The new Jaguar lightweights

[Roy C]

Leithen said:

gifdy said:

There seemed to be two groups involved in the build. The two Engineering leads and the craftsmen actually building the cars, and then those two plums in the shiny suits who were poncing about with suitcases and watches. They would have been better concentrating on the former and ditching the latter.

The parts involving the two plums was verging on parody.

Ooo, sir. Leather suitcase, sir? Suit you sir!

[4v6]

Im left wondering how the heck the rest of us out here in reality land can ever hope to aquire the necessary riches necessary to own such vehicles?

Isnt it all rather excessive?
I would sell both my balls for a Bugatti Veyron supersport but what chance have I, a mere working class guy got of ever achieving such a dream? (the veyron, not the selling of balls).

It seems to me that rather than attempting to include people who cant afford to buy into the dream, theyre affording it to people who are in the top percent of earners who can and to hell with everyone else.

I hate that. Love the car tho.

[lowdrag]

Your frustration is palpable. Surely, the owning of a supercar today is not just the purchase price, but the insurance and the servicing too. None of us can afford these prices today no more than I could have afforded a 250GTO in 1963 (my salary was £300 pa) nor to buy an E-type today - yet I have one I bought 33 years ago and which costs me a mere £300 to insure and £150 to service each year. Unlike today's supercars I don't need a fully stamped service history. I count myself fortunate to have one, but cannot but foresee that on my demise the car will fall into the hands of some uber-rich millionaire as a demonstrable extension of his wealth.

[ORD]

4v6 said:

Im left wondering how the heck the rest of us out here in reality land can ever hope to aquire the necessary riches necessary to own such vehicles?

Isnt it all rather excessive?
I would sell both my balls for a Bugatti Veyron supersport but what chance have I, a mere working class guy got of ever achieving such a dream? (the veyron, not the selling of balls).

It seems to me that rather than attempting to include people who cant afford to buy into the dream, theyre affording it to people who are in the top percent of earners who can and to hell with everyone else.

I hate that. Love the car tho.

Strange post.

You seem to be suggesting that Jaguar should operate as a charity. It's a business with employees to pay, finance to raise and shareholders to keep happy.

[EXKAY120]

I dont think its a strange post, i understand exactly what he means and agree with him.

[The Vambo]

4v6 said:

It seems to me that rather than attempting to include people who cant afford to buy into the dream, theyre affording it to people who are in the top percent of earners who can and to hell with everyone else.

I hate that. Love the car tho.

I don't think reproduction Trabants would sell, Comrade.

[Simpo Two]

It seemd to me an odd thing for Jaguar to be harking back to their heritage/glory days when in recent years they have worked so hard to remove all traces of 'Jaguarness' from their range.

I wish they had spent the time and effort building a new E-Type for a price that would make it a genuine proposition for all, not a millionaire's folly. And a four-seater convertible that looks like a Jag too please.

[a8hex]

4v6 said:

Im left wondering how the heck the rest of us out here in reality land can ever hope to aquire the necessary riches necessary to own such vehicles?

Isnt it all rather excessive?

I hate that. Love the car tho.

Tis the duty of the monied man
to pay the wages of the artisan.

We might well hate the excess involved, but I'm sure we all admire the craftsmanship involved. Someone has to pay the wages of the craftsman and if this is what it takes, so be it. We might hate the idea of those watches being a "present" as part of the package, a marketing whim, but they were hand made by people with skills I'll never posses. Projects like this keep skills alive that our hobby relies on. Whether it's craftsmen at Jaguar hand forming the panels, or at the many other little companies all over this country, and all over the world, lovingly taking sheets of metal and producing the curves we admire, those skill need people to pay for them or they'll die and that my friend would be a loss to the world that none of us surely wants to see happen.

[4rephill]

As with others, I could appreciate the craftsmanship that went into making these cars, but one sentence summed up a big problem with the cars: "Superb work! - They were never this good back in the 60's!".

So on the basis of that, how "original" are these cars really? - Not very, I would say.

Another issue with these cars is that they have absolutely no pedigree whatsoever!

The original cars are all time served and have a proper racing history behind them. These cars have seen battle on track, and survived, making them incredibly special.

