Waterless coolant
Discussion
Slidingpillar said:
Pressure? What's that! My vintage Morgan has an unpressurised thermo-syphon cooling system. With that I either use 25% normal antifreeze, or a drop of corrosion inhibitor designed for central heating systems.
There are automotive corrosion inhibitors as well, have a look at the Motul Mocool and the Millers Extra Cool. Hadan interesting conversation with an aircraft mechanic who worked on Spitfires. He told me that during the war, if there was a delay before take-off, it was known for the cooling system to overheat and blow a hose (because the radiators were outside the airflow of the prop) and blow out all the glycol resulting in a fire. He also said that the Spitfire ran at temperatures as low as -12. If this is wrong, I'm open to correction but please don't shoot the messenger!
lowdrag said:
Hadan interesting conversation with an aircraft mechanic who worked on Spitfires. He told me that during the war, if there was a delay before take-off, it was known for the cooling system to overheat and blow a hose (because the radiators were outside the airflow of the prop) and blow out all the glycol resulting in a fire. He also said that the Spitfire ran at temperatures as low as -12. If this is wrong, I'm open to correction but please don't shoot the messenger!
I believe mark 1 Spitfires had a too small radiator and a second one was added for later planes. Service ceiling was 36500ft so even if the ground temperature was 15 Celcius, at the ceiling, it will be -57 c. Brrr! Slidingpillar said:
lowdrag said:
Hadan interesting conversation with an aircraft mechanic who worked on Spitfires. He told me that during the war, if there was a delay before take-off, it was known for the cooling system to overheat and blow a hose (because the radiators were outside the airflow of the prop) and blow out all the glycol resulting in a fire. He also said that the Spitfire ran at temperatures as low as -12. If this is wrong, I'm open to correction but please don't shoot the messenger!
I believe mark 1 Spitfires had a too small radiator and a second one was added for later planes Hi, I was reading this topic and thought I’d better join and reply as I have done this conversion some time ago. This’ll probably end up as quite a long post but hopefully being from someone who’s done and lived with the conversion it’ll be worth a read.
Firstly, I must explain that the car I did it on did not have any overheating issues at all, it was a 280 “Brooklands” Capri with 13,500 miles on it from new. Previously, I had fitted steel pistons in the brake callipers and (non hydroscopic) silicone brake fluid. These modern additions, which never need replacing are excellent – especially for a car that doesn’t move 7 months of the year.
So, I’m pretty keen on modern solutions that help preserve a car while reducing maintenance. My 280 has a myriad of hoses, something like 16 and I decided to replace these with lifetime silicone replicas of the originals. While doing this, I noted that the coolant had obviously not been changed for years as all the inhibitors had separated and what I drained from the system did not look healthy at all.
While looking for the ultimate coolant additive I stumbled across the Evans coolant which seems to answer every issue and then some. Perfect, though expensive – I needed 10 litres of coolant and got away with 5 of prep fluid @£160.
The conversion;
What a bloody pain in the arse.
To be fair, the 2.8 Cologne V6 is probably a particularly bad car to do this on due to the amount of hoses and therefore the amount of places coolant can sit.
You cannot mix Evans with water at all ideally, though it’s supposed to tolerate up to 3%. Well, there’s no way I’d risk that given how much grief and cost this all comes to. So, remove all hoses and the thermostat to release the water behind that – I replaced the thermostat while I was there as a precaution too. Now flush all parts of the system, including the heater matrix with a hose and then compressed air, trying to get every last part of water out. Leave for a few days in a heated garage with the system to give any remaining moisture the chance to evaporate. Fit all the hoses and fill the system with prep fluid and run the car around the block a few times. Drain the system of prep fluid which makes a similar mess to the water but is far harder to clean up and add in the fact you don’t know what it will do to paint if left. Refill the system with waterless coolant (at which point you can’t help but notice the much higher viscosity of the stuff) and proceed as a water mix apart from chasing leaks as this stuff is much more leaky that a traditional mix.
That brings me to a side issue, my car is immaculate and I mean, immaculate. The engine bay and underside of the car has a better paint finish than the top of my BMW F11 daily. This conversion made such a mess I cannot even begin to tell you, not only that but I’m sure I read somewhere that the fluid is harmful to paint – so if the conversion wasn’t already stressful enough...
I’ve had it in for two summers now, previously, whatever the weather the temperature needle never went above half. On an average 15 degree day it now sits at about 60% on the move and on a hot day in traffic maxes out at around 70% on the gauge. This is the single biggest draw-back, I never used to look at the temperature and now I look at it all the time and I’d be lying if I said it doesn’t stress me out about the temperature. To my thinking, the car is designed to work at its best at half way on the gauge and now it is always above that. It troubles me.
So, knowing what I know now, would I do it again? No way = 100%. Will I keep it in there now I’ve done it? Probably not, I’m undecided but it troubles me and I don’t tend to settle for that as a rule...
I’m looking at the no roision stuff (as it is the corrosion that was my original main concern). Or the Millers Cool stuff (I like Millers stuff – always had good experiences with it).
If I do swap back I will drain and refill the system every second year and will fit one of these these in the bottom hose. That way with a think pair of rubber gloves, a funnel and oil drain tray, I can open the system with a spanner, without removing any hoses while the thermostat is still open. It should make no mess and mean a full coolant swap will take about 20 minutes. It’s what I wished I’d done in the first place and what I would advise you to do.
Lastly, it’s been mentioned about it being flammable, to be balanced, I can’t say that concerns me. Petrol is flammable after all and that system is under more pressure than a waterless cooling system.
I hope this is post is of some use.
