Bonhams in the do-do?
Discussion
Yes, it is sitting in a Jaguar specialist and it seems that certain people are once again having a try at getting the car accepted. There are number of us who know that this car is not the original and is but a collection of parts put together on one original piece, the rear chassis section. But even that has XKD 603 overstamped 604 on it. We are keeping a watchful eye, and it is rumoured that the car is being entered, or trying to be entered, in the Mille Miglia. I hope to see the car later this year, or if I have the time, even this month. I had someone here several weeks back who knew the then owner in California, where he took the car to the usual car 'n coffeee meetings. He swore that it was the Jaguar team car! It is ten years and counting that I have been fighting the good fight against this replica.
£157'000 for a proper Lynx D Type, now registered as 118XUG.
https://www.silverstoneauctions.com/1962-longnose-...
Looks like value!
https://www.silverstoneauctions.com/1962-longnose-...
Looks like value!
Greg Johnson sold the car eventually, but nowhere near the RM Sothebys blurb suggesting a minimum of $5 million. One thinks, or has heard, that it was less than a third of that. But the watch continues, and if the car surfaces as the "original" we have all we need now to knock it back down again.
As regards the Lynx mentioned above, the sale price was plus 5% VAT and the registration was retained. Today that D-type would be about £200,000.
As regards the Lynx mentioned above, the sale price was plus 5% VAT and the registration was retained. Today that D-type would be about £200,000.
It has suprised me over the years how many popular makes of classic sports cars attract all sorts of shenanigans to make them appear what they aren't and never were .
The problem then gets worse as those that have been conned won't admit it and then bury the evidence or manufacture false trails .
It's strange that many involve vehicles that have had several trips across large oceans and rebuilds for one reason or another .
The problem then gets worse as those that have been conned won't admit it and then bury the evidence or manufacture false trails .
It's strange that many involve vehicles that have had several trips across large oceans and rebuilds for one reason or another .
grumpy52 said:
It has suprised me over the years how many popular makes of classic sports cars attract all sorts of shenanigans to make them appear what they aren't and never were .
The problem then gets worse as those that have been conned won't admit it and then bury the evidence or manufacture false trails .
It's strange that many involve vehicles that have had several trips across large oceans and rebuilds for one reason or another .
Anything is possible if you are sufficiently convincing and prospective purchasers have the urge to acquire what they believe is something worth posessing.The problem then gets worse as those that have been conned won't admit it and then bury the evidence or manufacture false trails .
It's strange that many involve vehicles that have had several trips across large oceans and rebuilds for one reason or another .
A lot of people over here will have heard about what is probably the world's most well known scam but how many of them know the identity of the perpetrator?
Red Devil said:
Anything is possible if you are sufficiently convincing and prospective purchasers have the urge to acquire what they believe is something worth posessing.
A lot of people over here will have heard about what is probably the world's most well known scam but how many of them know the identity of the perpetrator?
Are you able to tell us more?A lot of people over here will have heard about what is probably the world's most well known scam but how many of them know the identity of the perpetrator?
Have just spotted this thread, very interesting! A few thoughts which will hopefully not wipe sheds off the value of anyone's investments, so no names or numbers!
Regarding the sometimes astronomical restoration costs it should be borne in mind that every such project is a voyage of discovery through an uncharted sea of financial reefs. For example, whilst at Prowess we worked on a Ferrari 550 Monza which had just come back from South America where it had been butchered to accommodate a Chevvy V8 when the too complicated original lump broke. The throttle pedal was missing but not the cross shaft to which it was splined for adjustment. We made a new pedal and then discovered that the spline was an involute spline, don't ask me why, but that meant sending both bits away to a specialist machine shop who charged us an absolute fortune to cut the splines, thousands in todays money. Repeat something similar for everything you touch, hopefully do-able in house but still taking time, old accidents and repairs that are now time expired and so on, then you start to see why these restorations cost what they do. We also did a rebuild of a D type from the two cars claiming the same chassis number, now what became of all the left over bits I have occasionally wondered, as I had left the company by then.
