why no love for beford/vauxhall?
Discussion
I've never worked this out either!
A friend of a friend has an HB Viva 2 door which he has fitted with a Red-Top twin cam and a few other tasteful mods and it is a great car - also looks as good as a MKI Escort IMHO.
I had a 2-litre Cavalier Sportshatch many years ago and it was so much better than the contemporary MKII Capris, plus it had usable back seats!
Some years later I had a MKIII Cavalier SRi that was a far better car than the Sierra Sapphire GLSi it replaced.
And I'd rather have a Firenza DroopSnoot than an RS2000!
I spotted a Bedford CF van recently and remembered they had independent front suspension (unlike the Transit) but they also don't seem to have much of a following.
In later years Monzas, Carltons and Omegas always seemed much better than Granadas but never had the same following.
VX220 and Monaro were also great, but sadly I can't see anything too exciting in their current range.
Still, there are plenty of older ones I would love to own.
A friend of a friend has an HB Viva 2 door which he has fitted with a Red-Top twin cam and a few other tasteful mods and it is a great car - also looks as good as a MKI Escort IMHO.
I had a 2-litre Cavalier Sportshatch many years ago and it was so much better than the contemporary MKII Capris, plus it had usable back seats!
Some years later I had a MKIII Cavalier SRi that was a far better car than the Sierra Sapphire GLSi it replaced.
And I'd rather have a Firenza DroopSnoot than an RS2000!
I spotted a Bedford CF van recently and remembered they had independent front suspension (unlike the Transit) but they also don't seem to have much of a following.
In later years Monzas, Carltons and Omegas always seemed much better than Granadas but never had the same following.
VX220 and Monaro were also great, but sadly I can't see anything too exciting in their current range.
Still, there are plenty of older ones I would love to own.
Chewbacca North said:
which may explain why you never see any these days.
I see one quite regularly, a mate of mine has one of the very few surviving automatic VX4/90 FDs. I do know another chap who has one, but I haven't seen it in the flesh. But certainly a very unusual sight.I think they've been getting better in the classic world recently, partly as I said before because of the Heritage Centre increasing their collection and loaning it out to various magazines and shows. I certainly don't feel quite so outside things at car shows as I used to.
Unfortunately the masses seem to look at the current offerings of a manufacturer and base their view of the older examples in the same vein.
In reality a lot of Vauxhalls older cars were well regarded/received back in the day (period mag tests back this up), it's just not deemed "fashionable" to own a Vauxhall by the badge snobs these days.
Just look at Jaguar for example, back in the 80/90's the dross they were churning out meant that a lot of the early cars could be had very little money as the masses tarred these cars with the same brush. Now JLR seem to have a monster marketing budget and are throwing cash everywhere to promote their latest, vastly improved, offerings and all of a sudden the price of those 50/60's Jags has gone through the roof and are a match for the Italian offerings as people want to be seen in them again.
It's a strange phenomenon but heyho, for one i'm more than happy to say I have a classic griffin on the bonnet
In reality a lot of Vauxhalls older cars were well regarded/received back in the day (period mag tests back this up), it's just not deemed "fashionable" to own a Vauxhall by the badge snobs these days.
Just look at Jaguar for example, back in the 80/90's the dross they were churning out meant that a lot of the early cars could be had very little money as the masses tarred these cars with the same brush. Now JLR seem to have a monster marketing budget and are throwing cash everywhere to promote their latest, vastly improved, offerings and all of a sudden the price of those 50/60's Jags has gone through the roof and are a match for the Italian offerings as people want to be seen in them again.
It's a strange phenomenon but heyho, for one i'm more than happy to say I have a classic griffin on the bonnet
Chewbacca North said:
The FD range is the most beautiful, elegant British car ever. My dad got one brand new in 1968. The front wings had rotted to air within 2 years which may explain why you never see any these days.
Three speed column change and a sporty front bench seat.
347Andy said:
RichB said:
Wacky Racer said:
Three speed column change and a sporty front bench seat.
