankly. With values of 1961/2 flat floors as they are you could build a new car from parts cheaper, so it isn't the same really. I mean, in effect even in the worst of accidents the car can never be a write off, like many up-market classics today. And as regards the comment that it's a classic if it qualifies for classic insurance, I obviously made a howling mistake when I sold my year 2000 Mercedes C220 CDi estate auto last year since it was on classic insurance.
No, a classic is in the eye of the beholder, but I am pretty sure that an Astra diesel, a Nova, an Allegro and a 1275 Marina won't really ever be mentioned in the same breath as other classics although to be fair my hat is doffed to those who save them. We need people like them.
No, a classic is in the eye of the beholder, but I am pretty sure that an Astra diesel, a Nova, an Allegro and a 1275 Marina won't really ever be mentioned in the same breath as other classics although to be fair my hat is doffed to those who save them. We need people like them.
If you wanted a definition based on value I suppose you could look along the lines of when the car has stopped depreciating and the values have started to curve upwards again. This would surely indicates that someone somewhere values them.
Even here there can be exceptions though. Before becoming a Jag owner I had a Celica GT4, an ST185. I bought it from the local main Toyota dealer and sold it back to him about 2 years later for what I'd paid for it. The ST205 had come out and was significantly more expensive new and had pulled up the values of the previous model.
But normally cars depreciate till they reach the point of just being old cars, then magically the few survivors start to go up in value again. Is this then the classic point?
Even here there can be exceptions though. Before becoming a Jag owner I had a Celica GT4, an ST185. I bought it from the local main Toyota dealer and sold it back to him about 2 years later for what I'd paid for it. The ST205 had come out and was significantly more expensive new and had pulled up the values of the previous model.
But normally cars depreciate till they reach the point of just being old cars, then magically the few survivors start to go up in value again. Is this then the classic point?
mph said:
//j17 said:
The only deffinition that works for me is a old car that someone's willing to spend more on repairing than the car may end up being worth.
So a Reliant Robin is a classic and an E Type isn't ? I don't think I can agree with your definition.may
Modal verb: expressing possibility.
"that may be true"
An untouched Reliant Robin with 12 miles on the clock and a split wiper blade might only cost £3 to repair but be worth more than that at the end. Likewise a '73 E-Type S3 2+2 FHC (lowest-valued model) that's spent the bulk of the last 40 years in a waterlogged famers field being vandalised by the local kids and is now just a pile of rust and one cracked real light may cost more than the 42k final value of a fully restored concours car.
Edited by //j17 on Wednesday 13th May 17:30
a8hex said:
If you wanted a definition based on value I suppose you could look along the lines of when the car has stopped depreciating and the values have started to curve upwards again. This would surely indicates that someone somewhere values them.
Even here there can be exceptions though. Before becoming a Jag owner I had a Celica GT4, an ST185. I bought it from the local main Toyota dealer and sold it back to him about 2 years later for what I'd paid for it. The ST205 had come out and was significantly more expensive new and had pulled up the values of the previous model.
But normally cars depreciate till they reach the point of just being old cars, then magically the few survivors start to go up in value again. Is this then the classic point?
I agree with this philosophy and mentioned it a couple of pages ago. But people don't like quantitative measures......Even here there can be exceptions though. Before becoming a Jag owner I had a Celica GT4, an ST185. I bought it from the local main Toyota dealer and sold it back to him about 2 years later for what I'd paid for it. The ST205 had come out and was significantly more expensive new and had pulled up the values of the previous model.
But normally cars depreciate till they reach the point of just being old cars, then magically the few survivors start to go up in value again. Is this then the classic point?
I also like the definition of when a car insurance company allows you to insure a car as a 'classic' too. But I would love to know the definition of a 'classic' used by the insurance companies?
Mike
Anything based on values or expenditure is impossible to implement. What happens after a financial crash, do the cars suddenly cease to be classics ?
What about two cars of the same make/model - is one a classic because it's had more spent on it while the other isn't because it was in good condition ?
From the number of fruitless threads on this subject it's clear that confining the term classic to a particular make/model is a non-starter. It can only be based on the age of the vehicle.