Mostly what one sees are the results of old and well meant maintenance, remember that in the day these cars were not anywhere near as valuable as they are today and the prime objective was to get the thing mended and ready for next weekend's racing. As values went up so did the temptation to be less honest. When I was at Lynx I occasionally saw D types where old work was now coming apart or, very occasionally, where some valuable original part had been robbed and replaced with an incorrect but available, or makeable, but cheap part. It was always our policy there to stop the instant anything untoward was uncovered and call the owner in to discuss the next step. I can only recall one where that resulted in litigation, in that case between the owner and the company to whom he had taken the car previously for restoration, having decided we were too expensive - which takes us back to para two about expensive restorations!
Today so much water has flowed under the bridge that the origin of much dubious work may never be known, Caveat Emptor - and as above, buy a Lynx Replica built by the original company at Hastings before 1991 ish!
Regarding the sometimes astronomical restoration costs it should be borne in mind that every such project is a voyage of discovery through an uncharted sea of financial reefs. For example, whilst at Prowess we worked on a Ferrari 550 Monza which had just come back from South America where it had been butchered to accommodate a Chevvy V8 when the too complicated original lump broke. The throttle pedal was missing but not the cross shaft to which it was splined for adjustment. We made a new pedal and then discovered that the spline was an involute spline, don't ask me why, but that meant sending both bits away to a specialist machine shop who charged us an absolute fortune to cut the splines, thousands in todays money. Repeat something similar for everything you touch, hopefully do-able in house but still taking time, old accidents and repairs that are now time expired and so on, then you start to see why these restorations cost what they do. We also did a rebuild of a D type from the two cars claiming the same chassis number, now what became of all the left over bits I have occasionally wondered, as I had left the company by then.
Mostly what one sees are the results of old and well meant maintenance, remember that in the day these cars were not anywhere near as valuable as they are today and the prime objective was to get the thing mended and ready for next weekend's racing. As values went up so did the temptation to be less honest. When I was at Lynx I occasionally saw D types where old work was now coming apart or, very occasionally, where some valuable original part had been robbed and replaced with an incorrect but available, or makeable, but cheap part. It was always our policy there to stop the instant anything untoward was uncovered and call the owner in to discuss the next step. I can only recall one where that resulted in litigation, in that case between the owner and the company to whom he had taken the car previously for restoration, having decided we were too expensive - which takes us back to para two about expensive restorations!
Today so much water has flowed under the bridge that the origin of much dubious work may never be known, Caveat Emptor - and as above, buy a Lynx Replica built by the original company at Hastings before 1991 ish!
I watched that rebuild, cars being A and B in big letters on the screen of each one. The real car is still in the correct hands and the now perfect FIA papered replica was sold as such. Not a prayer, given the amount of photos taken, that this car can be duplicated again. But the whole thing came about in the dim and distant past after accidents saw one car with some parts and another with the rest. Ah, those were simpler times, but the same shark-infested waters!
Mike-tf3n0 said:
Have just spotted this thread, very interesting! A few thoughts which will hopefully not wipe sheds off the value of anyone's investments, so no names or numbers!
Regarding the sometimes astronomical restoration costs it should be borne in mind that every such project is a voyage of discovery through an uncharted sea of financial reefs. For example, whilst at Prowess we worked on a Ferrari 550 Monza which had just come back from South America where it had been butchered to accommodate a Chevvy V8 when the too complicated original lump broke. The throttle pedal was missing but not the cross shaft to which it was splined for adjustment. We made a new pedal and then discovered that the spline was an involute spline, don't ask me why, but that meant sending both bits away to a specialist machine shop who charged us an absolute fortune to cut the splines, thousands in todays money. Repeat something similar for everything you touch, hopefully do-able in house but still taking time, old accidents and repairs that are now time expired and so on, then you start to see why these restorations cost what they do. We also did a rebuild of a D type from the two cars claiming the same chassis number, now what became of all the left over bits I have occasionally wondered, as I had left the company by then.
Mostly what one sees are the results of old and well meant maintenance, remember that in the day these cars were not anywhere near as valuable as they are today and the prime objective was to get the thing mended and ready for next weekend's racing. As values went up so did the temptation to be less honest. When I was at Lynx I occasionally saw D types where old work was now coming apart or, very occasionally, where some valuable original part had been robbed and replaced with an incorrect but available, or makeable, but cheap part. It was always our policy there to stop the instant anything untoward was uncovered and call the owner in to discuss the next step. I can only recall one where that resulted in litigation, in that case between the owner and the company to whom he had taken the car previously for restoration, having decided we were too expensive - which takes us back to para two about expensive restorations!