Firstly, I must explain that the car I did it on did not have any overheating issues at all, it was a 280 “Brooklands” Capri with 13,500 miles on it from new. Previously, I had fitted steel pistons in the brake callipers and (non hydroscopic) silicone brake fluid. These modern additions, which never need replacing are excellent – especially for a car that doesn’t move 7 months of the year.
So, I’m pretty keen on modern solutions that help preserve a car while reducing maintenance. My 280 has a myriad of hoses, something like 16 and I decided to replace these with lifetime silicone replicas of the originals. While doing this, I noted that the coolant had obviously not been changed for years as all the inhibitors had separated and what I drained from the system did not look healthy at all.
While looking for the ultimate coolant additive I stumbled across the Evans coolant which seems to answer every issue and then some. Perfect, though expensive – I needed 10 litres of coolant and got away with 5 of prep fluid @£160.
The conversion;
What a bloody pain in the arse.
To be fair, the 2.8 Cologne V6 is probably a particularly bad car to do this on due to the amount of hoses and therefore the amount of places coolant can sit.
You cannot mix Evans with water at all ideally, though it’s supposed to tolerate up to 3%. Well, there’s no way I’d risk that given how much grief and cost this all comes to. So, remove all hoses and the thermostat to release the water behind that – I replaced the thermostat while I was there as a precaution too. Now flush all parts of the system, including the heater matrix with a hose and then compressed air, trying to get every last part of water out. Leave for a few days in a heated garage with the system to give any remaining moisture the chance to evaporate. Fit all the hoses and fill the system with prep fluid and run the car around the block a few times. Drain the system of prep fluid which makes a similar mess to the water but is far harder to clean up and add in the fact you don’t know what it will do to paint if left. Refill the system with waterless coolant (at which point you can’t help but notice the much higher viscosity of the stuff) and proceed as a water mix apart from chasing leaks as this stuff is much more leaky that a traditional mix.
That brings me to a side issue, my car is immaculate and I mean, immaculate. The engine bay and underside of the car has a better paint finish than the top of my BMW F11 daily. This conversion made such a mess I cannot even begin to tell you, not only that but I’m sure I read somewhere that the fluid is harmful to paint – so if the conversion wasn’t already stressful enough...
I’ve had it in for two summers now, previously, whatever the weather the temperature needle never went above half. On an average 15 degree day it now sits at about 60% on the move and on a hot day in traffic maxes out at around 70% on the gauge. This is the single biggest draw-back, I never used to look at the temperature and now I look at it all the time and I’d be lying if I said it doesn’t stress me out about the temperature. To my thinking, the car is designed to work at its best at half way on the gauge and now it is always above that. It troubles me.
So, knowing what I know now, would I do it again? No way = 100%. Will I keep it in there now I’ve done it? Probably not, I’m undecided but it troubles me and I don’t tend to settle for that as a rule...
I’m looking at the no roision stuff (as it is the corrosion that was my original main concern). Or the Millers Cool stuff (I like Millers stuff – always had good experiences with it).
If I do swap back I will drain and refill the system every second year and will fit one of these these in the bottom hose. That way with a think pair of rubber gloves, a funnel and oil drain tray, I can open the system with a spanner, without removing any hoses while the thermostat is still open. It should make no mess and mean a full coolant swap will take about 20 minutes. It’s what I wished I’d done in the first place and what I would advise you to do.
Lastly, it’s been mentioned about it being flammable, to be balanced, I can’t say that concerns me. Petrol is flammable after all and that system is under more pressure than a waterless cooling system.
I hope this is post is of some use.
Interesting choice of brake fluid, a dot5. How do you get on with it?
I would not call it a modern addition, quite the opposite over a glycol based brake fluid for a car that gets used. Because dot5 brake fluids are hydrophobic it will not absorb water, on the face of it this sounds good however if you do get water into the brake system, say via condensation then the water will collect at the lowest point of the system it can get to. If this is in the caliper area it can lead to corrosion from the inside.
They do however absorb air, so if you get air into it, it can become compressible and this is something you don't want with your brake fluid. Dot5 is useful for vintage/classic cars in museums that don't move anywhere.
I would not call it a modern addition, quite the opposite over a glycol based brake fluid for a car that gets used. Because dot5 brake fluids are hydrophobic it will not absorb water, on the face of it this sounds good however if you do get water into the brake system, say via condensation then the water will collect at the lowest point of the system it can get to. If this is in the caliper area it can lead to corrosion from the inside.
They do however absorb air, so if you get air into it, it can become compressible and this is something you don't want with your brake fluid. Dot5 is useful for vintage/classic cars in museums that don't move anywhere.
We ran a Scimitar GTE as a daily, pretty soon after we switched it to Silicon fluid the brake master cylinder failed, then another and when the servo and the third cylinder went we tracked it back to coinciding with the switch in fluid. Each time the reservoir had fine black dust collecting at the bottom, this turned out to be the seals dying. We then went back to mineral fluid and kept one set of cylinders and servo until we sold the car. Never again!
opieoilman said:
Interesting choice of brake fluid, a dot5. How do you get on with it?
I would not call it a modern addition, quite the opposite over a glycol based brake fluid for a car that gets used. Because dot5 brake fluids are hydrophobic it will not absorb water, on the face of it this sounds good however if you do get water into the brake system, say via condensation then the water will collect at the lowest point of the system it can get to. If this is in the caliper area it can lead to corrosion from the inside.
They do however absorb air, so if you get air into it, it can become compressible and this is something you don't want with your brake fluid. Dot5 is useful for vintage/classic cars in museums that don't move anywhere.
