Future Classics
Discussion
In principle, I think jith is right.
Except that AIRC - In the 80's, when I was practicing Bangernomics with 70s cars I was defending it by saying "You can't fix these modern cars yourself!" Same for the 90's when suddenly the mist cleared and 80's cars looked fixable, even for me.
However, there's no doubt that cars have changed in the last, say 7-8 years and now I really do find that I can look under the bonnet or behind the dash of a modern and not recognise anything.
Except that AIRC - In the 80's, when I was practicing Bangernomics with 70s cars I was defending it by saying "You can't fix these modern cars yourself!" Same for the 90's when suddenly the mist cleared and 80's cars looked fixable, even for me.
However, there's no doubt that cars have changed in the last, say 7-8 years and now I really do find that I can look under the bonnet or behind the dash of a modern and not recognise anything.
As long as the world turns there will be people who want the car they yearned for in their youth. Yesterday, parked outside the bar, a youngster about 8 yrs old asked me all kind of questions about the XKSS, including the bhp, age, and so on. Not that he'll probably want one, but whatever he wants when he grows up will he be able to find the spares? I'm not talking about ECUs, which I guess any 15 yr old will be able to make in his bedroom with his computer and a 3D printer, but more obscure things such as the auto-dim mirror, lateral airbags and so on, all of which he'll need for the 967-point MOT of the then day. Cars are just so complex today and while rich people will pay through the nose for parts for their Asterrarorgini, whither (sic) the price of parts for the Mr Average's car?
We intend keeping my wife's Alfa GT going, well, forever hopefully. The last model they made with the Busso V6 engine, still turns heads, most parts are available or can be made, if the ECU dies our mechanic can fit an aftermarket one if needs be. She has had the thing for years, and still loves it.
Diesels just aren't aspirational, so that's 50% of modern cars that won't qualify for me.
Diesels just aren't aspirational, so that's 50% of modern cars that won't qualify for me.
Someone makes the point a bit further up, I wonder if home mechanics will advance at a rate that means lots of the cars we would currently write off as a future classic as "too complicated" might become repairable to the basic man.
Thinking back 15 years ago when google/youtube/forums didn't exist, how many home mechanics would attempt half the work they are currently doing. You would be traditionally limited to a Haynes manual and the local classic group to help you on your way.
In 15 years time from now, how easy/cheap could it be to buy a pattern part like a generic ecu, and program it yourself from your apple "Ifixit", thus making cars we currently wouldn't attempt to work on, accessible for even the average three spanner rating mechanic
Thinking back 15 years ago when google/youtube/forums didn't exist, how many home mechanics would attempt half the work they are currently doing. You would be traditionally limited to a Haynes manual and the local classic group to help you on your way.
In 15 years time from now, how easy/cheap could it be to buy a pattern part like a generic ecu, and program it yourself from your apple "Ifixit", thus making cars we currently wouldn't attempt to work on, accessible for even the average three spanner rating mechanic
The other advantage of the internet is that it doesn't only pool knowledge, it pools demand, and therefore strongly encourages a supply of the parts we need.
It's entirely possible these days for someone somewhere to remanufacture an NLA component or develop a good aftermarket substitute for a market that would have been unviable in the 1980s or early 1990s because now he can capture pretty much the whole of the global user base for the car and reach them easily. With the advent of low cost cross-border payment mechanisms like PayPal we can now economically do transactions from the USA or Germany or Japan for something like a door seal or a steering pump rebuild kit. Or indeed an ECU. Similarly, today I can find parts from breakers across Europe at pretty much a touch of a button. In 1990 I would not even have been able to find out their phone numbers let alone ex[plain what I was looking for over the phone.
And if we want something from a manufacturer, like Porsche's periodic remanufacture of various body panels for obsolete models, they can use the online presences of the worldwide owners' clubs to assess when it's time and to ensure that the parts will be known about by owners who might want to pick them up while the batch is available.
It's entirely possible these days for someone somewhere to remanufacture an NLA component or develop a good aftermarket substitute for a market that would have been unviable in the 1980s or early 1990s because now he can capture pretty much the whole of the global user base for the car and reach them easily. With the advent of low cost cross-border payment mechanisms like PayPal we can now economically do transactions from the USA or Germany or Japan for something like a door seal or a steering pump rebuild kit. Or indeed an ECU. Similarly, today I can find parts from breakers across Europe at pretty much a touch of a button. In 1990 I would not even have been able to find out their phone numbers let alone ex[plain what I was looking for over the phone.
And if we want something from a manufacturer, like Porsche's periodic remanufacture of various body panels for obsolete models, they can use the online presences of the worldwide owners' clubs to assess when it's time and to ensure that the parts will be known about by owners who might want to pick them up while the batch is available.
Yes, for a given price level I think it's a good indicator.
Obviously where cars are worth seriously big money and exist in tiny numbers amongst people who are happy to chuck half a million at a refurb then it's less of an issue, but for mass market stuff that sells for prices comparable with most of the new cars sold, or less, let's say cars in the up to £40K range, then I think that's as good a guide to what will survive as anything.
The level of internet support and enthusiasm for ownership can itself be influenced by other important factors, especially whether the original manufacturer is still around in some form, and has shown evidence of a long term commitment to active support for older cars. Porsche is good in that way. Where manufacturers are long gone, e.g. some of the BL marques, then support from some credible heritage organisation and a healthy supply of spares and upgrades is a big help too
Obviously where cars are worth seriously big money and exist in tiny numbers amongst people who are happy to chuck half a million at a refurb then it's less of an issue, but for mass market stuff that sells for prices comparable with most of the new cars sold, or less, let's say cars in the up to £40K range, then I think that's as good a guide to what will survive as anything.