Today so much water has flowed under the bridge that the origin of much dubious work may never be known, Caveat Emptor - and as above, buy a Lynx Replica built by the original company at Hastings before 1991 ish!
I've got work sheets and photos of that restoration - you're not wrong when you say it needed a bit of work. My paperwork states the work was carried out by John Ford which hopefully means something to you. I was led to believe when I visited Prowess that it was being undertaken for a Dutch museum/collection. My papers are a copy of a letter to the owners attempting to explain how much work was involved, presumably to justify the costs accumulated. I know Hugo Spowers liked to retain originality as much as possible, but with this car it was nigh on impossible.Regarding the sometimes astronomical restoration costs it should be borne in mind that every such project is a voyage of discovery through an uncharted sea of financial reefs. For example, whilst at Prowess we worked on a Ferrari 550 Monza which had just come back from South America where it had been butchered to accommodate a Chevvy V8 when the too complicated original lump broke. The throttle pedal was missing but not the cross shaft to which it was splined for adjustment. We made a new pedal and then discovered that the spline was an involute spline, don't ask me why, but that meant sending both bits away to a specialist machine shop who charged us an absolute fortune to cut the splines, thousands in todays money. Repeat something similar for everything you touch, hopefully do-able in house but still taking time, old accidents and repairs that are now time expired and so on, then you start to see why these restorations cost what they do. We also did a rebuild of a D type from the two cars claiming the same chassis number, now what became of all the left over bits I have occasionally wondered, as I had left the company by then.
Mostly what one sees are the results of old and well meant maintenance, remember that in the day these cars were not anywhere near as valuable as they are today and the prime objective was to get the thing mended and ready for next weekend's racing. As values went up so did the temptation to be less honest. When I was at Lynx I occasionally saw D types where old work was now coming apart or, very occasionally, where some valuable original part had been robbed and replaced with an incorrect but available, or makeable, but cheap part. It was always our policy there to stop the instant anything untoward was uncovered and call the owner in to discuss the next step. I can only recall one where that resulted in litigation, in that case between the owner and the company to whom he had taken the car previously for restoration, having decided we were too expensive - which takes us back to para two about expensive restorations!
Today so much water has flowed under the bridge that the origin of much dubious work may never be known, Caveat Emptor - and as above, buy a Lynx Replica built by the original company at Hastings before 1991 ish!
When I was there a D-type was in one of the garages. Maybe it is "this car" tht we are discussing. It was stabled with a lovely Ferrari 166/195 coupe. Behind the garage was the bodywork of the Frank Gardner Jaguar (XK120?) - what a place to work!
(I didn't get the job.........)
nicanary said:
I've got work sheets and photos of that restoration - you're not wrong when you say it needed a bit of work. My paperwork states the work was carried out by John Ford which hopefully means something to you. I was led to believe when I visited Prowess that it was being undertaken for a Dutch museum/collection. My papers are a copy of a letter to the owners attempting to explain how much work was involved, presumably to justify the costs accumulated. I know Hugo Spowers liked to retain originality as much as possible, but with this car it was nigh on impossible.
When I was there a D-type was in one of the garages. Maybe it is "this car" tht we are discussing. It was stabled with a lovely Ferrari 166/195 coupe. Behind the garage was the bodywork of the Frank Gardner Jaguar (XK120?) - what a place to work!
(I didn't get the job.........)
The "double car" was XKD 606 and it is in the Louwman Museum in The Hague.When I was there a D-type was in one of the garages. Maybe it is "this car" tht we are discussing. It was stabled with a lovely Ferrari 166/195 coupe. Behind the garage was the bodywork of the Frank Gardner Jaguar (XK120?) - what a place to work!
(I didn't get the job.........)
https://www.louwmanmuseum.nl/Ontdekken/Ontdek-de-c...
Definitely worth a visit!
The place is amazing!
I remember John Ford well, and his pony tail, a good guy. I also remember him having a fit of frustration at something that wasn't going right and heaving an axle stand out of an open window into the car park - narrowly missing a very shiny large Merc that had just been parked there by a customer!!! Where are you now John?? Another memory, the Monza exhausts came out of slots in the back of the LH wing and the noise - and flames - on startup were something to see!!
