Harbingers of doom rejoice, classic car prices chat thread

[v8250]

bencollins said:

Just a heads up for Saturday, some lovely stuff, mostly affordable.
http://www.angliacarauctions.co.uk/en/classic-auct...

That's a great and varied selection of cars, mostly correctly priced...though the S3C seems a little toppy. Will be very interesting seeing the results.

[Vintage Racer]

I have owned various 'classics' for almost 50 years now and the one constant, is that I have spent most of my life saying "if only I still had that one".

That includes all types of machinery including E-type's bought for £500.00 (yes, they could be bought for that kind of money back in the late 60's).

I even had 3 Lotus Cortina's on my drive at one time and all 3 only owed me £1000.00!

I also had Ford Prefect's, Kit Cars of the 50's and Austin 7 Special's

In my mind, that makes me a classic car enthusiast of the 'oily rag' variety.


They all made me money over various periods and at the time, I remember thinking "how much" when reading through the classifieds in 'Motor Sport' at my next dream car which was always annoyingly just out of reach.



3 weeks ago, I bought my latest classic and due to the low interest rates offered by most banks etc, this car is an 'investment'

Did I pay too much for it? - No

Did I pay a lot of money for it? - Yes

If I sell it in 5 years, will I make a profit? - Yes

In ten years time, will I be saying "if only I still had that one"? - Yes


In my mind, this means that I can be an 'Enthusiast' and an 'Investor'. - That's the way of the world and if it pushes up prices, so be it.




As long as you can justify the price to yourself, - If the car you want is within your reach, just buy it, enjoy it and maintain it.



The alternative is to look back in a few years and say "I wish I had bought that one"

[andyps]

bencollins said:

Just a heads up for Saturday, some lovely stuff, mostly affordable.
http://www.angliacarauctions.co.uk/en/classic-auct...

Would it be wrong to say that the one which interests me most is the Marina campervan. I have a strange desire to own one of those!

[Kmoosa]

bencollins said:

Perhaps auctions give the best barometers of prices, they are also a bit random if you have/don't have competing bidders.
Some of the results here have me scratching my head on what is and isn't cheap/dear
http://www.classiccarauctions.co.uk/cca-december-2...

u/v merc £2k (after wheel change)
http://www.classiccarauctions.co.uk/1990-mercedes-...

and o/v
....well at this auction nothing really...perhaps the unsold ones indicate a cooling of?

The R129 Merc in the second link is being punted back out in this Saturday's auction - http://www.angliacarauctions.co.uk/en/classic-auct...

[9xxNick]

andyps said:

Would it be wrong to say that the one which interests me most is the Marina campervan. I have a strange desire to own one of those!

Not at all. It exudes a certain 70's-era acceptance of modest capabilities which can start to feel quite refreshing in the iPad age.

Saying that, the 105 Junior looks rather nice.

[andyps]

9xxNick said:

andyps said:

Would it be wrong to say that the one which interests me most is the Marina campervan. I have a strange desire to own one of those!

Not at all. It exudes a certain 70's-era acceptance of modest capabilities which can start to feel quite refreshing in the iPad age.

Saying that, the 105 Junior looks rather nice.

Thanks, and I agree about the 105!

[rovermorris999]

The C2 Corvette looks under-estimated to me unless there is something very wrong with it.

[Lowtimer]

I had the same reaction to that C2, and did man maths. Then I thought about driving a 52 year old 300-350 hp car home on drum brakes and 205/75 tyres in the pouring rain, coupled with the fact that Mrs LT refuses to be passengered in LHD cars, and undid the man maths...

[bencollins]

Lowtimer said:

I had the same reaction to that C2, and did man maths. Then I thought about driving a 52 year old 300-350 hp car home on drum brakes and 205/75 tyres in the pouring rain, coupled with the fact that Mrs LT refuses to be passengered in LHD cars, and undid the man maths...

[355Chris355]

DonkeyApple said:

The biggest impact on the market this year will be the recent implementation of money controls by the Chinese govt. Overnight it has removed much of the new demand growth that was anticipated.

In addition, the LTV rates on classics has been being pulled back by the specialist lenders and really importantly, the number of lenders that will accept cars as collateral has declined over winter and rates gone up on those that remain.

There could be some real bargains to be had this year for real enthusiasts because there are catagorically going to be some distressed and forced sellers in the market and fewer buyers.

Interesting points. I can see a lot of the anticipated emerging market demand evaporating as stock markets fall, commodity wealth declines and emerging market currencies weaken.

Grateful if you could expand on the impact of money controls?
Also, grateful if you could add more detail around the LTV rates. How have these changed?

Thanks

[srob]

My old man's favourite saying when (justifying) buying old motorbikes is that you're not paying too much, you're just paying too early.

Even if they drop a little, they will go up again but I guess that only works if you're in for the long haul, not to make a quick buck.

[Ahonen]

bencollins said:

Just a heads up for Saturday, some lovely stuff, mostly affordable.
http://www.angliacarauctions.co.uk/en/classic-auct...

Some nice cars there. I've always wanted a 635CSi and this one's in the best colour: http://www.angliacarauctions.co.uk/en/classic-auct...

If only I had the space in the garage. But then I'd be on a slippery slope as I would have started a mid-1980s Group A collection and I'd have to go and find a Rover Vitesse (another favourite of mine), a Volvo 240 Turbo and a Holden Commodore. I'd probably draw the line at the XJS though.

[northo]

DonkeyApple said:

The biggest impact on the market this year will be the recent implementation of money controls by the Chinese govt. Overnight it has removed much of the new demand growth that was anticipated.

In addition, the LTV rates on classics has been being pulled back by the specialist lenders and really importantly, the number of lenders that will accept cars as collateral has declined over winter and rates gone up on those that remain.

There could be some real bargains to be had this year for real enthusiasts because there are catagorically going to be some distressed and forced sellers in the market and fewer buyers.

I'd love to know where you got this information.

From our perspective LTV & rates are better than they have ever been in the last 5 years and lenders are looking for more classic car business with new lenders trying to get into the market place. That said you are partially correct as some brokers have their burned bridges with lenders for a number of reasons and they will be struggling to place deals.

We are busier coming into January 2016 than at any point in the last 10 years (no - we aren't talking up the market) and we have been seeing plenty of well-heeled enthusiasts buying good cars at good prices for many months - forget the silly asking prices.

Will there be distressed sellers in the market? Who knows but given the voluntarily low LTVs on most classic car finance agreements we think it is unlikely that owners will be bailing out of cars.

As for basing values on auction results, auction sales only make up c.10% of the UK market.....

[northo]

355Chris355 said:

Interesting points. I can see a lot of the anticipated emerging market demand evaporating as stock markets fall, commodity wealth declines and emerging market currencies weaken.

Grateful if you could expand on the impact of money controls?
Also, grateful if you could add more detail around the LTV rates. How have these changed?

Thanks

Just how many classics are pouring into emerging markets I wonder?

[theadman]

bencollins said:

Just a heads up for Saturday, some lovely stuff, mostly affordable.
http://www.angliacarauctions.co.uk/en/classic-auct...

Thanks for the tip off Ben. Did anyone else go on Saturday?

Firstly, it was mobbed. If anyone thinks the heat has gone out of the market they should have been there. There was no parking on the industrial estate, with cars abandoned wherever there was a car shaped space! ACA ran out of catalogues, having printed 1300 and moving around inside the building was good practice for the tube in rush hour! However, everyone seemed in good humour and enjoying themselves.

So what were the cars like?

There were some gems...and I'm pretty picky, but I'm not sure these were obvious from the website. Here's my personal opinion of a few that stood out for me, but it's not worth much as I didn't buy anything.

The 635CSi was as good as it looked, although the interior was not quite up to the standard of the rest of the car.

The Alfa 105 series GT1300 was not quite what I was expecting. The description mentioned micro blistered paint and it fully lived up to that. However, to me it felt more like something that had been left to its own devices in a garage for too long, rather than being someone's long term cherished possession. I'm sure it is a great basis for a stunning car, but I personally fear what was lurking in all the seam welds and behind the (few) patches of obvious filler.

The C2 Corvette looked up together but cosmetically challenged - again fresh paint would make a big difference.

If anyone wanted a 70's S Class Merc, Kings Lynn was the place to be. Star car for me was the W116 450SEL. If you like your cars original and in fine condition this was the one. It was one of those cars you could easily walk straight past - I did...several times! Then I stopped to look at it and just got sucked straight in. Everywhere you looked it was like new. A real gem.

Next to it was a Series 3 XJ6 that was the same sort of thing, this time with really low mileage. Rather strange being red with red interior, but nice none the less. The estimates were slightly different though...the XJ was almost twice the Merc.

The Marina camper had seen plenty of bodyshops with gently undulating side panels. However, the camper interior had stood the test of time very well.

The blue Camargue was one of very few cars that could not be coaxed to start. This did not really bode well for its chances.

The Fixed Head Elan was an absolute peach and deserved to do well, whilst the 308GTB could best be described as a 'solid', middle of the road car. If it reached its reserve that would have been plenty in my opinion (I had to leave before that happened).

The Mustang 390GT was another fine example - I don't understand the importance of an 'S Code' but it seemed to be a pretty significant part of the car's provenance.

Two of the Italian sourced cars - the DS and the Fiat 130 Coupe were interesting propositions. Both were about as good as you will find bodily. The DS cloth interior had suffered from the Italian sun whilst the Fiat's chrome wasn't at its best. Overall, I could see the appeal of both and with a bit of time and money they could be right up there with the best.

The very low mileage Capri 2.8 Injection was like new, whilst the Brooklands 280 was one of the better ones, slightly let down by its engine bay (on the basis that it was a past show winner).

Not exactly a classic, but the Polo 1.4CL with 29,000 miles was another gem. Quite why it made less than two thirds the money of the Vauxhall Nova Sting I'm not so sure. I know which I'd want my kids to be driving, because both would have made ideal first cars.

There were plenty more interesting cars dotted among the usual condition B and C auction regulars. Prices reached in the first half of the auction seemed quite strong to me, considering the condition of some of the lots. Bidding was generally brisk, although the low mileage Sierra was a bit of a challenge for the auctioneer!

All in all, it was an interesting day and left me feeling that prices for low to mid range classics are still strong. Where things struggled to sell it was more to do with over optimistic reserves than general apathy.

[rovermorris999]

I didn't stay to the end but had a good look round beforehand. The C2 Corvette had some issues, I suspect the birdcage needed work judging by where some of the bodywork cracks were, if so it would need a body-off restoration. The good Mustang was lovely, likewise a series 3 landy that had been done beautifully. The MX5s seem to fetch decent money as well. For those who like BL stuff (I do), the low mileage Rover 820 was lovely, a lot of car for the money if it went on estimate. I look forward to the results online.

Edited by rovermorris999 on Tuesday 26th January 09:15

[johnnym1]

Here's one view- LTV even gets a mention. https://www.hagertyinsurance.co.uk/Articles-and-Re...

[iSore]

DKL said:

There do seem to be a good number of cars that just seem really expensive now for average examples.
The very best of anything will have a different price bracket but these are cars from collections with super low miles. You don't see these out battling the lights in the morning or even out for a blast on a dry Sunday.
I struggle with 25k+ for a solid Cooper S, or 50+ for a 964 or a 400 Ferrari. To me they just aren't worth that much though I might like one. I'd be very afraid of buying at the top of the market.
I wouldn't buy my 944 for what I'd want for it in today's market.
I saw a mini clubman estate for 11k the other day FFS.
However I'm not the market so my thoughts make bugger all difference!

It does seem to price the average person out of the market but someone must be buying them or we wouldn't be where we are.

But here's the thing: If I were seriously minted, I wouldn't be paying £25k for a 'solid'; Cooper S, but £40k+ for a really perfect one. Same with Escorts - I'd pay 50 or 60 grand for a proper RS1600. They would join a host of other stuff - a 512BB, a Bora, the best sixties Mercedes SE Coupe money could buy, as Gullwing.

"How much is that. I like it and want it"

"It's 50 grand"

"I'll have it".


I have long since stopped saying 'HOW fkING MUCH' and instead, lament on the fact I just can't afford it.

.

[Hugh Jarse]

http://www.angliacarauctions.co.uk/en/classic-auct...
The results are in.
Some baffling prices, especially the capri, but whatever tickles your fancy.
The Mondial I was most curious about seems a reasonable bargain at £26k.
The Mini for £950 was a bargain.
E21 baur for £2k
Z3 £1.3k - though the styling of those cars almost makes me angry its so bad.
Someone needs to explain how one XR3 was £1k and the other £14k

Edited by Hugh Jarse on Friday 29th January 16:07

[Lowtimer]

Hugh Jarse said:

Someone needs to explain how one XR3 was £1k and the other £14k

One was an incredibly rare 10,955 mile minter with a staggering history.
The other had no history whatsoever and no-one felt confident enough in the mileage to dare say what it might be.

There, easy.