Three speeds 
Surely not? The only 3 speed car I drove was a Sit-up-and-Beg Ford Popular E93. I assumed all cars had progressed to 4 speeds by the late '60s.They used to be quite good cars but had a terrible reputation for rust, based on the Victor FA.
However, they did lack some inspiration - look at the Viva HA next to an Anglia 105E or an Austin A40 Farina.
The Anglia became the Escort but the Viva HB seemed to jump a class, to compete with the Mk II Cortina, Britain's best-selling car, maybe not a great move.
Vauxhall seemed to have a sizing issue. The Victor/VX4/90/Ventora FB/FC were fairly average cars but were bigger than Cortinas but not as big as the Zephyrs..or didn't seem to be. The Victor FD was reasonable and the FE "Transcontinental not a bad car but it was now up against the very popular Granada - Ford were always one step ahead and the Vauxhall estates were all slantbacks with less capacity.
The Viva HC was bigger than an Escort but not as big as a Cortina III and Ford dictated the size sectors, largely.
I had a Viva HC 1800 and while it handled better than any Cortina, it had a strangled "half-V8" slant 4 with a very notchy gearshift and a crappy cable clutch and clunky foot pedals. The Ford driver interface was better.
Again, Ford dictated the engine sector and 1300,1600 and 2000 were the segments they dictated.
Vauxhall had an odd 1256/1800/2300 and even BL had a 1300 and 1800.
My HC inner front wings rotted away and it eventually died.
Always wanted a Firenza/Magnum 2.3 and drooled over the droopsnoot Firenza. Never much liked Capris which had the "link" to the Mustang whereas most people had never heard of Chevelles and Camaros.
My father had a Firenza 2000SL but sold it and went back to his Cortina 1500GT Mk II which he far preferred.
The Chevette sold well but was RWD and Ford's new Fiesta pulled the rug from under it. One step ahead...
The "Opelisation" was a bad thing, in my view and though better cars, the Cavalier Mk 1 looked awkward and who wanted a Vauxhall Cavalier Coupe when you could have an Opel Manta. I think that was the closest Vauxhall got and the Cavalier Mk II was abetter car than the Sierra, without doubt but Vauxhall failed to capitalise on the crapness of Ford cars of that era and then Ford hit them with the Focus.
However, they did lack some inspiration - look at the Viva HA next to an Anglia 105E or an Austin A40 Farina.
The Anglia became the Escort but the Viva HB seemed to jump a class, to compete with the Mk II Cortina, Britain's best-selling car, maybe not a great move.
Vauxhall seemed to have a sizing issue. The Victor/VX4/90/Ventora FB/FC were fairly average cars but were bigger than Cortinas but not as big as the Zephyrs..or didn't seem to be. The Victor FD was reasonable and the FE "Transcontinental not a bad car but it was now up against the very popular Granada - Ford were always one step ahead and the Vauxhall estates were all slantbacks with less capacity.
The Viva HC was bigger than an Escort but not as big as a Cortina III and Ford dictated the size sectors, largely.
I had a Viva HC 1800 and while it handled better than any Cortina, it had a strangled "half-V8" slant 4 with a very notchy gearshift and a crappy cable clutch and clunky foot pedals. The Ford driver interface was better.
Again, Ford dictated the engine sector and 1300,1600 and 2000 were the segments they dictated.
Vauxhall had an odd 1256/1800/2300 and even BL had a 1300 and 1800.
My HC inner front wings rotted away and it eventually died.
Always wanted a Firenza/Magnum 2.3 and drooled over the droopsnoot Firenza. Never much liked Capris which had the "link" to the Mustang whereas most people had never heard of Chevelles and Camaros.
My father had a Firenza 2000SL but sold it and went back to his Cortina 1500GT Mk II which he far preferred.
The Chevette sold well but was RWD and Ford's new Fiesta pulled the rug from under it. One step ahead...