+1. My calipers from the E-type are currently out and away to get the pistons out since several have seized. In 30 years I've never had a problem with DOT4, so that's going back in after all four Zeus brakes are refettled.I would not call it a modern addition, quite the opposite over a glycol based brake fluid for a car that gets used. Because dot5 brake fluids are hydrophobic it will not absorb water, on the face of it this sounds good however if you do get water into the brake system, say via condensation then the water will collect at the lowest point of the system it can get to. If this is in the caliper area it can lead to corrosion from the inside.
They do however absorb air, so if you get air into it, it can become compressible and this is something you don't want with your brake fluid. Dot5 is useful for vintage/classic cars in museums that don't move anywhere.
This thread is both an interesting and concerning read in equal measure.
Our DB6 has just been converted to running Evans Waterless coolant by an AM specialist. They have converted a number of DB's to run this and all with great success we are told.
The specialist had little to gain from doing the conversion as this portion of the job paled into insignificance compared to the other works they carried out so I can't imagine it was recommended for any reason other that they truly believe it works.
Our car has suffered overheating issues for years. Despite radiator re-cores and repeated flush and bleeds it gets very hot if sitting in traffic (which it does very very rarely!) and will rise from 90-100 as a norm straight to 115-120 within seconds. We have fans etc to try to control the rise but the water reacts to sitting so quickly that it is almost uncontrollable. My father, who does the vast majority of the car's 1k miles per annum (it's a Volante and driving with the hood up isn't nearly so pleasant....and we live in Scotland so sunny/non-rainy days can be hard to come by), knows how to drive it to avoid the boiling over but it has still happened when over on the West Coast climbing some mountain passes where engine load is high but forward speed is not.
For this reason, when offered Evans, we thought that it sounded just the thing. The temperature wouldn't rise so violently and control can therefore be brought back to the driver.
Since fitting the car has really only had a couple of runs so it too early to tell if it's truly working but I am aware that when reaching some very minor traffic the car was stationary for a few mins and the gauge never moved.
We are going on an Aston run next weekend over the Highlands and I plan to do most of the journey in the DB6. I'll note what the temps are doing and feedback any notes I make.
As a racer I am aware that Evans is not recommended at all for cars running on race circuits and, given the propensity for coolant to be dropped, I would absolutely advocate that it remains that way.
I also was not aware that Evans is flammable. Admittedly in the application in which we use it I cannot imagine anything it touches will be quite hot enough to ignite it but I could appreciate that a turbocharger or race header might stand a greater chance of ignition.
Our DB6 has just been converted to running Evans Waterless coolant by an AM specialist. They have converted a number of DB's to run this and all with great success we are told.
The specialist had little to gain from doing the conversion as this portion of the job paled into insignificance compared to the other works they carried out so I can't imagine it was recommended for any reason other that they truly believe it works.
Our car has suffered overheating issues for years. Despite radiator re-cores and repeated flush and bleeds it gets very hot if sitting in traffic (which it does very very rarely!) and will rise from 90-100 as a norm straight to 115-120 within seconds. We have fans etc to try to control the rise but the water reacts to sitting so quickly that it is almost uncontrollable. My father, who does the vast majority of the car's 1k miles per annum (it's a Volante and driving with the hood up isn't nearly so pleasant....and we live in Scotland so sunny/non-rainy days can be hard to come by), knows how to drive it to avoid the boiling over but it has still happened when over on the West Coast climbing some mountain passes where engine load is high but forward speed is not.
For this reason, when offered Evans, we thought that it sounded just the thing. The temperature wouldn't rise so violently and control can therefore be brought back to the driver.
Since fitting the car has really only had a couple of runs so it too early to tell if it's truly working but I am aware that when reaching some very minor traffic the car was stationary for a few mins and the gauge never moved.
We are going on an Aston run next weekend over the Highlands and I plan to do most of the journey in the DB6. I'll note what the temps are doing and feedback any notes I make.
As a racer I am aware that Evans is not recommended at all for cars running on race circuits and, given the propensity for coolant to be dropped, I would absolutely advocate that it remains that way.
I also was not aware that Evans is flammable. Admittedly in the application in which we use it I cannot imagine anything it touches will be quite hot enough to ignite it but I could appreciate that a turbocharger or race header might stand a greater chance of ignition.
James B said:
compared to the other works they carried out
Like bleeding it correctly, correcting retarded idle ignition timing or a lean idle mixture. Any of these three will have my TVR AJP8 engine doing exactly as you describe within seconds of the nice blast of air through the radiator stopping. Taking out the water/antifreeze mix and replacing it with an overpriced liquid with a lower specific heat capacity than what you removed is not the solution and you can be 100% sure if you drained out the snake oil and replaced with with water and antifreeze it would still run just the same but the fans would cut in less.
For about 50-60 £'s there is a remote thermometer type gun available that will remotely measure surface temperature simply by pointing and 'shooting'.
I have read some where of reported increases in cylinder head temp's of 30 % from 600 deg' F to 900+ deg' F when run on Evans. If you can afford to run a Aston, I would suggest
that one of these thermometers would make a sensible investment?
I have read some where of reported increases in cylinder head temp's of 30 % from 600 deg' F to 900+ deg' F when run on Evans. If you can afford to run a Aston, I would suggest
that one of these thermometers would make a sensible investment?
fatjon said:
James B said:
compared to the other works they carried out
Like bleeding it correctly, correcting retarded idle ignition timing or a lean idle mixture. Any of these three will have my TVR AJP8 engine doing exactly as you describe within seconds of the nice blast of air through the radiator stopping. Taking out the water/antifreeze mix and replacing it with an overpriced liquid with a lower specific heat capacity than what you removed is not the solution and you can be 100% sure if you drained out the snake oil and replaced with with water and antifreeze it would still run just the same but the fans would cut in less.The DB engines are known for water jacket issues around the back cylinders and our, as yet non-rebuilt, engine is likely just suffering from build up in that area. It is highly likely that we will spend the money at some point once the engine is in need of rebuild but its only covered 45k miles from new so it seemed a little premature to rebuild for that. During rebuild there are some modifications to be made to the block and head that will allow better flow and stop issues again.