The new cars are just pretenders! - Very well made pretenders, but pretenders never the less.

As for Lord March, Goodwood is his event and it is up to him what he allows to run and I can see his point about these cars. They are new cars and do not qualify, especially as the original time served cars continue to entertain on track, just as they did back in the 60's.

If it were a case of the originals no longer existing then yes, he would probably allow them to be at the event at least, to give a taste of what the originals were like, but the originals are available and proudly take part.

Some cars that run at Goodwood are replicas/recreations? So what? Does that mean Lord March should allow every replica/recreation to run? It's his event and up to him what he allows to run.

Don't like it? - Tough! Start your own event if you want every replica/recreation to be allowed to run.

[Pistom]

Simpo Two said:

It seemd to me an odd thing for Jaguar to be harking back to their heritage/glory days when in recent years they have worked so hard to remove all traces of 'Jaguarness' from their range.

I wish they had spent the time and effort building a new E-Type for a price that would make it a genuine proposition for all, not a millionaire's folly. And a four-seater convertible that looks like a Jag too please.

I don't think it is strange. Heritage and glory build brand strength and the cars were not built for a profit but as marketing exercise to reinforce and promote future and existing products.

With cars like the current XJ, F type etc, I see those products as a far stronger statement of Jaguar progression than anything produced from the 70s until recently.

The F-type seems as affordable and as exotic to me now as an E early in its life. The main difference being that the F doesn't just look pretty. It's quite a good car in its own right.

As for a 4 seat convertible? When did that layout denote a Jaguar?

It makes about as much sense as a Porsche saloon or SUV. It will never happen.

[DonkeyApple]

4v6 said:

Im left wondering how the heck the rest of us out here in reality land can ever hope to aquire the necessary riches necessary to own such vehicles?

Isnt it all rather excessive?
I would sell both my balls for a Bugatti Veyron supersport but what chance have I, a mere working class guy got of ever achieving such a dream? (the veyron, not the selling of balls).

It seems to me that rather than attempting to include people who cant afford to buy into the dream, theyre affording it to people who are in the top percent of earners who can and to hell with everyone else.

I hate that. Love the car tho.

The vast majority of the global super wealthy are from working class backgrounds. Certainly the largest group of high earners in the UK are from the working class. So statistically you have a far better chance than anyone you seem to think has a head start.

[4v6]

The Vambo said:

I don't think reproduction Trabants would sell, Comrade.

• sighs*

Theyd not sell if they cost a million quid a pop either....

Im not bemoaning the ideals of producing such cars as the lightweight, im all for it, but come on, the constant catering for the rich and shameless is aggravating to both me and surely others since they represent a minority amongst REAL car enthusiasts yet the attention lavished upon them is wholly disproportionate...imho.
And your communism reference doesnt enter in to it btw.

[4v6]

DonkeyApple said:

The vast majority of the global super wealthy are from working class backgrounds. Certainly the largest group of high earners in the UK are from the working class. So statistically you have a far better chance than anyone you seem to think has a head start.

Statistics can mean anything to anyone.

Statistically I should be a powerfully built company director with a gaggle of hot chicks servicing my every whim and clients queueing up to lob obscenely large quantities of hard currency and coke my direction..... they aint and neither am I.
Still, I can dream.

[ORD]

DonkeyApple said:

The vast majority of the global super wealthy are from working class backgrounds. Certainly the largest group of high earners in the UK are from the working class. So statistically you have a far better chance than anyone you seem to think has a head start.

I call bullst re the UK.

[aeropilot]

ORD said:

DonkeyApple said:

The vast majority of the global super wealthy are from working class backgrounds. Certainly the largest group of high earners in the UK are from the working class. So statistically you have a far better chance than anyone you seem to think has a head start.

I call bullst re the UK.

Perhaps you should have a read of the current Top 25 on the UK rich list - not much 'old money' there, Duke of Westminster is now down in 9th place, plus the Earl of Cadogan is on it and a few foreign 'old money' families on the list, otherwise it's all 'new money'.

[ORD]

aeropilot said:

Perhaps you should have a read of the current Top 25 on the UK rich list - not much 'old money' there, Duke of Westminster is now down in 9th place, plus the Earl of Cadogan is on it and a few foreign 'old money' families on the list, otherwise it's all 'new money'.

