Another mystery car

[galro]

I won't hold my breath given how many places it have been posted now without any answers, but at least there is a chance I guess. As mentioned they do seems to have knowledge of a lot of obscure stuff there.

[torquespeak]

Either on this thread or another where it's been discussed, someone did ponder a South American connection. I do wonder if this could be the case, given that the car is exiting Vere St into Oxford St - the Brazilian Consulate is based on the former, about 20 metres from the car's position.

[uk66fastback]

Slightly tenuous link that, TS!

Just been reading a few things on various websites here and there tonight and have seen reference to rear screens from production cars being very commonly used as fronts screens on specials and also that the 'scene' for want of a better word back then went through a phase where gullwing doors were all the rage - well I never, you learn something every day ... also the fact that there were a lot more small manufacturers of these bodies for Ford chassis' than I thought - of course they were plentiful in those days.

Still no further on, as you were!

[lostkiwi]

It has elements of the Saab Sonett II - a car released in 1966 (so two years later). Maybe a prototype?


Also the Saab Sonett III (a 1970 rework) has a very strong resemblance to the rear:

Edited by lostkiwi on Wednesday 17th February 16:40

[galro]

I'm pretty sure it is not. First of all the proportions are off (i.e. our mystery car have a door that wraps around the rear wheel well and long rear overhand) and the development of the second generation Sonett was started around a year after this picture was taken in 1962. The earliest prototypes of the Saab Sonett II have survieved and looks like this:

[838HNK]

This is doing my head in ... another close but no prize .. the Diva GT

[galro]

Are there anyone familiar with Berkeley here?

I have tried to find pictures of three Berkeley Sports SE492 that were taken to Italy and fitted with "hardtops" designed by Giovanni Lurani. I realize that this car is probably not one of them, but knowing something about the car industry in Italy at the time it would not surprise me if what is described as "fitting a hardtop" actually consisted of constructing a whole new hardtop body from the ground up. Proportions wise I do think the mystery car could theoretically be a Berkeley. I would love to see if anyone had a picture of how those three cars looked like or if they were aware of how they looked like so they could confirm that this is not one of those.

[douglasb]

I think that a special on a Berkeley chassis is a promising suggestion.

The door stretching back over the rear wheelarch suggests that either the driver is sitting low down and far back or that access is needed to a rear 2+2 seat, but either of these would get in the way of a driven rear axle. As Berkeleys used a front mounted motorcycle engine and front wheel drive there is no need for a driveshaft or rear axle. With the right independent rear suspension either of these answers becomes plausible.

The door stretching back over the rear wheelarch also suggests that it is a small car (smaller than a Spitfire or Alpine).

Maybe I'm interpreting things to fit the Berkeley idea but it also appears to be a small car judging by the height of the people around. The likely Berkeley had a wheelbase of 70 inches. Based on the mystery car having 12 inch wheels (which the SE492 had) and a crude measurement from my laptop screen the wheelbase of the mystery car is pretty damn close to 70 inches.

We might be getting close to an answer......

[Qcarchoo]

This is the hardtop. Made by Riva, the Italian boat makers:

[galro]

Qcarchoo said:

This is the hardtop. Made by Riva, the Italian boat makers:

Thanks. Where did you find it? But then it is indeed clearly not the car, no surprise there then.

[galro]

douglasb said:

Maybe I'm interpreting things to fit the Berkeley idea but it also appears to be a small car judging by the height of the people around. The likely Berkeley had a wheelbase of 70 inches. Based on the mystery car having 12 inch wheels (which the SE492 had) and a crude measurement from my laptop screen the wheelbase of the mystery car is pretty damn close to 70 inches.

We might be getting close to an answer......

If someone are bored then it should be possible to find approximately size of the car based on the windshield if it is indeed taken from a Hillman Minx.

[Sideways Tim]

Has anyone got a list of exhibits at the London/Earls Court Motor shows in 1960-1962? Said car could have been something that was on display, no?

[The Don of Croy]

galro said:

What I know: His real name was Robert H. Dennis, he came from Surrey, England. He raced the car at Goodwood and in other events. He must have had access to some special cars as he fitted a Jaguar C-type engine in db3/6 and he later switched his ungainly body to DBR2/1 before switching it back again at a later date. Not really much to go on here, I know.

Could he be related to the fire engine company based in Guildford (roots back to 1898)? One of the family started his own coachbuilders in Guildford as recently as 1985.

This has been a very enjoyable thread...

[threespires]

The Don of Croy said:

Could he be related to the fire engine company based in Guildford (roots back to 1898)? One of the family started his own coachbuilders in Guildford as recently as 1985.

This has been a very enjoyable thread...

☺☺☺

[galro]

The Don of Croy said:

Could he be related to the fire engine company based in Guildford (roots back to 1898)? One of the family started his own coachbuilders in Guildford as recently as 1985.

This has been a very enjoyable thread...

I don't know. The little information I had was from a listing of the Aston Martin db3/6.

http://www.anamera.com/en/detail/car/4163/index.ht...

[galro]

In another chapter of something that I suspect will never lead anywhere, have anyone got access to a magazine called Motor Racing from the early '60? One forumer on another say this:

plutoman said:

Anyone got copies of these? (they're the BRSCC mags with the yellow covers) 1961-62. Looking for one picture - probably in the editorial / news section at the front of the magazine. I'm 90% certain it's this exact car.

http://forums.autosport.com/topic/200833-1950s60s-mystery-car/page-2

I assume this is the magazine:

[douglasb]

galro said:

If someone are bored then it should be possible to find approximately size of the car based on the windshield if it is indeed taken from a Hillman Minx.

Or to approach things from the other direction.........

Let's assume that "70 inch wheelbase and 12 inch wheels" is correct (the wheel size to wheelbase proportion is certainly pretty much spot on). A BMC Mini had a wheelbase of 80 inches. That suggests that the mystery car is tiny. The door extending back to over the rear arch is, I think, further confirmation of just how small this car is.

Even if the wheels are 13 inch the wheelbase would only be about 78 inches.

The Minx (at that time the Series III (although all the "Series" Minxes were much the same size) had a wheelbase of 96 inches.

The width of the Berkeley was 50 inches and the width of the Minx was 60 inches so I don't think that a Minx screen would fit. The Sunbeam Alpine (which had a Hillman Minx, well Hillman Husky really, base) had an 85 inch wheelbase on 13 inch tyres and a 60 inch width.

So I don't think that a Minx screen is the answer unless the car is running on 15 inch wheels as the wheel/wheelbase proportion doesn't work. And if it was on 15 inch wheels the car would appear to be a lot larger compared to the people around.

I'm prepared to be shot down in flames for any mistakes......

[galro]

We also have the larger picture it was part of where a Ford Thames 300E (I think) is quite close to it to compare with. Our mystery car appears to be smaller than the Ford so I will definitely agree that this is not a big car. I can't say for sure how small it is but it is at least smaller than cars like the Sunbeam Alpine, Saab Sonett etc.

London Transport KGK538 LUC260 by Chris Stanley, on Flickr

[uk66fastback]

I don't think that is the driver you can see in there (who looks to be leaning back). I think it's the reflection of the building to the right of the photographer ...

I think the driver would be sitting a lot closer to the front of the car ... directly the other side of the woman in red. Also, those wheels are bigger than 12" imo.

[douglasb]

uk66fastback said:

Also, those wheels are bigger than 12" imo.

I realise that it is difficult to compare things in the photo, but if the van had the same size wheels (13 inch) as the 100E saloon that it was based on then I think that 12 inch wheels for the mystery car are realistic.