The level of internet support and enthusiasm for ownership can itself be influenced by other important factors, especially whether the original manufacturer is still around in some form, and has shown evidence of a long term commitment to active support for older cars. Porsche is good in that way. Where manufacturers are long gone, e.g. some of the BL marques, then support from some credible heritage organisation and a healthy supply of spares and upgrades is a big help too
Cactussed said:
Its far from over.
Suggestions is what's needed next!
Well, in the big engine category we have - Suggestions is what's needed next!
Chevy
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
Large american following and support, should find parts easy enough, and forums a plenty
Monaro
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
Cult classic, support from a large manufacture and our friends in Oz should lend us Holden parts
350z
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
First of the "modern" cars like this from the far east, people love jap cars, networks and information should be a plenty
VW collection -
Anything Anni/edition and petrol
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
personal choice - Pirelli edition Mk5
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
or
mk4 R32
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
Anything Anni/edition and petrol
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
personal choice - Pirelli edition Mk5
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
or
mk4 R32
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
frenchies
cant argue with a 172
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
or Gordini
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
cant argue with a 172
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
or Gordini
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
Corvette C4 would be a god bet. Rock bottom prices (just about, a year or so late, as they are already on the up).
Early 4+3 manual or 6 speeder. You won't lose any money on one and they'll be fun to drive own.
ZR-1's a good bet, but prices are already a bit silly for them. Also seem harder to find.
On the same note, C5 Vette, prices not bottomed out yet. But for a long term investment you know they will be sought after at some point. FRC or z06 would be the ones to buy.
Early 4+3 manual or 6 speeder. You won't lose any money on one and they'll be fun to drive own.
ZR-1's a good bet, but prices are already a bit silly for them. Also seem harder to find.
On the same note, C5 Vette, prices not bottomed out yet. But for a long term investment you know they will be sought after at some point. FRC or z06 would be the ones to buy.
300bhp/ton said:
ZR-1's a good bet, but prices are already a bit silly for them. Also seem harder to find.
I hope so, I've just bought one. They can still be found at very sensible prices over here, but some people are starting to fly a kite as with other classics. It's not as bad as the classic Porsche market though.I'm not as sceptical about the repairability of modern cars as I was.
As the ECUs etc go FUBAR rather than replacing it with some ludicrously expensive original the aftermarket will take-up the slack & people will move to standalone engine management.
Your modern Motecs, LIFE Racing, EMTRON, LINK, Syvecs etc can be flexibly programmed to run almost anything & can integrate with modern CAN bus systems which run other functions such as stability control, sophisticated 4WD DCTs etc.
The upper-end modern standalone ECUs are more powerful than the OEM stuff & may well be the salvation for high-end moderns when they fry their brains.
In respect of the more ubiqitious & prosaic stuff - yes - I agree that failed electronics will be their coupe de grace - but the rarer or semi-exotic staff will remain repairable.
As the ECUs etc go FUBAR rather than replacing it with some ludicrously expensive original the aftermarket will take-up the slack & people will move to standalone engine management.
Your modern Motecs, LIFE Racing, EMTRON, LINK, Syvecs etc can be flexibly programmed to run almost anything & can integrate with modern CAN bus systems which run other functions such as stability control, sophisticated 4WD DCTs etc.
The upper-end modern standalone ECUs are more powerful than the OEM stuff & may well be the salvation for high-end moderns when they fry their brains.
In respect of the more ubiqitious & prosaic stuff - yes - I agree that failed electronics will be their coupe de grace - but the rarer or semi-exotic staff will remain repairable.
Penguinracer said:
I'm not as sceptical about the repairability of modern cars as I was.
As the ECUs etc go FUBAR rather than replacing it with some ludicrously expensive original the aftermarket will take-up the slack & people will move to standalone engine management.
Your modern Motecs, LIFE Racing, EMTRON, LINK, Syvecs etc can be flexibly programmed to run almost anything & can integrate with modern CAN bus systems which run other functions such as stability control, sophisticated 4WD DCTs etc.
The upper-end modern standalone ECUs are more powerful than the OEM stuff & may well be the salvation for high-end moderns when they fry their brains.
In respect of the more ubiqitious & prosaic stuff - yes - I agree that failed electronics will be their coupe de grace - but the rarer or semi-exotic staff will remain repairable.
I agree with this, plus cottage industries are springing up. People who are prepared to re solder a PCB, replace a capacitor, hunt down or substitute an unusual relay etc.As the ECUs etc go FUBAR rather than replacing it with some ludicrously expensive original the aftermarket will take-up the slack & people will move to standalone engine management.
Your modern Motecs, LIFE Racing, EMTRON, LINK, Syvecs etc can be flexibly programmed to run almost anything & can integrate with modern CAN bus systems which run other functions such as stability control, sophisticated 4WD DCTs etc.
The upper-end modern standalone ECUs are more powerful than the OEM stuff & may well be the salvation for high-end moderns when they fry their brains.
In respect of the more ubiqitious & prosaic stuff - yes - I agree that failed electronics will be their coupe de grace - but the rarer or semi-exotic staff will remain repairable.
Most cars in the last 20yrs have part numbers on everything, making the job easier for dismantlers etc. Where there is a demand ingenuity will come to the fore.
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