FAKE D-TYPE XKD604 WITHDRAWN FROM AUCTION
Discussion
As reported by Jaguar Magazine (Australia) this morning.
"FAKE D-TYPE XKD604 WITHDRAWN FROM AUCTION
It started right here on our Facebook page a few months ago, and has been a very long and frustrating battle to alert the Jaguar and collecting ends of the market that the Long Nose D-Type XKD604, due to be auctioned in January, was a fake. Now it seems the car has been pulled from the RM Sothebys US auction.
There have been many protests from the owner and those associated with the car, but the truth is that the real XKD604 was crashed on the first lap of its only race, and scrapped back at Browns Lane.
It happened at Silverstone in May 1956, and while the factory may have used a few safe parts for spares, the car was officially destroyed and never left the factory with a bill of sale.
There were claims it had been slipped out the door and to Ecurie Ecosse, and when that was proved to be a fable, the story was then changed to a named Jaguar devotee - who was 17 at the time and while he is now passed, didn't ever own XKD604.
So it seems we can breathe freely again - but with anything like this - always remember to do your research - and - buyer beware.
There will be another one!"
www.jaguarmagazine.com
"FAKE D-TYPE XKD604 WITHDRAWN FROM AUCTION
It started right here on our Facebook page a few months ago, and has been a very long and frustrating battle to alert the Jaguar and collecting ends of the market that the Long Nose D-Type XKD604, due to be auctioned in January, was a fake. Now it seems the car has been pulled from the RM Sothebys US auction.
There have been many protests from the owner and those associated with the car, but the truth is that the real XKD604 was crashed on the first lap of its only race, and scrapped back at Browns Lane.
It happened at Silverstone in May 1956, and while the factory may have used a few safe parts for spares, the car was officially destroyed and never left the factory with a bill of sale.
There were claims it had been slipped out the door and to Ecurie Ecosse, and when that was proved to be a fable, the story was then changed to a named Jaguar devotee - who was 17 at the time and while he is now passed, didn't ever own XKD604.
So it seems we can breathe freely again - but with anything like this - always remember to do your research - and - buyer beware.
There will be another one!"
www.jaguarmagazine.com
The claimed provenance, it worth paying attention to the comments, where an anon poster questions key aspects of the narrative, but seems to have had their comments removed, but with the responses preserved.
http://www.coventryracers.com/cars/detail/?car=XKD...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I've been at loggerheads with the owner of this car for seven years. RM have confirmed today that they withdrew it from the sale due to the doubtful provenance. I even met him at Le Mans in 2010 and argued the case, but he has tried to persist that it was a real car. Have had long conversations with Les Hughes and Paul Skilleter too. Some things I can't print, but the skulduggery goes back nearly forty years.
I've been at loggerheads with the owner of this car for seven years. RM have confirmed today that they withdrew it from the sale due to the doubtful provenance. I even met him at Le Mans in 2010 and argued the case, but he has tried to persist that it was a real car. Have had long conversations with Les Hughes and Paul Skilleter too. Some things I can't print, but the skulduggery goes back nearly forty years.
Jacobyte said:
Which manufacturer was it that said words to the effect of "We only made 50 of these cars, so it's a surprise that there are only 60 left"?
I think that quote has been used a few times but I remember it being relevant most recently when describing the number of 250 GTO which are genuine. Brian Lister also claimed there were more "originals" out there than he ever made.
With D-Types a number of the split personalities have come back together. When I dropped my XK off at CKL years back there were a pair of "D-Types" sitting next to each other with everything labelled A or B and the parts were slowly being sorted to those that belonged together to form the real original being reunited. At XK60 they had another recently reunited pair and RGC had XKSS701/XKD555 sitting next to each other, and these have since been re-merger. But even after that I was talking to the owner when someone else came up and said "You know your XKSS has my D-Types bonnet on it, but don't worry as my D has yours"
As the values have risen I guess the value of an undisputed car has exceeded the value to 2 disputed cars, so it's made sense for 1 owner to buy out the other.
With D-Types a number of the split personalities have come back together. When I dropped my XK off at CKL years back there were a pair of "D-Types" sitting next to each other with everything labelled A or B and the parts were slowly being sorted to those that belonged together to form the real original being reunited. At XK60 they had another recently reunited pair and RGC had XKSS701/XKD555 sitting next to each other, and these have since been re-merger. But even after that I was talking to the owner when someone else came up and said "You know your XKSS has my D-Types bonnet on it, but don't worry as my D has yours"
As the values have risen I guess the value of an undisputed car has exceeded the value to 2 disputed cars, so it's made sense for 1 owner to buy out the other.
This is most definitely the case with Lotus Elevens, plenty of "replicas" out there and some cars with very "interesting" history. The problem was when the cars were worth peanuts and nobody cared about history and chassis plates. Now they're worth something cars are being "found" and histories suddenly appear.
Top tip, never buy a Lotus Eleven without talking to Vic.
Top tip, never buy a Lotus Eleven without talking to Vic.
My Dad's works Mini Cooper in '65
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
It was broken for spares in the early '70's when it was completely shagged and worth nothing.
Registration number 407 ARX was 're-registered' with DVLA in 1989
If you want to see the piece on Top Gear about it go to http://newepisodes.me/watch-top-gear-online-free/4... 39 minutes in.
The bodyshell shown on Top Gear is categorically not the one when my Dad owned the car in the mid '60's and as James May says "There are boxes and boxes of components from the Cooper racing era"
So the car disappeared (scrapped) in the early '70's, was re-registered with DVLA in '89 and a shell which isn't the original, together with components "from the Cooper racing era" were all put together to make...............a genuine works Cooper(?)............... i don't think so.
p.s. Car was subsequently advertised for sale a few years back for £100k
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
It was broken for spares in the early '70's when it was completely shagged and worth nothing.
Registration number 407 ARX was 're-registered' with DVLA in 1989
If you want to see the piece on Top Gear about it go to http://newepisodes.me/watch-top-gear-online-free/4... 39 minutes in.
The bodyshell shown on Top Gear is categorically not the one when my Dad owned the car in the mid '60's and as James May says "There are boxes and boxes of components from the Cooper racing era"
So the car disappeared (scrapped) in the early '70's, was re-registered with DVLA in '89 and a shell which isn't the original, together with components "from the Cooper racing era" were all put together to make...............a genuine works Cooper(?)............... i don't think so.
p.s. Car was subsequently advertised for sale a few years back for £100k
On a similar theme. A certain Belfast racer/garage owner acquired the works Team Lotus Formula 2 team of 2no Lotus 48s along with spares at the end of the 68 season. John Watson came to UK prominence at the following years Easter Monday F2 race at Thruxton driving 1 of these cars but unfortunately crashed out severely damaging the monocoque chassis. A replacement monocoque was manufactured with or probably without the knowledge of local aircraft manufacturers Short Bros and Harland in Belfast! Subsequently it is believed at least 2 further monocoques were manufactured locally and some years down the line there were at least 4 ex works Lotus 48s in the marketplace!
Roger Clark campaigned a MK1 Escort RS 1600 in Esso Uniflo colours reg LVX 942 J, winning the 1972 RAC Rally. Boreham sold this car to a local Ulster driver who continued to rally it until the advent of the MK 2. He then tidied it up and put it away. Lo and behold many years later LVX 942 J reappeared as a refurbished version of the original. See YouTube Roger Clark and Tony Masons MK 1 RS. 1600 Rally Car. This car is a copy and even Clark and Mason were fooled into thinking it original. The owner of the original bought this copy to remove it from the marketplace and eventually sold it on to another local enthusiast. Thus we have 2 LVX 942 J rally cars residing in Ulster, within spitting distance of each other !
MORAL? BUYER BEWARE !
Roger Clark campaigned a MK1 Escort RS 1600 in Esso Uniflo colours reg LVX 942 J, winning the 1972 RAC Rally. Boreham sold this car to a local Ulster driver who continued to rally it until the advent of the MK 2. He then tidied it up and put it away. Lo and behold many years later LVX 942 J reappeared as a refurbished version of the original. See YouTube Roger Clark and Tony Masons MK 1 RS. 1600 Rally Car. This car is a copy and even Clark and Mason were fooled into thinking it original. The owner of the original bought this copy to remove it from the marketplace and eventually sold it on to another local enthusiast. Thus we have 2 LVX 942 J rally cars residing in Ulster, within spitting distance of each other !
MORAL? BUYER BEWARE !