The claim wasnt 'new money' but 'from working class backgrounds'. Very different.

[DonkeyApple]

ORD said:

aeropilot said:

Perhaps you should have a read of the current Top 25 on the UK rich list - not much 'old money' there, Duke of Westminster is now down in 9th place, plus the Earl of Cadogan is on it and a few foreign 'old money' families on the list, otherwise it's all 'new money'.

The claim wasnt 'new money' but 'from working class backgrounds'. Very different.

Not 'very diffierent' just 'potentially different'. I'm not talking people who earn. Few hundred k a year working for someone else like a lawyer, accountant, director etc. Those are fields dominated by the middle classes for obvious reasons. I'm looking at people in the top tier who earn well over 1m a year and there we are not looking at employees but founders. So the more obvious examples are the new wave of BTL professionals, media/sports, hedge fund owners, chain store operators (most recently pound stores). In fact any type of retail business where a single unit can be replicated again and again using leverage.

The wealthiest and genuinely smartest friends I have are from working class backgrounds. Their background didn't hold them back but threw them forward, driving them to massively over achieve beyond the nascent push of a middle class upbringing.

I don't have any time for people who blame their class for being why they cannot buy what they want to buy. It's not about someone's class, that's just an excuse. It's about themselves and their own personal failings. The very nature of the type who look for excuses explains why they are where they are and not happy about it.

Anyway, back to the cars: I suspect that Jaguar acknowledged very early on that if they didn't run a really wise PR initiative then these cars would be shunned by owners of the originals which are no longer remotely original and many are just replicas transporting an original vin plate around.

This is the risk of a collectors' market that is defined by tiny, arbitrary little points, all made up by owners, businesses and others with vested interests in defining the cars into ever smaller, elevated sub sects.

Personally, I don't think Jaguar are expecting these new cars to go racing which is why they are crafting matching luggage sets. They would just like the ability for them to do so as it will underpin the value. But most importantly, Jaguar need to ensure the cars are accepted in the paddock so that they can sell them in the first instance as most will be buying them for the purpose of club debentures.

[The Surveyor]

4v6 said:

The Vambo said:

I don't think reproduction Trabants would sell, Comrade.

• sighs*

Theyd not sell if they cost a million quid a pop either....

Im not bemoaning the ideals of producing such cars as the lightweight, im all for it, but come on, the constant catering for the rich and shameless is aggravating to both me and surely others since they represent a minority amongst REAL car enthusiasts yet the attention lavished upon them is wholly disproportionate...imho.
And your communism reference doesnt enter in to it btw.

These are headline cars amongst the glitterati, the owners being the people who are invited to the events which have always been based upon the old Brooklands mantra of 'the right crowd and no crowding'. Things haven't changed, it's just that us plebs get to see over the hedges a little more these days via TV and glossy classic car magazines.

Regardless, this is a marketing exercise timed around the launch of the new XE, all Jaguar are wanting to do is raise the profile of their business, get their cars being discussed in the same breath as historic Ferrari and Aston Martin race cars all to try and strengthen the perception that their new XE has a stronger heritage than a 3 series or an A4. We may not be able to afford one of the lightweights, but it may help one or two of use tick 'Jaguar XE' on the company car list.

[gibbon]

4v6 said:

• sighs*

the constant catering for the rich and shameless is aggravating to both me and surely others since they represent a minority amongst REAL car enthusiasts yet the attention lavished upon them is wholly disproportionate...imho.

So you cant be a real car enthusiast if you are wealthy?

[RYH64E]

DonkeyApple said:

Personally, I don't think Jaguar are expecting these new cars to go racing which is why they are crafting matching luggage sets. They would just like the ability for them to do so as it will underpin the value. But most importantly, Jaguar need to ensure the cars are accepted in the paddock so that they can sell them in the first instance as most will be buying them for the purpose of club debentures.

I'm sure i read somewhere that the cars aren't even road legal? So if they can't be driven on the roads, aren't eligible for the likes of Goodwood, and the new owners don't want to race them, what's the point in owning one?