Asked Bonhams the below last week as clarifying info for a newsletter:
"Auctions are definitely in buyer beware territory. Your terms and conditions make this very clear. So my questions. Bonhams have a motoring team experts in their field. If presented with a car that you knew through expertise and knowledge would fall foul of DVLA rules (for example converted from saloon to convertible or a shortened chassis) would you:
? If owner/vendor had not mentioned it, most likely because he would not be aware, highlight the situation as apart from anything else it materially affects the estimate?
? Would you insist on mentioning in the auction description?
? Would you refuse to consign car if owner insisted on this not being mentioned in auction description."
The answer that came back was:
"I think the following (taken from our conditions of sale as printed in our catalogues) should answer your questions:
13. Vehicle Registration; Taxes and
13.1 The Buyer is advised that laws in several jurisdictions require that a Lot which is a motor vehicle be registered with governmental authorities, and that a certificate of title is usually necessary in order to obtain such registration. Bonhams makes no representation or warranty with regard to any registration or tite document which may accompany the Lot (whether delivered at or following the sale) or with regard to the future issuance of any title or registration document concerning the Lot. The Buyer of a Lot is solely responsible for making its own independent investigation with regard to the registrability of the Lot and ensuring that it is registered as may be required by law.
13.2 Buyer hereby agrees to defend, indemnify and hold harmless Bonhams against any claims or assessments by any state, county or other governmental agency for any failure to register a motor vechile Lot and for any unpaid sales or use taxes and any unpaid documentation and licensing fees )including any interest and penalties that may accrue or be assessed thereon) arising from the sale of a Lot."
"Auctions are definitely in buyer beware territory. Your terms and conditions make this very clear. So my questions. Bonhams have a motoring team experts in their field. If presented with a car that you knew through expertise and knowledge would fall foul of DVLA rules (for example converted from saloon to convertible or a shortened chassis) would you:
? If owner/vendor had not mentioned it, most likely because he would not be aware, highlight the situation as apart from anything else it materially affects the estimate?
? Would you insist on mentioning in the auction description?
? Would you refuse to consign car if owner insisted on this not being mentioned in auction description."
The answer that came back was:
"I think the following (taken from our conditions of sale as printed in our catalogues) should answer your questions:
13. Vehicle Registration; Taxes and
13.1 The Buyer is advised that laws in several jurisdictions require that a Lot which is a motor vehicle be registered with governmental authorities, and that a certificate of title is usually necessary in order to obtain such registration. Bonhams makes no representation or warranty with regard to any registration or tite document which may accompany the Lot (whether delivered at or following the sale) or with regard to the future issuance of any title or registration document concerning the Lot. The Buyer of a Lot is solely responsible for making its own independent investigation with regard to the registrability of the Lot and ensuring that it is registered as may be required by law.
13.2 Buyer hereby agrees to defend, indemnify and hold harmless Bonhams against any claims or assessments by any state, county or other governmental agency for any failure to register a motor vechile Lot and for any unpaid sales or use taxes and any unpaid documentation and licensing fees )including any interest and penalties that may accrue or be assessed thereon) arising from the sale of a Lot."
Back to XKD 604; sorry folks. Greg Johnson always said the car was "little damaged" but this photo has now come to light. Did it polish out?
Wrecked 604 by Tony Brown, on Flickr
Make your own minds up.
Wrecked 604 by Tony Brown, on FlickrMake your own minds up.
lowdrag said:
Back to XKD 604; sorry folks. Greg Johnson always said the car was "little damaged" but this photo has now come to light. Did it polish out?
Wrecked 604 by Tony Brown, on Flickr
Make your own minds up.
as classic restorations go, is it that bad?Wrecked 604 by Tony Brown, on FlickrMake your own minds up.
shirley there've been a lot 'worse'?
CABC said:
as classic restorations go, is it that bad?
shirley there've been a lot 'worse'?
They probably felt they had more D-Types than they needed at this point anyway fixing it would have been pointless, add the fact that they needed to fix another one and 604 was sitting there with a few of the right bits, raiding it for parts would have seemed the obvious thing to do.shirley there've been a lot 'worse'?
lowdrag said:
Sigh; oh the shallowness of the world of the internet. It is like reading only the last page of a book. Please read above before commenting.
This car was destroyed in 1956 and dismantled by Jaguar. It was hardly a classic then, now was it?
quite right. as you were. This car was destroyed in 1956 and dismantled by Jaguar. It was hardly a classic then, now was it?
i'll get my coat.
Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff