The new Jaguar lightweights
Discussion
Candellara said:
cjb44 said:
Lord March should practice what he preaches, the Goodwood events are full of replica's and cars that are far from how they were originally produced.
Correct. Although he's quite happy to have replica GT40's run at the 2013 Revival? - 23 -- GT40 P/1029 replica -- 1 MUF -- James "Jimi" Cottingham | Andrew Smith
- 14 -- M1/10002 Gelscoe replica
EXKAY120 said:
Come on Austin....keep up with the class, it was on Channel 4 last night at 9pm, well worth a look whatever your views, i think we'd all love to own one of these fab, a pretty special bit of kit, is it a replica ? course it is, if someone when out and copied one of our lovely 3.8's we'd be livid, surely. would'nt we ?
Apologies, I tend to not watch much TV and was in the garage making room for a new lathe that is coming on Sunday 
I'll try and give it a watch over the weekend, always good to see people making things with care.
So if Crosswaite (opposite my kid's school) makes parts of these and made the Auto Unions, why have the latter been accepted with open arms by Goodwood but the Jags not?
200Plus Club said:
historic racing is very hypocritical. triggers brooms as someone mentioned
I agree but Lord March firmly stated that "recreations / replica's" even if built by Jaguar - would not be invited to attend Goodwood Events?and yet, Revival 2013 clearly had replica GT40's attend and race
Like my original in the shed - it can scare me witless should I really floor it, yes been driving it a long time so no newbies to e tpes, thanks to Tony Shaw (r.i.p) superb engine builder and mechanical engineer for rebuild some fifteen years ago.
Agree no need for the case and watch crap, typical marketing type bull and personnel to me.
Could do with my bonnet having that paint treatment - what a car from 1961 and to this day.
Agree no need for the case and watch crap, typical marketing type bull and personnel to me.
Could do with my bonnet having that paint treatment - what a car from 1961 and to this day.
Aren't there plenty of "Historic" races that do allow non period cars?
While they might not get to race at the revival I bet there will be plenty of place the new owners can play with their toys. There are a lot of people making Lightweight E-Types now, CMC laser scanned the Lindner/Nocker car at the end of the rebuild with the intention of making some and there are others both in the UK and Australia and who knows where else making them. Why shouldn't Jaguar make some. As long as Jaguar don't start to go all Mercedes on us and suing anyone who is making anything that looks vaguely like anything they may once have made. Other companies have done it, why not Jaguar.
I'd like to see the XKSS's they make next.
The argument about racing these modern recreations against the period originals was well summed up Sean Lynn but it isn't new. These cars will be faster, they are built to tolerances that weren't possible on the budget available then and probably use materials that weren't available then either. They'll be driven harder, no one will really care about blowing up one of these engines, C&G will make you a replacement, you won't destroy any history, and you'll be less worried about damaging the rest of the car since if you can afford one in the first place then presumably you can afford one of the new bonnets that Jaguar have sitting on a shelf for you. This is an argument that has been gone over a many times and different events will chose how they want to play it. I spoke to Peter Neumark when they were just finishing off the Lindner/Nocker car about whether he'd race it and he explained that it was now too fragile, what they'd done couldn't be done again if it was crashed, so he use it and display it but alas not actually race it.
While they might not get to race at the revival I bet there will be plenty of place the new owners can play with their toys. There are a lot of people making Lightweight E-Types now, CMC laser scanned the Lindner/Nocker car at the end of the rebuild with the intention of making some and there are others both in the UK and Australia and who knows where else making them. Why shouldn't Jaguar make some. As long as Jaguar don't start to go all Mercedes on us and suing anyone who is making anything that looks vaguely like anything they may once have made. Other companies have done it, why not Jaguar.
I'd like to see the XKSS's they make next.
The argument about racing these modern recreations against the period originals was well summed up Sean Lynn but it isn't new. These cars will be faster, they are built to tolerances that weren't possible on the budget available then and probably use materials that weren't available then either. They'll be driven harder, no one will really care about blowing up one of these engines, C&G will make you a replacement, you won't destroy any history, and you'll be less worried about damaging the rest of the car since if you can afford one in the first place then presumably you can afford one of the new bonnets that Jaguar have sitting on a shelf for you. This is an argument that has been gone over a many times and different events will chose how they want to play it. I spoke to Peter Neumark when they were just finishing off the Lindner/Nocker car about whether he'd race it and he explained that it was now too fragile, what they'd done couldn't be done again if it was crashed, so he use it and display it but alas not actually race it.
As someone with personal experience of racing at the Festival with a replica, Lord March was somewhat more specific when I talked with him in 2011. He was happy to accept my C-type and let it race because the originals no longer existed. Similarly, the saddle tank Lancia Ferraris and the shark nose were invited to the Revival on the same basis, as, he intimated, will be the Kettle C-type. I can't comment on the above, but I do know that in the D-type race there were a few "replicas"; that is to say cars that disappeared many moons back and suddenly and miraculously reappeared claiming the lost chassis number.
a8hex said:
The argument about racing these modern recreations against the period originals was well summed up Sean Lynn but it isn't new. These cars will be faster, they are built to tolerances that weren't possible on the budget available then and probably use materials that weren't available then either.
Couldn't the same be said of Newey's lwt E - hasn't that been taken to a level even above what the 'new' Jags are.....??I can't see that the reference to tolerances holds water Ken. The cars weigh the same since they are built to the same specifications and alloy thickness, and Crosthwaite and Gardner hold a virtual monopoly on building lightweight engines. I would suggest that most of those racing today have had a complete rebuild to current specification and give the same bhp as the "continuation" cars.
lowdrag said:
I can't see that the reference to tolerances holds water Ken. The cars weigh the same since they are built to the same specifications and alloy thickness, and Crosthwaite and Gardner hold a virtual monopoly on building lightweight engines. I would suggest that most of those racing today have had a complete rebuild to current specification and give the same bhp as the "continuation" cars.
Are the period originals allowed to race with C&G engines?OK, I guess everything in the originals being raced has probably been rebuilt a few times by now.
a8hex said:
Are the period originals allowed to race with C&G engines?
OK, I guess everything in the originals being raced has probably been rebuilt a few times by now.
I remember Nick Mason saying that his 250 GTO races with a new engine fitted because the original unit is too valuable to risk blowing up in a race. I guess so long as any new engine conforms to the same specification as an original then it isn't really a problem. It's better to see the cars racing like that than not at all.OK, I guess everything in the originals being raced has probably been rebuilt a few times by now.
lowdrag said:
As someone with personal experience of racing at the Festival with a replica, Lord March was somewhat more specific when I talked with him in 2011. He was happy to accept my C-type and let it race because the originals no longer existed. Similarly, the saddle tank Lancia Ferraris and the shark nose were invited to the Revival on the same basis, as, he intimated, will be the Kettle C-type. I can't comment on the above, but I do know that in the D-type race there were a few "replicas"; that is to say cars that disappeared many moons back and suddenly and miraculously reappeared claiming the lost chassis number.
Could the distinction be that replica's have been allowed if the original no longer exists or they are remanufactured using original parts? I'm thinking here of cars like the Cameron Millar 250's or the various D-types all claiming provenance to the same chassis number. Whereas these new E-types, are just that, brand new, albeit manufactured in the same way.Candellara said:
200Plus Club said:
historic racing is very hypocritical. triggers brooms as someone mentioned
I agree but Lord March firmly stated that "recreations / replica's" even if built by Jaguar - would not be invited to attend Goodwood Events?and yet, Revival 2013 clearly had replica GT40's attend and race
A provable claim to a chassis number has been the basis for claiming provenance so as these cars have chassis numbers listed by Jaguar in the 60's there is no doubt of their provenance.
So what if these cars don't get an invitation to run at Goodwood, there's plenty of other events. When the owners of the 12 originals won't take them out on track you can bet Goodwood will be inviting the owners of these "new" cars.
As beautiful as the E-Type is especially the lightweight `continuation` i sat there at the end of the program and thought....1.2 million quid........no thanks.There are a great number of superb classic cars on the market that have`history and pedigree` that 1.2 million pounds could buy.
It all seemed a bit cynical to me, the original cars were built as racecars, nobody would have agonised over virtually undetectable flaws in the leather or paint finish. And as for the invitation only owners, really? I wonder whether the owners were selected on the basis of their likliehood to use the cars in anger, or their ability to hand over a big chunk of money.
I'm not really sure why Jaguar did it, the money raised can't be significant in the scheme of things, and is the publicity that useful?
I'm not really sure why Jaguar did it, the money raised can't be significant in the scheme of things, and is the publicity that useful?
These funny ol cars that we all love eh...amazing how we can all debate in such detail whats right and whats wrong, but thats what makes us enjoy it all i guess. Look at the bigger picture and enjoy i say.
Most of our cars ,well certainly my Jaguars are more "replica" rather than original,most of the parts have been replaced, it allways amazes me that some folk are paranoid that a car has to have "original numbers" matching car, but its ok if its got a brand new body,new interior new wheels, new paint ect ect, there must be very very few of our lovely old cars that are "original" even tho they have "matching numbers" or not !! as the case may be, because of course the numbers were never, ever, ground off and re stamped.......were they ??? surely not ?
Most of our cars ,well certainly my Jaguars are more "replica" rather than original,most of the parts have been replaced, it allways amazes me that some folk are paranoid that a car has to have "original numbers" matching car, but its ok if its got a brand new body,new interior new wheels, new paint ect ect, there must be very very few of our lovely old cars that are "original" even tho they have "matching numbers" or not !! as the case may be, because of course the numbers were never, ever, ground off and re stamped.......were they ??? surely not ?
There seemed to be two groups involved in the build. The two Engineering leads and the craftsmen actually building the cars, and then those two plums in the shiny suits who were poncing about with suitcases and watches. They would have been better concentrating on the former and ditching the latter.
gifdy said:
There seemed to be two groups involved in the build. The two Engineering leads and the craftsmen actually building the cars, and then those two plums in the shiny suits who were poncing about with suitcases and watches. They would have been better concentrating on the former and ditching the latter.
The parts involving the two plums was verging on parody. 
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