In Germany I believe they're called Oldtimers ? I wonder if they have a definition for that ?
What about two cars of the same make/model - is one a classic because it's had more spent on it while the other isn't because it was in good condition ?
From the number of fruitless threads on this subject it's clear that confining the term classic to a particular make/model is a non-starter. It can only be based on the age of the vehicle.
In Germany I believe they're called Oldtimers ? I wonder if they have a definition for that ?
mike9009 said:
a8hex said:
If you wanted a definition based on value I suppose you could look along the lines of when the car has stopped depreciating and the values have started to curve upwards again. This would surely indicates that someone somewhere values them.
Even here there can be exceptions though. Before becoming a Jag owner I had a Celica GT4, an ST185. I bought it from the local main Toyota dealer and sold it back to him about 2 years later for what I'd paid for it. The ST205 had come out and was significantly more expensive new and had pulled up the values of the previous model.
But normally cars depreciate till they reach the point of just being old cars, then magically the few survivors start to go up in value again. Is this then the classic point?
I agree with this philosophy and mentioned it a couple of pages ago. But people don't like quantitative measures......Even here there can be exceptions though. Before becoming a Jag owner I had a Celica GT4, an ST185. I bought it from the local main Toyota dealer and sold it back to him about 2 years later for what I'd paid for it. The ST205 had come out and was significantly more expensive new and had pulled up the values of the previous model.
But normally cars depreciate till they reach the point of just being old cars, then magically the few survivors start to go up in value again. Is this then the classic point?
I also like the definition of when a car insurance company allows you to insure a car as a 'classic' too. But I would love to know the definition of a 'classic' used by the insurance companies?
Mike
//j17 said:
mph said:
//j17 said:
The only deffinition that works for me is a old car that someone's willing to spend more on repairing than the car may end up being worth.
So a Reliant Robin is a classic and an E Type isn't ? I don't think I can agree with your definition.Russwhitehouse said:
Fair points well made. However, it brings us back to the original question, does something designed as simply a cheap economical forgettable runaround warrant classic status simply by being old?
Mini? They were the basic of basics which is how they were designed to be, but a true classic. What I'm not buying is "classic" Mondeos, Cavaliers etc.. I can't see them as classics, yet they turn up at shows so no doubt that'll be more justified as time goes on.
There's no rules for this, its in the eye of the beholder. Like the guy on the gate at Brooklands who turned away a guy in a '70's Ambassador/Princess as "not being a classic" Totally disagree with that even though I wouldn't want one..
Rather than the EYE I think a lot of it is in the AGE of the beholder.
I was born in '73 so went through that young boy phase of knowing all the cool, contemporary cars my dad didn't own in the late 70s/80s. A few years later when I had a little cash in my pocket I bought one of those 'classics', or to put it another way a 20 year-old car.
At a guess to someone born in '83 my classics was one of the uncool and embarrassing cars their dad DID own, not the cool contemporary ones and so when they buy one of their 'classics' it's going to be an 80's/90's car.
I was born in '73 so went through that young boy phase of knowing all the cool, contemporary cars my dad didn't own in the late 70s/80s. A few years later when I had a little cash in my pocket I bought one of those 'classics', or to put it another way a 20 year-old car.
At a guess to someone born in '83 my classics was one of the uncool and embarrassing cars their dad DID own, not the cool contemporary ones and so when they buy one of their 'classics' it's going to be an 80's/90's car.
The Classic Car club of America definition is that a car becomes a classic when it reaches 30 years old.
Personally I think this is a good working definition.
Regarding Insurance. Classic Insurers vary slightly on how they qualify a car for classic insurance but it's predominantly based on it's age, not it's value, cost to restore or perceived desirability.
I have a 12 year old Porsche on my classic policy - the insurers categorise it as a "future classic"
Personally I think this is a good working definition.
Regarding Insurance. Classic Insurers vary slightly on how they qualify a car for classic insurance but it's predominantly based on it's age, not it's value, cost to restore or perceived desirability.
I have a 12 year old Porsche on my classic policy - the insurers categorise it as a "future classic"
Edited by mph on Friday 15th May 10:11
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