On a similar theme. A certain Belfast racer/garage owner acquired the works Team Lotus Formula 2 team of 2no Lotus 48s along with spares at the end of the 68 season. John Watson came to UK prominence at the following years Easter Monday F2 race at Thruxton driving 1 of these cars but unfortunately crashed out severely damaging the monocoque chassis. A replacement monocoque was manufactured with or probably without the knowledge of local aircraft manufacturers Short Bros and Harland in Belfast! Subsequently it is believed at least 2 further monocoques were manufactured locally and some years down the line there were at least 4 ex works Lotus 48s in the marketplace!
Roger Clark campaigned a MK1 Escort RS 1600 in Esso Uniflo colours reg LVX 942 J, winning the 1972 RAC Rally. Boreham sold this car to a local Ulster driver who continued to rally it until the advent of the MK 2. He then tidied it up and put it away. Lo and behold many years later LVX 942 J reappeared as a refurbished version of the original. See YouTube Roger Clark and Tony Masons MK 1 RS. 1600 Rally Car. This car is a copy and even Clark and Mason were fooled into thinking it original. The owner of the original bought this copy to remove it from the marketplace and eventually sold it on to another local enthusiast. Thus we have 2 LVX 942 J rally cars residing in Ulster, within spitting distance of each other !
MORAL? BUYER BEWARE !
Roger Clark campaigned a MK1 Escort RS 1600 in Esso Uniflo colours reg LVX 942 J, winning the 1972 RAC Rally. Boreham sold this car to a local Ulster driver who continued to rally it until the advent of the MK 2. He then tidied it up and put it away. Lo and behold many years later LVX 942 J reappeared as a refurbished version of the original. See YouTube Roger Clark and Tony Masons MK 1 RS. 1600 Rally Car. This car is a copy and even Clark and Mason were fooled into thinking it original. The owner of the original bought this copy to remove it from the marketplace and eventually sold it on to another local enthusiast. Thus we have 2 LVX 942 J rally cars residing in Ulster, within spitting distance of each other !
MORAL? BUYER BEWARE !
cindydog3 said:
Roger Clark campaigned a MK1 Escort RS 1600 in Esso Uniflo colours reg LVX 942 J, winning the 1972 RAC Rally. Boreham sold this car to a local Ulster driver who continued to rally it until the advent of the MK 2. He then tidied it up and put it away. Lo and behold many years later LVX 942 J reappeared as a refurbished version of the original. See YouTube Roger Clark and Tony Masons MK 1 RS. 1600 Rally Car. This car is a copy and even Clark and Mason were fooled into thinking it original.
I knew the guy responsible for the 'copy' LVX....had known him back in the early 80's when he owned a Mexico.Can't remember the registration, something like XYZ 1, but there were 2 Frogeyes both claiming the same reg at one time - they'd both been off the road for years and were going through the Fobhvc/DVLA process, so it's not only expensive cars this happens to. One or both had been raced and were famous in their day so were more valuable than an ordinary Frog.
One was the car that originally had the reg and was crashed and stuck in a shed for 30 years, the other was the car that the reg was transferred to in the 60s; may or may not have been transferred with the knowledge of the registration authority - it was easy to swop identities when chassis numbers were only screwed on!
One was the car that originally had the reg and was crashed and stuck in a shed for 30 years, the other was the car that the reg was transferred to in the 60s; may or may not have been transferred with the knowledge of the registration authority - it was easy to swop identities when chassis numbers were only screwed on!
This image from 1956 shows XKD604 being built with, behind it XKD604 and xkd604. XKD604 has just been finished and is no longer in shot. So there Tony
Seriously Tony, this shot is fascinating. Was the D type really built in a production line? And the louvres followed by no fin, then fin, fin so I imagine the actual cars can be identified. How long was this image taken before the fire?
Or are these XKSS??
So many questions...
a8hex said:
Brian Lister also claimed there were more "originals" out there than he ever made.
With D-Types a number of the split personalities have come back together. When I dropped my XK off at CKL years back there were a pair of "D-Types" sitting next to each other with everything labelled A or B and the parts were slowly being sorted to those that belonged together to form the real original being reunited. At XK60 they had another recently reunited pair and RGC had XKSS701/XKD555 sitting next to each other, and these have since been re-merger. But even after that I was talking to the owner when someone else came up and said "You know your XKSS has my D-Types bonnet on it, but don't worry as my D has yours"
As the values have risen I guess the value of an undisputed car has exceeded the value to 2 disputed cars, so it's made sense for 1 owner to buy out the other.