Currently the car runs beautifully and i'll see if the coolant swap has been a good or bad thing next weekend.
Mr Teddy Bear said:
For about 50-60 £'s there is a remote thermometer type gun available that will remotely measure surface temperature simply by pointing and 'shooting'.
I have read some where of reported increases in cylinder head temp's of 30 % from 600 deg' F to 900+ deg' F when run on Evans. If you can afford to run a Aston, I would suggest
that one of these thermometers would make a sensible investment?
That's not a bad suggestion. We actually sell such devices through the tooling side of the business so I might well grab one and give it a test. I have read some where of reported increases in cylinder head temp's of 30 % from 600 deg' F to 900+ deg' F when run on Evans. If you can afford to run a Aston, I would suggest
that one of these thermometers would make a sensible investment?
Suppose I should probably offer my two cents' into the discussion. Ready for a mammoth posting?
I run Evans Waterless Coolants in three of my cars, currently. I plan to convert another two of them. Officially, my company is an agent for E.W.C (so if you have any genuine questions I'm happy to give a no-bulls
t honest response to them) though we don't sell much of it as the margins needed aren't there in order to compete with the various sellers on eBay offering it at 1% profit! (Hint, if you want the stuff, get it on eBay!) In any case, we're a vehicle workshop, not a retailer of products. I've also been a member of PH longer than I've been a company director (same thing, innit?)
My findings are as follows:
Car 1 - 1600cc DOHC, iron block/alloy head - been running it since Feb '15. This was the first car I converted
Only converted the car as I know it inside out, and knew that I'd spot any potential issues arising as a result of the conversion pretty quickly. When Evans approached my business to become an agent for the TVR side of things, I was initially hesitant (as any small business would be if someone is trying to sell them something), so took on a small order and decided to convert this car as a test bed. I felt I needed to experience the product myself before trying to convince people to buy it (as it happens, I don't really try to convince people at all, I just give them the option!) Prior to converting the car to waterless coolant, this car had been running on a 50/50 mix of water and ethylene glycol antifreeze (red). Previously no overheating problems, and mechanically in good health.
I was keen to test the claimed benefits of Evans coolant, so much so that I conducted dyno sessions immediately prior to, and after the conversion. Having rolling roaded many cars over the years, and been geekishly anal about figures and power curves, and how the book specifications differ to my figures, my opinion was that the claim that the coolant would increase power was likely to be false (after all, 99RON hasn't shown any increases in power on road cars during tests I've done, so why would coolant?!) I was also keen to see how the engine would behave with the waterless coolant fitted. Again, I knew the car well and knew I could 'abuse' it on the dyno without risk of breaking it (it's a ridiculously tough little bugger)
The first thing I did was dyno the car, and take a temperature reading:
This reading was taken immediately after the run had finished. It might look a bit low, but don't forget when you're pressing on down the road, your car will likely run cooler than in normal town driving, or sitting in traffic (apologies if there are any egg-sucking vibes being felt out there). Had I left it sitting there for 10mins after the run (carried out with a large fan to replicate airflow through the rad) it would have climbed to the 92degrees required to kick the first stage cooling fan in.
The dyno results of the first dyno run:
I then repeated the test after I'd converted the car (this car is running the PowerCool 180 product, but they're all pretty similar with minor differences separating them). Water content measured 1.19% (very hard to remove 100% of the water from a system you've just drained) but this is within the 3% operating window of the coolant (straying above the 3% basically reduces the efficiency of the conversion and lowers the boiling point/increases pressure at N.O.T)
The temperature result taken from the same point on the cooling system, and at the same interval was as follows:
The result being very slightly hotter than the run with regular coolant. This is to be expected, as water is about as good a thermal conductor as you can get. The waterless coolant is about 68-70% as effective as water. I see many posts from people saying "OMFG your engine will run 30% hotter!" and all that jazz. I'm not sure where this theory comes from, and I'm sure it can't be as simple as somebody subtracting 70% from 100 and assuming that's how it works!
My conclusion (supported by what I'd later learn by using the car) is that yes, it does run very slightly hotter in this car.
The dyno results, where I waited with baited breath to see how many horses I'd attracted to my stagecoach, were as follows:
A small loss on the first run then. This doesn't worry me in the slightest, as a loss of 0.6bhp is (other than something you really wouldn't notice on the move) almost insignificant, being that you could easily lose or gain double that figure on the next couple of runs. For example, three runs later with the normal coolant:
I've gained 0.7bhp, just like that! So any movement within around 1-1.5bhp could easily be attested to moving parts on the car/friction, the dyno, the tyres - all sorts. The main reason a rolling road dyno can never be as accurate as an engine dyno is because there are too many variables inbetween what you want (the power of the engine) and where you want it (on the fking computer screen, please). For these reasons, we can't be 100% sure whether the Evans lost or gained anything, but we can fairly certain that any gains or losses are minimal. For the record, I actually performed 5 runs with and without the waterless coolant, and across the board the Evans averaged 0.7bhp less than the regular coolant. I'd link the spreadsheet I made, but it's on my other Google Drive account, and I've forgotten the password to this one, so don't want to log out!
Conclusion regarding power and increased temps: Bang goes the theory! On this car at least, there are no huge jumps in temperature, no big losses in power and no changes to the AFR (my graph can't plot it unfortunately). It didn't run dangerously lean due to seriously increased temps.
Benefits? The hottest I've had an engine with installed was 140degrees C (due to a fault with the engine). It melted some stuff, which in turn caused the coolant to be ditched all over the floor (so beware if you run a VW expansion tank - they melt pretty easily), but this would have happened with water too, only with more blown hoses or radiators. Pricey mess, mind.
Other benefits? Well, the thing about much lower pressure in the cooling system? All true. The hoses don't stiffen up anywhere near as much with the Evans coolant in as with water. A number of my cars are all worthless old crocks with very hard to find parts, I'm keen to preserve as many of the original coolant fittings and hoses as possible. Anything that doesn't pressurise old rubber, or corrode aluminium behind plastic water jackets gets my attention. Proof that it really doesn't pressurise as much? This vid was taken after I'd finished doing all the testing above:
https://youtu.be/z9MW9FxamUE
Other benefits? As we've all heard, it boils much higher. This glazes most people over, because everybody's so ingrained with the POV that boiling point is 100degrees (108degrees.....ish, if you pressurise it). The fact is, the car should still behave as it did before, and normal operating temperature should still be around the same point it was before. This is because the engine is designed to operate at that temperature. If you filled the cooling system with Lucozade it'd run about the same temps (for a while, anyway). The advantage in having a coolant that can operate higher is that the coolant isn't on the edge of its operating window while the engine sits comfortably in the middle of its own. If you think about it, it seems daft that the point you want the engine to run at for efficient use, is very close to the point the stuff you've filled it with is about to lose its st, hence why it has to be pressurised. All using waterless is doing in regards to temps is shifting the operating window. Now, if the engine starts to run too hot, it's not the coolant blowing a hose and running dry that you're thinking about. It's more likely a piece of plastic somewhere is going to melt. Sure, the outcome might be the same, but you'll probably have longer to notice the issue and avoid it, and all the while your cylinder jackets are still immersed in a liquid, not something that a Schools Class Locomotive runs on.
Is it flammable? I just took this video (really, about 5 mins ago):
https://youtu.be/TGXnlj9nq_A
No. Not with a flame anyway. Maybe if you compress it then it might become more volatile. Pretty sure there's something else being pumped around the engine bay (at a much higher pressure) which is very flammable to the naked flame, can't think what it is.
(Honest) Drawbacks That I can see, or state as a user of the product who has converted their car from one to the other? It's pricey. Sure, if you weigh it up then antifreeze is around £25 per 5L (of decent stuff), and that'll make around 10L of coolant - more than enough for most regular cars. So yes, Evans should pay off eventually to someone who changes their antifreeze at the correct intervals (5 yrs for most OAT antifreezes), but it would take a while to do so, so you shouldn't be doing this as a value for money exercise, because it isn't. And even a car with a modest 5L cooling system is going to cost you around £90-£100 in coolant to convert. That's a tough price to swallow! That's a pair of new tyres, or two full tanks of fuel in my AX GT, and it's not like it's going to drive any faster, or sound any nicer, or be any more fun to drive with waterless coolant fitted. In fact, most of the benefits are totally hidden. It's a tough sell to people (possibly why Evans use pretty girls in lycra and Ed China/Jay Leno to push it).
Oh, it's messy. Really messy. Do a conversion on your driveway at your peril. You really need compressed air to blow most of the old water old, and something very large to catch all the Prep Fluid that has to go in and come out again into, and that's the really messy bit. Our test Saxo has a drain plug in the radiator, so it was an easy and fairly clean affair, but my TVR S1 (2.8 Ford Cologne lump, like the chaps Capri 280 above) is an absolute nightmare to drain, as the thermostat blocks the bottom hose's feed of coolant from the block off. You have to blow it out of the heater spigot! No more difficult with waterless obviously, but it's harder to mop it up.
Another issue is the daftest one (for me)....the worry. I'm pretty tight-fisted (comes as a result of living life with very little money) and so I now have a constant worry I'm going to lose all the coolant somehow. Yup, for some reason I now worry that some small form of creature is more likely to crawl into my engine bay and nipple at me rubber than they would have done before, spilling all my nice expensive fluid everywhere. Logical? No, but when you've spent money on something like that, you panic more. I'm also more likely to try and avoid any maintenance or repairs involving cooling systems; One of my cars needs the heater matrix swapping out. Fine, whack a bucket under it, drain coolant, remove dash and change etc etc. No, don't wanna do that because I might spill some of the coolant, and it's messy/expensive. So that job now becomes more of a project on the back burner! Stupid really.
Other cars I've converted of my own, and my observations:
As well as the above, I also own, and have converted two other cars:
Car 2 - 2800cc all iron Ford OHV V6 - converted around April '15 A TVR S1 I own, converted to Classic Cool 180 prior to its return to the road in April 2015. The weekend following the MoT, I took the car to Guernsey. We were running late for the ferry from Poole, and there was awful traffic on an unusually hot spring morning. I knew from past experience when it used to run normal coolant that this would be touch and go, as it never used to like sitting in traffic for more than 10mins at temps of 20degrees C or higher. No big deal, as you could always stop and let it cool, but we were late for the ferry. I explained to my panicking wife that we have trick coolant fitted, and that we should be fine. The temperature hit 115degrees on the gauge (before the gauge fogged up completely) and I never stopped, nor turned the engine off. Heater blower doesn't do anything, so pointless employing it to help. We made the ferry with 5mins to spare. It then continued to drive around fine, including being spanked around Millbrook Proving Grounds. The only issue I've had is that the temps climb quite quickly once the speeds get near 90mph with heavier throttle loadings. It's possible to hit 100degrees while flat out, and we did indeed do this on the High Speed Bowl (we got to 100degrees before we got to 100mph
) Whether this is a combination of the very slightly less efficient coolant coupled with TVR-esque levels of engineering regarding cooling systems or not, I can't say. It doesn't affect the car or the way it drives, it's just that you happen to be looking at the gauges and notice things. I've never driven around Millbrook with normal coolant, so can't compare - it may well have been the same story!
