Bonhams in the do-do?
Discussion
pacoryan said:
Breadvan72 said:
.... In my experience they are often, despite their good tailoring and apparently clean fingernails, those who nowadays would not be allowed to work in the City because of the regulatory regime, and that is saying something. Pecunia non olet*, it is said; only sometimes, it does.
.
Mild personal amusement at this having gone from employment at Brooks (Bonham's previous incarnation) to regulated financial services. I face greater wariness from the public in my current guise, but my experience would certainly accord with your sentiments!.
The auction world is distinctly er... characterful, that's for sure, whether at the £50 banger end or the sort of sale where £50 only gets you the catalogue. Still amazes me, one wouldn't trade a few £100k of bricks and mortar the way cars of the same value are punted around.
If we look at the more prestigious auction houses, they are home to several well known City 'gents' who operated in the retail side of physical futures and forex prior to them becoming regulated markets.
everyeggabird said:
£11m and they didn't HPI it.
Oh, we all know the car was a write off, the records speak of "Jaguar could only shovel up the bits and go home". It's just a question of what happened after the factory dismantled the car. The last record in the factory's paperwork says the car was towed home on a trailer and stripped down on the 7 & 8 of May 1956. Andrew Whyte's book talks about the need for a compressive rebuild of XKD603 ready for the race at Riems and that "with odd bits from XKD604 coming in very handy". So it's anyones guess what HPI would make of it.
And as Greg says, he can't have a heritage certificate for the car since that is based on the sales records of cars leaving the factory and the factory records say "DISMANTLED" and not SOLD. Since there is no record of 604 having been sold, it would be questionable who it could be owned by. Unless there was proof that the factory sold all the relevant parts to EE it could potentially be the case that Jaguar could lay claim to the car since they never claim to have sold it to anyone in the first place.
DonkeyApple said:
pacoryan said:
Breadvan72 said:
.... In my experience they are often, despite their good tailoring and apparently clean fingernails, those who nowadays would not be allowed to work in the City because of the regulatory regime, and that is saying something. Pecunia non olet*, it is said; only sometimes, it does.
.
Mild personal amusement at this having gone from employment at Brooks (Bonham's previous incarnation) to regulated financial services. I face greater wariness from the public in my current guise, but my experience would certainly accord with your sentiments!.
The auction world is distinctly er... characterful, that's for sure, whether at the £50 banger end or the sort of sale where £50 only gets you the catalogue. Still amazes me, one wouldn't trade a few £100k of bricks and mortar the way cars of the same value are punted around.
If we look at the more prestigious auction houses, they are home to several well known City 'gents' who operated in the retail side of physical futures and forex prior to them becoming regulated markets.
Breadvan72 said:
I just spent a couple of days cross examining some hedge fund types, including the fund's Head Of Compliance, about their interactions with the Securities and Exchange Commission. I would use the word cowboys, but that would be unfair to honest, hard working cattle herders.
If they are at proper houses then at least they are educated and qualified. The growth in 'family wealth funds' highlights where the real Cowboys on that side of the industry have gone. Imagine the ones who have had elocution lessons, double barrelled their name and cut their teeth selling unregulated financial instruments to cold call retail lists. Those are the sorts of chaps who end up in auction houses. Could this be just a glitch in the system, or has sanity prevailed? Rather suddenly, the RM Sothebys Arizona sale has no mention at all of XKD 604 as being for sale. Go here:-
https://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient...
and it is proudly announced. Click on the car, and there is no further mention - effaced from the sale.
Perhaps I should be looking elsewhere for a "replica" site? Any further comment Greg? You and I have disputed this car for seven years, yet if it has suddenly been pulled by the auction house I would now ask you to explain why. Or are you suddenly becoming a bit shy?
Anyway, what's $5 million between friends?
https://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient...
and it is proudly announced. Click on the car, and there is no further mention - effaced from the sale.
Perhaps I should be looking elsewhere for a "replica" site? Any further comment Greg? You and I have disputed this car for seven years, yet if it has suddenly been pulled by the auction house I would now ask you to explain why. Or are you suddenly becoming a bit shy?