Didn't Graeme Love finally manage to get his hands on the car that contained the last key parts for his D Type VIN this year?With D-Types a number of the split personalities have come back together. When I dropped my XK off at CKL years back there were a pair of "D-Types" sitting next to each other with everything labelled A or B and the parts were slowly being sorted to those that belonged together to form the real original being reunited. At XK60 they had another recently reunited pair and RGC had XKSS701/XKD555 sitting next to each other, and these have since been re-merger. But even after that I was talking to the owner when someone else came up and said "You know your XKSS has my D-Types bonnet on it, but don't worry as my D has yours"
As the values have risen I guess the value of an undisputed car has exceeded the value to 2 disputed cars, so it's made sense for 1 owner to buy out the other.
There are thousands of fakes out there. Just ask the Prescott Kit Car Club
The Jaguar market is riddled. Now Heritage are going round trying to find key bits of info before those who know the truths are all dead, many owners are trying to get their 'provenance' signed off officially.
There is one 'famous' Jag where the owner is waiting patiently for my father to pass and while he waits he has his solicitors on speed dial incase my father speaks out publicly about what really happened to his old car.
The market is totally bent and a haven for many a charlatan.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Sunday 3rd January 14:50
DonkeyApple said:
a8hex said:
Brian Lister also claimed there were more "originals" out there than he ever made.
With D-Types a number of the split personalities have come back together. When I dropped my XK off at CKL years back there were a pair of "D-Types" sitting next to each other with everything labelled A or B and the parts were slowly being sorted to those that belonged together to form the real original being reunited. At XK60 they had another recently reunited pair and RGC had XKSS701/XKD555 sitting next to each other, and these have since been re-merger. But even after that I was talking to the owner when someone else came up and said "You know your XKSS has my D-Types bonnet on it, but don't worry as my D has yours"
As the values have risen I guess the value of an undisputed car has exceeded the value to 2 disputed cars, so it's made sense for 1 owner to buy out the other.
Didn't Graeme Love finally manage to get his hands on the car that contained the last key parts for his D Type VIN this year?With D-Types a number of the split personalities have come back together. When I dropped my XK off at CKL years back there were a pair of "D-Types" sitting next to each other with everything labelled A or B and the parts were slowly being sorted to those that belonged together to form the real original being reunited. At XK60 they had another recently reunited pair and RGC had XKSS701/XKD555 sitting next to each other, and these have since been re-merger. But even after that I was talking to the owner when someone else came up and said "You know your XKSS has my D-Types bonnet on it, but don't worry as my D has yours"
As the values have risen I guess the value of an undisputed car has exceeded the value to 2 disputed cars, so it's made sense for 1 owner to buy out the other.
There are thousands of fakes out there. Just ask the Prescott Kit Car Club
The Jaguar market is riddled. Now Heritage are going round trying to find key bits of info before those who know the truths are all dead, many owners are trying to get their 'provenance' signed off officially.
There is one 'famous' Jag where the owner is waiting patiently for my father to pass and while he waits he has his solicitors on speed dial incase my father speaks out publicly about what really happened to his old car.
The market is totally bent and a haven for many a charlatan.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Sunday 3rd January 14:50
Here she is with Chris Window waiting noise testing at XK60. I thought I had a picture of the 2 of it sitting next to itself
I think sadly for many of the people involved there are no nice simple answers to seemly simple questions.
In the case of XKD604 the factory records state it was dismantled and give a date. They also have records of some of the parts then being used in repairs of XKD603 and perhaps others. It seems part of the car which is the topic of this thread is stamped with the number XKD604 and over stamped with 603. Both Terry McGrath and CKL seem happy that there are many original Jaguar D-Type parts there, but also key omissions (incidentally the XKD505 half came with an original factory 3.8 D-Type engine which was one of the parts missing from 604 when first reconstructed at Lynx). But the history is clear, XKD604 as a car ceased to exist at Silverstone in 1956.
In other cases the history is not so clear cut. Many of the D-Types/XKSS continued to be raced well past the 50s. XKD701, I believe was once converted to except a Yank V8 using a lump hammer. Parts went this way and that as owners cared more about racing than what happened to which bits, bringing everything back together now is bound to be fraught, if at all possible.
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