The "Opelisation" was a bad thing, in my view and though better cars, the Cavalier Mk 1 looked awkward and who wanted a Vauxhall Cavalier Coupe when you could have an Opel Manta. I think that was the closest Vauxhall got and the Cavalier Mk II was abetter car than the Sierra, without doubt but Vauxhall failed to capitalise on the crapness of Ford cars of that era and then Ford hit them with the Focus.
Vauxhall cars lacked the massive funding that Ford gave to its car programs over the years. As many have noted, the HA ewas a turd of a car, boxy rotted out but yet the van version was as tough as old boots easy to fix.
The HB viva handled so much better than a ford, coil sprung all around, but was let down by the engine being weak and then when they started fitting the slant 4 in to viva HC they were heavy and leaked oil every where. Get one and stick a redtop in and they are so much better than an escort.
The Chevette again was a better car than the Ford of the time but unless it is an HS version they are not valued the same as a ford.
Their trucks were also very good, but lacked thought. The TK range just needed a tipping cab for access but they relied on thin mechanics getting just enough room down the side of the front wheel to do work, but they were unburstable in all their versions. The army bought these in their thousands which is the best indication of reliabilty.
The HB viva handled so much better than a ford, coil sprung all around, but was let down by the engine being weak and then when they started fitting the slant 4 in to viva HC they were heavy and leaked oil every where. Get one and stick a redtop in and they are so much better than an escort.
The Chevette again was a better car than the Ford of the time but unless it is an HS version they are not valued the same as a ford.
Their trucks were also very good, but lacked thought. The TK range just needed a tipping cab for access but they relied on thin mechanics getting just enough room down the side of the front wheel to do work, but they were unburstable in all their versions. The army bought these in their thousands which is the best indication of reliabilty.
NotNormal said:
Just look at Jaguar for example, back in the 80/90's the dross they were churning out meant that a lot of the early cars could be had very little money as the masses tarred these cars with the same brush.
I'm sorry, but wtf are you smoking? The Jag's of that era were brilliant cars. And have you not seen the prices of E-Types or their values during the 80's yuppie period?NotNormal said:
Now JLR seem to have a monster marketing budget and are throwing cash everywhere to promote their latest, vastly improved
If anything their current range is now a shadow of it's former self. A range of mostly dull looking frumpy German wannabe's. I admit they seem to be selling, but they bear no resemblance to Jags of yesteryear.NotNormal said:
Unfortunately the masses seem to look at the current offerings of a manufacturer and base their view of the older examples in the same vein.
In reality a lot of Vauxhalls older cars were well regarded/received back in the day (period mag tests back this up), it's just not deemed "fashionable" to own a Vauxhall by the badge snobs these days.
Just look at Jaguar for example, back in the 80/90's the dross they were churning out meant that a lot of the early cars could be had very little money as the masses tarred these cars with the same brush. Now JLR seem to have a monster marketing budget and are throwing cash everywhere to promote their latest, vastly improved, offerings and all of a sudden the price of those 50/60's Jags has gone through the roof and are a match for the Italian offerings as people want to be seen in them again.
It's a strange phenomenon but heyho, for one i'm more than happy to say I have a classic griffin on the bonnet
You haven't picked the best example there. Jaguar produced excellent cars through the '80s and '90s - which were highly regarded by the press and the buyers in their market segment - and sold well. In reality a lot of Vauxhalls older cars were well regarded/received back in the day (period mag tests back this up), it's just not deemed "fashionable" to own a Vauxhall by the badge snobs these days.
Just look at Jaguar for example, back in the 80/90's the dross they were churning out meant that a lot of the early cars could be had very little money as the masses tarred these cars with the same brush. Now JLR seem to have a monster marketing budget and are throwing cash everywhere to promote their latest, vastly improved, offerings and all of a sudden the price of those 50/60's Jags has gone through the roof and are a match for the Italian offerings as people want to be seen in them again.