Anyway, what's $5 million between friends?
What a sad tale! Is there any actual evidence that this car is anything more that just a collection of correct period 'works' components attached to a later Lynx tub? I know that the owner has been on here rubbishing any claims that challenge the authenticity of the car, but his claims of provenance seam to relate to individual accounts of events rather that documented evidence.
Personally, the 'scientific' evidence about the components looks to me like 'smoke & mirrors' as even if the components are in fact original 'works' parts, there would have been plenty of 'works' spares on the shelves within the works team and there wouldn't be anything to relate (for example) a steering wheel, a set of brakes, or electrical components to any specific chassis number.
If Jaguar 'dismantled' XKD604 as their record state, was it just the damaged tub which was sold to EE? In which case there is no provenance linking any individual components with the damaged tub that went north of the boarder. Can anybody comment on why Ecurie Ecosse would actually want a damaged 'D' Type tub when they could have bought an undamaged 'customer' tub direct from Jaguar, or would they have just wanted to see (copy) the experimental De-Dion rear sub-frame?
The car looks stunning and would be highly desirable in it's own right, but there looks to be too many questions over it's provenance to share the value of the other multi-million pound D Types.
Can XKD604 ever actually exist if the factory records state that it was 'dismantled'?
Personally, the 'scientific' evidence about the components looks to me like 'smoke & mirrors' as even if the components are in fact original 'works' parts, there would have been plenty of 'works' spares on the shelves within the works team and there wouldn't be anything to relate (for example) a steering wheel, a set of brakes, or electrical components to any specific chassis number.
If Jaguar 'dismantled' XKD604 as their record state, was it just the damaged tub which was sold to EE? In which case there is no provenance linking any individual components with the damaged tub that went north of the boarder. Can anybody comment on why Ecurie Ecosse would actually want a damaged 'D' Type tub when they could have bought an undamaged 'customer' tub direct from Jaguar, or would they have just wanted to see (copy) the experimental De-Dion rear sub-frame?
The car looks stunning and would be highly desirable in it's own right, but there looks to be too many questions over it's provenance to share the value of the other multi-million pound D Types.
Can XKD604 ever actually exist if the factory records state that it was 'dismantled'?
Sadly, the car has been withdrawn from the auction but is still for sale with RM but for sale by private treaty. He has declared that we are all "w***ers" who no nothing, us including Terry McGrath, Paul Skilleter, Les Hughes and Philip Porter.
Let us make this clear; the car is more D-type than replica since a lot of the parts are from original D-types. Even the chassis - or part of it - is original from the factory. It is rumoured but as yet unproven that the chassis is actually three chassis welded up, but at least one part being of factory origin. Except that it now has 604 stamped on it. XKD 505 is a similar case in point except that the chassis of 505 was found in 504 in 1982 at Lynx, was removed and a new car built around it. 505 was used as a factory mule and dismantled in 1959. The owner has never disputed the facts, but at least it has a part of 505 in it. In this case it is a collection of parts built up into an RS Panels body made for Lynx and then a carefully woven history has been attributed that it is actually 606. It is an extremely well built replica with many real parts in it, but it is NOT the car that left the factory, nor any part of it.
A phone call intimated that Jaguar would refuse to accredit the car if asked, and hopefully Jaguar will be starting their own classiche programme like Ferrari. That'll put the cat amongst the pigeons!
Let us make this clear; the car is more D-type than replica since a lot of the parts are from original D-types. Even the chassis - or part of it - is original from the factory. It is rumoured but as yet unproven that the chassis is actually three chassis welded up, but at least one part being of factory origin. Except that it now has 604 stamped on it. XKD 505 is a similar case in point except that the chassis of 505 was found in 504 in 1982 at Lynx, was removed and a new car built around it. 505 was used as a factory mule and dismantled in 1959. The owner has never disputed the facts, but at least it has a part of 505 in it. In this case it is a collection of parts built up into an RS Panels body made for Lynx and then a carefully woven history has been attributed that it is actually 606. It is an extremely well built replica with many real parts in it, but it is NOT the car that left the factory, nor any part of it.
A phone call intimated that Jaguar would refuse to accredit the car if asked, and hopefully Jaguar will be starting their own classiche programme like Ferrari. That'll put the cat amongst the pigeons!
lowdrag said:
...Let us make this clear; the car is more D-type than replica since a lot of the parts are from original D-types. Even the chassis - or part of it - is original from the factory. It is rumoured but as yet unproven that the chassis is actually three chassis welded up, but at least one part being of factory origin. Except that it now has 604 stamped on it. ....
So as I read it, the car being offered for sale is mostly original Jaguar D Type, but that none of it can actually be attributed to XKD604 with any certainty. So it's a very nice 'bitsa' car in the same way that quite a few old cars (especially rally cars) have been built and re-built many times over the years. The problem being with this car is that there is no continuous history to support the claims of it being XKD604."Continuous history" is the key phrase here. Jaguar records show it as being cut into pieces in May 1956. XKD 505 is shown as being dismantled for spares in 1959.
604 did not exist between May 1956 and 1982. Suddenly, Jim Tester had found the chassis and parts in the Ecurie Ecosse stores bin; except that they (EE) went bust six years earlier and nothing was left and the property resold or re-let - I forget which. Then the current owner changed his mind and the car - or parts - had been sold to a 17-yr old apprentice at Jaguar. Hmm, sorry, but even then a house in Coventry was worth not much, but far too much for an apprentice, and far less than a D-type Jaguar. Average property prices have risen enormously; my father sold a 4 bed house with grounds on the south coast for £2,500 in 1955 for example. A D-type cost over £5,000 when new. Explain to me how a young apprentice could have bought even the remains of the car? In 1955 Jaguar price lists show £26 for a competition gearbox for a Mk 1 and £15 for shock absorbers. An apprentice in the day was on £3 a week.
So on we go. I will continue to post even though it appears that the owner has called us "wan**rs who know nothing. This car is, to all intents and purposes, a fake.
604 did not exist between May 1956 and 1982. Suddenly, Jim Tester had found the chassis and parts in the Ecurie Ecosse stores bin; except that they (EE) went bust six years earlier and nothing was left and the property resold or re-let - I forget which. Then the current owner changed his mind and the car - or parts - had been sold to a 17-yr old apprentice at Jaguar. Hmm, sorry, but even then a house in Coventry was worth not much, but far too much for an apprentice, and far less than a D-type Jaguar. Average property prices have risen enormously; my father sold a 4 bed house with grounds on the south coast for £2,500 in 1955 for example. A D-type cost over £5,000 when new. Explain to me how a young apprentice could have bought even the remains of the car? In 1955 Jaguar price lists show £26 for a competition gearbox for a Mk 1 and £15 for shock absorbers. An apprentice in the day was on £3 a week.
So on we go. I will continue to post even though it appears that the owner has called us "wan**rs who know nothing. This car is, to all intents and purposes, a fake.
Edited by lowdrag on Friday 4th August 16:42
lowdrag said:
"Continuous history" is the key phrase here. Jaguar records show it as being cut into pieces in May 1956. XKD 505 is shown as being dismantled for spares in 1959.
606 did not exist between May 1956 and 1982. Suddenly, Jim Tester had found the chassis and parts in the Ecurie Ecosse stores bin; except that they (EE) went bust six years earlier and nothing was left and the property resold or re-let - I forget which. Then the current owner changed his mind and the car - or parts - had been sold to a 17-yr old apprentice at Jaguar. Hmm, sorry, but even then a house in Coventry was worth not much, but far too much for an apprentice, and far less than a D-type Jaguar. Average property prices have risen enormously; my father sold a 4 bed house with grounds on the south coast for £2,500 in 1955 for example. A D-type cost over £5,000 when new. Explain to me how a young apprentice could have bought even the remains of the car? In 1955 Jaguar price lists show £26 for a competition gearbox for a Mk 1 and £15 for shock absorbers. An apprentice in the day was on £3 a week.
So on we go. I will continue to post even though it appears that the owner has called us "wan**rs who know nothing. This car is, to all intents and purposes, a fake.
Oh oh. I know. Like the johny cash song, the apprentice built a d type up from all orginal bits. So it came from the factory as a bitsa, you see. Provenance assued. Unique among jaguars, the only car to have done so. Auction listing changing to include note about restoration including tyres with air imported from castle bromwi..er... spek..er coventry. Genuine, gvnr. Pssssst, wanna buy a watch??606 did not exist between May 1956 and 1982. Suddenly, Jim Tester had found the chassis and parts in the Ecurie Ecosse stores bin; except that they (EE) went bust six years earlier and nothing was left and the property resold or re-let - I forget which. Then the current owner changed his mind and the car - or parts - had been sold to a 17-yr old apprentice at Jaguar. Hmm, sorry, but even then a house in Coventry was worth not much, but far too much for an apprentice, and far less than a D-type Jaguar. Average property prices have risen enormously; my father sold a 4 bed house with grounds on the south coast for £2,500 in 1955 for example. A D-type cost over £5,000 when new. Explain to me how a young apprentice could have bought even the remains of the car? In 1955 Jaguar price lists show £26 for a competition gearbox for a Mk 1 and £15 for shock absorbers. An apprentice in the day was on £3 a week.
So on we go. I will continue to post even though it appears that the owner has called us "wan**rs who know nothing. This car is, to all intents and purposes, a fake.
DonkeyApple said:
Once they had finished racing they could be bought for about £2k. Still a lot of money.
As you say, a lot of money. In 1963 my salary as a trainee actuary at Sun Life was £300 p.a. plus a wonderful London weighting of £30. My room in a boarding house with meals was £5 per week in Brixton. Of course, I drove to work in Cheapside in my Rolls and kept the D-type for weekends.lowdrag said:
DonkeyApple said:
Once they had finished racing they could be bought for about £2k. Still a lot of money.
As you say, a lot of money. In 1963 my salary as a trainee actuary at Sun Life was £300 p.a. plus a wonderful London weighting of £30. My room in a boarding house with meals was £5 per week in Brixton. Of course, I drove to work in Cheapside in my Rolls and kept the D-type for weekends.I have interesting but sadly hazy memories of the 80s classic car boom when a large number of my father's friends were hired regularly as witnesses to try and prove/disprove provenance as they had driven the cars in their heyday. They used to sit at our dining table after a long lunch and laugh about how much so and so had paid for a car that everyone knew was a fake and talk about who was building them and all the made up tales etc.
I recall walking around the paddock at various St John Horsfall events with them saying 'kitcar' pretty much every second car.
But if you fabricate a history well enough, get the right people talking about it then all it takes is a short amount of time for it to will fully be adopted as provenance and become real. Even more so now as do many of the people who knew the truth have died.
Looks like this reached a conclusion,though there is not a huge amount of detail in the article...
http://www.thestar.com/business/2016/04/25/victori...
http://www.thestar.com/business/2016/04/25/victori...
While the affair was posted in another thread, it is nice to top and tail just in case you didn't see the it there. The D-type XKD 604 was withdrawn from sale in January and I have written confirmation that it is but "a wonderful evocation" of the original car. That is to say that just one part - the rear chassis - is original. The body is courtesy of RS Panels in the eighties and the rest is a Jaguar parts bin special. The car remains for sale through RM Sothebys "by private treaty". Despite the owner having apparently promised not to misrepresent the car in future, I shall still continue to follow the whereabouts. There's only four million dollars difference by the way.
lowdrag said:
While the affair was posted in another thread, it is nice to top and tail just in case you didn't see the it there. The D-type XKD 604 was withdrawn from sale in January and I have written confirmation that it is but "a wonderful evocation" of the original car. That is to say that just one part - the rear chassis - is original. The body is courtesy of RS Panels in the eighties and the rest is a Jaguar parts bin special. The car remains for sale through RM Sothebys "by private treaty". Despite the owner having apparently promised not to misrepresent the car in future, I shall still continue to follow the whereabouts. There's only four million dollars difference by the way.
Eventually the chap will work out that if he wants to sell the car he has to split that $4m with you. 
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