Car 3 - 1900cc all alloy DOHC - most recent conversion of all, probably about two months ago I converted this car purely as an upgrade, which of all the cars I own is the only one I wasn't looking to test something out on. At the same time I renewed the thermostat, and swapped all the old coolant hoses for silicone. This car gets intermittent use, and is generally over-driven & under-maintained (don't worry, I'm not selling it!) The benefits of having a fit and forget cooling system were high! Since the conversion, the car runs no hotter or cooling, both in terms of coolant and oil temp. I've dyno'd the car since, though not in a test scenario as per Car 1, and the power figures are inline with what it usually kicks out. Nothing to really report, other than during the conversion I ran the engine up on the prep fluid as you're supposed to, and then took a phone call. It dawned on me that I hadn't heard the cooling fan cut in after a while, so went to investigate, and found the car at 120degrees, with an inop cooling fan (an electrical issue which also claimed the rev counter, oil level gauge and oil pressure gauge). I switched, let it cool, drained the prep and installed the Evans coolant, and continued with my day - no issues. Those cars have a red warning lamp on the temp gauge, nicknamed the 'Red Lamp Of Death' on the owners forums. Red lamp usually means dead engine, yet this one is fine. I then drove the car on a 350mile round trip, including getting stuck in traffic on the M25, with no cooling fan. Heater blower was enough to hold it at 110degrees, and no issues since. Heater matrix started leaking too, just before the journey. Can't see how it's Evans coolant related, though can't rule anything out obviously, as I haven't looked at it yet. It is 25 yrs old though!
My summary:
If you don't like change, fine. If you can't give things the time of day because they don't fit into your thought process, or you can't figure out how they work, fine. If you've used the product, and had lots of issues (yet had none on regular coolant), fine. Basically, everyone's entitled to their opinion.
However, if your opinion is centred around things you've read on the internet, then consider they might be flawed opinions, or chinese whispers. I can't answer those who've claimed it's more acidic, and that it'll ruin your block and eat bunny rabbits etc, as I haven't run it long enough. To date, however, I would contest most of the issues I've read in this thread to be slightly, or entirely fictional. I'm not laying blame of the feet of the authors, just suggesting that sometimes, things actually do work.
Believe me, the day I get a serious problem, I'll bounce straight back in here and tell everybody how st the stuff is, but right now, the only thing I can say for sure it's making false claims over are power increases, and that's only with the cars I've tested. It's possible some cars might gain power, though I'd have to see it to believe it. I personally believe they'd run with a bit more credibility if they dropped the whole 'Increases Power' bks. That's the kind of tagline you see on fuel magnets, spark plugs with multiple electrodes and 'Power Boost Valves' (my personal favourite).
Anyway, like I said happy to answer any questions. I'm not representing them, I don't work for them and truth be told it makes no difference to my business whether I sell the stuff or not. I'm only interested in fair trials by internet forum and having time for genuine products. As it stands, I honestly believe this stuff is the real deal. I'm sure it's probably a by-product of making shampoo or something, and costs 31p per litre to product, but whatever - other than the power thing, it's done everything it said it would do, and the stuff that went in car one is as clean as the day it went in.
Anyway, I'll get my flame-proof jacket ready
I run Evans Waterless Coolants in three of my cars, currently. I plan to convert another two of them. Officially, my company is an agent for E.W.C (so if you have any genuine questions I'm happy to give a no-bulls
t honest response to them) though we don't sell much of it as the margins needed aren't there in order to compete with the various sellers on eBay offering it at 1% profit! (Hint, if you want the stuff, get it on eBay!) In any case, we're a vehicle workshop, not a retailer of products. I've also been a member of PH longer than I've been a company director (same thing, innit?)My findings are as follows:
Car 1 - 1600cc DOHC, iron block/alloy head - been running it since Feb '15. This was the first car I converted
Only converted the car as I know it inside out, and knew that I'd spot any potential issues arising as a result of the conversion pretty quickly. When Evans approached my business to become an agent for the TVR side of things, I was initially hesitant (as any small business would be if someone is trying to sell them something), so took on a small order and decided to convert this car as a test bed. I felt I needed to experience the product myself before trying to convince people to buy it (as it happens, I don't really try to convince people at all, I just give them the option!) Prior to converting the car to waterless coolant, this car had been running on a 50/50 mix of water and ethylene glycol antifreeze (red). Previously no overheating problems, and mechanically in good health.
I was keen to test the claimed benefits of Evans coolant, so much so that I conducted dyno sessions immediately prior to, and after the conversion. Having rolling roaded many cars over the years, and been geekishly anal about figures and power curves, and how the book specifications differ to my figures, my opinion was that the claim that the coolant would increase power was likely to be false (after all, 99RON hasn't shown any increases in power on road cars during tests I've done, so why would coolant?!) I was also keen to see how the engine would behave with the waterless coolant fitted. Again, I knew the car well and knew I could 'abuse' it on the dyno without risk of breaking it (it's a ridiculously tough little bugger)
The first thing I did was dyno the car, and take a temperature reading:
This reading was taken immediately after the run had finished. It might look a bit low, but don't forget when you're pressing on down the road, your car will likely run cooler than in normal town driving, or sitting in traffic (apologies if there are any egg-sucking vibes being felt out there). Had I left it sitting there for 10mins after the run (carried out with a large fan to replicate airflow through the rad) it would have climbed to the 92degrees required to kick the first stage cooling fan in.
The dyno results of the first dyno run:
I then repeated the test after I'd converted the car (this car is running the PowerCool 180 product, but they're all pretty similar with minor differences separating them). Water content measured 1.19% (very hard to remove 100% of the water from a system you've just drained) but this is within the 3% operating window of the coolant (straying above the 3% basically reduces the efficiency of the conversion and lowers the boiling point/increases pressure at N.O.T)
The temperature result taken from the same point on the cooling system, and at the same interval was as follows:
The result being very slightly hotter than the run with regular coolant. This is to be expected, as water is about as good a thermal conductor as you can get. The waterless coolant is about 68-70% as effective as water. I see many posts from people saying "OMFG your engine will run 30% hotter!" and all that jazz. I'm not sure where this theory comes from, and I'm sure it can't be as simple as somebody subtracting 70% from 100 and assuming that's how it works!
My conclusion (supported by what I'd later learn by using the car) is that yes, it does run very slightly hotter in this car.The dyno results, where I waited with baited breath to see how many horses I'd attracted to my stagecoach, were as follows:
A small loss on the first run then. This doesn't worry me in the slightest, as a loss of 0.6bhp is (other than something you really wouldn't notice on the move) almost insignificant, being that you could easily lose or gain double that figure on the next couple of runs. For example, three runs later with the normal coolant:
I've gained 0.7bhp, just like that! So any movement within around 1-1.5bhp could easily be attested to moving parts on the car/friction, the dyno, the tyres - all sorts. The main reason a rolling road dyno can never be as accurate as an engine dyno is because there are too many variables inbetween what you want (the power of the engine) and where you want it (on the f
king computer screen, please). For these reasons, we can't be 100% sure whether the Evans lost or gained anything, but we can fairly certain that any gains or losses are minimal. For the record, I actually performed 5 runs with and without the waterless coolant, and across the board the Evans averaged 0.7bhp less than the regular coolant. I'd link the spreadsheet I made, but it's on my other Google Drive account, and I've forgotten the password to this one, so don't want to log out!Conclusion regarding power and increased temps: Bang goes the theory! On this car at least, there are no huge jumps in temperature, no big losses in power and no changes to the AFR (my graph can't plot it unfortunately). It didn't run dangerously lean due to seriously increased temps.
Benefits? The hottest I've had an engine with installed was 140degrees C (due to a fault with the engine). It melted some stuff, which in turn caused the coolant to be ditched all over the floor (so beware if you run a VW expansion tank - they melt pretty easily), but this would have happened with water too, only with more blown hoses or radiators. Pricey mess, mind.
Other benefits? Well, the thing about much lower pressure in the cooling system? All true. The hoses don't stiffen up anywhere near as much with the Evans coolant in as with water. A number of my cars are all worthless old crocks with very hard to find parts, I'm keen to preserve as many of the original coolant fittings and hoses as possible. Anything that doesn't pressurise old rubber, or corrode aluminium behind plastic water jackets gets my attention. Proof that it really doesn't pressurise as much? This vid was taken after I'd finished doing all the testing above:
https://youtu.be/z9MW9FxamUE
Other benefits? As we've all heard, it boils much higher. This glazes most people over, because everybody's so ingrained with the POV that boiling point is 100degrees (108degrees.....ish, if you pressurise it). The fact is, the car should still behave as it did before, and normal operating temperature should still be around the same point it was before. This is because the engine is designed to operate at that temperature. If you filled the cooling system with Lucozade it'd run about the same temps (for a while, anyway). The advantage in having a coolant that can operate higher is that the coolant isn't on the edge of its operating window while the engine sits comfortably in the middle of its own. If you think about it, it seems daft that the point you want the engine to run at for efficient use, is very close to the point the stuff you've filled it with is about to lose its s
t, hence why it has to be pressurised. All using waterless is doing in regards to temps is shifting the operating window. Now, if the engine starts to run too hot, it's not the coolant blowing a hose and running dry that you're thinking about. It's more likely a piece of plastic somewhere is going to melt. Sure, the outcome might be the same, but you'll probably have longer to notice the issue and avoid it, and all the while your cylinder jackets are still immersed in a liquid, not something that a Schools Class Locomotive runs on.Is it flammable? I just took this video (really, about 5 mins ago):
https://youtu.be/TGXnlj9nq_A
No. Not with a flame anyway. Maybe if you compress it then it might become more volatile. Pretty sure there's something else being pumped around the engine bay (at a much higher pressure) which is very flammable to the naked flame, can't think what it is.
(Honest) Drawbacks That I can see, or state as a user of the product who has converted their car from one to the other? It's pricey. Sure, if you weigh it up then antifreeze is around £25 per 5L (of decent stuff), and that'll make around 10L of coolant - more than enough for most regular cars. So yes, Evans should pay off eventually to someone who changes their antifreeze at the correct intervals (5 yrs for most OAT antifreezes), but it would take a while to do so, so you shouldn't be doing this as a value for money exercise, because it isn't. And even a car with a modest 5L cooling system is going to cost you around £90-£100 in coolant to convert. That's a tough price to swallow! That's a pair of new tyres, or two full tanks of fuel in my AX GT, and it's not like it's going to drive any faster, or sound any nicer, or be any more fun to drive with waterless coolant fitted. In fact, most of the benefits are totally hidden. It's a tough sell to people (possibly why Evans use pretty girls in lycra and Ed China/Jay Leno to push it).
Oh, it's messy. Really messy. Do a conversion on your driveway at your peril. You really need compressed air to blow most of the old water old, and something very large to catch all the Prep Fluid that has to go in and come out again into, and that's the really messy bit. Our test Saxo has a drain plug in the radiator, so it was an easy and fairly clean affair, but my TVR S1 (2.8 Ford Cologne lump, like the chaps Capri 280 above) is an absolute nightmare to drain, as the thermostat blocks the bottom hose's feed of coolant from the block off. You have to blow it out of the heater spigot! No more difficult with waterless obviously, but it's harder to mop it up.
Another issue is the daftest one (for me)....the worry. I'm pretty tight-fisted (comes as a result of living life with very little money) and so I now have a constant worry I'm going to lose all the coolant somehow. Yup, for some reason I now worry that some small form of creature is more likely to crawl into my engine bay and nipple at me rubber than they would have done before, spilling all my nice expensive fluid everywhere. Logical? No, but when you've spent money on something like that, you panic more. I'm also more likely to try and avoid any maintenance or repairs involving cooling systems; One of my cars needs the heater matrix swapping out. Fine, whack a bucket under it, drain coolant, remove dash and change etc etc. No, don't wanna do that because I might spill some of the coolant, and it's messy/expensive. So that job now becomes more of a project on the back burner! Stupid really.
Other cars I've converted of my own, and my observations:
As well as the above, I also own, and have converted two other cars:
Car 2 - 2800cc all iron Ford OHV V6 - converted around April '15 A TVR S1 I own, converted to Classic Cool 180 prior to its return to the road in April 2015. The weekend following the MoT, I took the car to Guernsey. We were running late for the ferry from Poole, and there was awful traffic on an unusually hot spring morning. I knew from past experience when it used to run normal coolant that this would be touch and go, as it never used to like sitting in traffic for more than 10mins at temps of 20degrees C or higher. No big deal, as you could always stop and let it cool, but we were late for the ferry. I explained to my panicking wife that we have trick coolant fitted, and that we should be fine. The temperature hit 115degrees on the gauge (before the gauge fogged up completely) and I never stopped, nor turned the engine off. Heater blower doesn't do anything, so pointless employing it to help. We made the ferry with 5mins to spare. It then continued to drive around fine, including being spanked around Millbrook Proving Grounds. The only issue I've had is that the temps climb quite quickly once the speeds get near 90mph with heavier throttle loadings. It's possible to hit 100degrees while flat out, and we did indeed do this on the High Speed Bowl (we got to 100degrees before we got to 100mph
) Whether this is a combination of the very slightly less efficient coolant coupled with TVR-esque levels of engineering regarding cooling systems or not, I can't say. It doesn't affect the car or the way it drives, it's just that you happen to be looking at the gauges and notice things. I've never driven around Millbrook with normal coolant, so can't compare - it may well have been the same story!Car 3 - 1900cc all alloy DOHC - most recent conversion of all, probably about two months ago I converted this car purely as an upgrade, which of all the cars I own is the only one I wasn't looking to test something out on. At the same time I renewed the thermostat, and swapped all the old coolant hoses for silicone. This car gets intermittent use, and is generally over-driven & under-maintained (don't worry, I'm not selling it!) The benefits of having a fit and forget cooling system were high! Since the conversion, the car runs no hotter or cooling, both in terms of coolant and oil temp. I've dyno'd the car since, though not in a test scenario as per Car 1, and the power figures are inline with what it usually kicks out. Nothing to really report, other than during the conversion I ran the engine up on the prep fluid as you're supposed to, and then took a phone call. It dawned on me that I hadn't heard the cooling fan cut in after a while, so went to investigate, and found the car at 120degrees, with an inop cooling fan (an electrical issue which also claimed the rev counter, oil level gauge and oil pressure gauge). I switched, let it cool, drained the prep and installed the Evans coolant, and continued with my day - no issues. Those cars have a red warning lamp on the temp gauge, nicknamed the 'Red Lamp Of Death' on the owners forums. Red lamp usually means dead engine, yet this one is fine. I then drove the car on a 350mile round trip, including getting stuck in traffic on the M25, with no cooling fan. Heater blower was enough to hold it at 110degrees, and no issues since. Heater matrix started leaking too, just before the journey. Can't see how it's Evans coolant related, though can't rule anything out obviously, as I haven't looked at it yet. It is 25 yrs old though!
My summary:
If you don't like change, fine. If you can't give things the time of day because they don't fit into your thought process, or you can't figure out how they work, fine. If you've used the product, and had lots of issues (yet had none on regular coolant), fine. Basically, everyone's entitled to their opinion.
However, if your opinion is centred around things you've read on the internet, then consider they might be flawed opinions, or chinese whispers. I can't answer those who've claimed it's more acidic, and that it'll ruin your block and eat bunny rabbits etc, as I haven't run it long enough. To date, however, I would contest most of the issues I've read in this thread to be slightly, or entirely fictional. I'm not laying blame of the feet of the authors, just suggesting that sometimes, things actually do work.
Believe me, the day I get a serious problem, I'll bounce straight back in here and tell everybody how s
t the stuff is, but right now, the only thing I can say for sure it's making false claims over are power increases, and that's only with the cars I've tested. It's possible some cars might gain power, though I'd have to see it to believe it. I personally believe they'd run with a bit more credibility if they dropped the whole 'Increases Power' bks. That's the kind of tagline you see on fuel magnets, spark plugs with multiple electrodes and 'Power Boost Valves' (my personal favourite).Anyway, like I said happy to answer any questions. I'm not representing them, I don't work for them and truth be told it makes no difference to my business whether I sell the stuff or not. I'm only interested in fair trials by internet forum and having time for genuine products. As it stands, I honestly believe this stuff is the real deal. I'm sure it's probably a by-product of making shampoo or something, and costs 31p per litre to product, but whatever - other than the power thing, it's done everything it said it would do, and the stuff that went in car one is as clean as the day it went in.
Anyway, I'll get my flame-proof jacket ready
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