It's a strange phenomenon but heyho, for one i'm more than happy to say I have a classic griffin on the bonnet
Todays Jaguars are good at what they do, but are a very different product pitched at a different segment of the market. They are relatively much smaller and cheaper cars, generally with 4 cylinder diesel engines aimed at the company mass market. If they didn't sell in vastly greater numbers than their very expensive large six and V12 forbears they would be an abject failure.
Classic Jaguars were amongst the very brightest stars in the 1980s scene - and saw some of the biggest price rises of any car. Pretty much all of the coupes and even some saloons became expensive, some truly so.
But whilst you example is wrong, I actually agree with the thinking behind it - fashion partly is set by a company's current offerings and the way they are seen by the public, whether this is fair or not. Vauxhalls are currently very unfashionable for reasons I can't quite fathom. I do believe this tarnishes their considerable back catalogue of worthy classics no matter how unfair this is.
^Jaguar debate^ - I think you're recalling a different time dimension: the Jaguars of the 80s & 90s I recall might have been elegantly designed of sorts, but were not well regarded in reliability terms & were seen as pastiches of an earlier age. The XJ was well regarded when new in the 70s, but staggered on far too long, the successor XJ40 was not a quality product when measured against it's contemporaries, the XJS has only recently come to be regarded as a classic, & the X & S Types weren't widely regarded at all. The whole company was passed from pillar to post, staggering from chaos to disaster & back again. Car magazine was notorious for shouting about how great some cars were, without having to actually run them for real. The newer cars, the Ian Callum cars, are far better in all respects, finally putting Jaguar back where they were in the 60s.
LuS1fer said:
My HC inner front wings rotted away and it eventually died.
It's a very common thing, I think they'd done that on every HC I've had. Though the HC had full undersealing from new, and had splash guards to protect the section behind the wheel between the outer wing and footwell, I think people who bought them new just thought they didn't have to look after it. Spoke to a previous owner of one of mine, he told me the inner wings were rusting through when he had it, which would have been less than three years old.MarkwG said:
^Jaguar debate^ - I think you're recalling a different time dimension: the Jaguars of the 80s & 90s I recall might have been elegantly designed of sorts, but were not well regarded in reliability terms & were seen as pastiches of an earlier age. The XJ was well regarded when new in the 70s, but staggered on far too long, the successor XJ40 was not a quality product when measured against it's contemporaries, the XJS has only recently come to be regarded as a classic, & the X & S Types weren't widely regarded at all. The whole company was passed from pillar to post, staggering from chaos to disaster & back again. Car magazine was notorious for shouting about how great some cars were, without having to actually run them for real. The newer cars, the Ian Callum cars, are far better in all respects, finally putting Jaguar back where they were in the 60s.
I think we obviously disagree. But I'm not sure your views are actually agreed with the wider motoring media or general public either. Maybe you could provide some evidence to your claims? The Car magazine cover posted above is certainly at odds with what you are suggesting.Oh and your last statement, nope couldn't be further from the truth. JLR might be successful at the moment, but both companies are million miles away from the kinds of products and market segment they used to be in, 50's, 60's or whenever.
Don't confuse success being something it isn't.
300bhp/ton said:
I think we obviously disagree. But I'm not sure your views are actually agreed with the wider motoring media or general public either. Maybe you could provide some evidence to your claims? The Car magazine cover posted above is certainly at odds with what you are suggesting.
Oh and your last statement, nope couldn't be further from the truth. JLR might be successful at the moment, but both companies are million miles away from the kinds of products and market segment they used to be in, 50's, 60's or whenever.
Don't confuse success being something it isn't.
Magazines of that era were well known for vaunting British products. Oh and your last statement, nope couldn't be further from the truth. JLR might be successful at the moment, but both companies are million miles away from the kinds of products and market segment they used to be in, 50's, 60's or whenever.
Don't confuse success being something it isn't.
At one time, the Metro was apparently the greatest thing since sliced bread (it wasn't) but not until the end of the Rover 100 when they linked the hydrolastic differently was it a reasonable product.
The Maestro and Montego were bigged up and, sure, the EFi versions were OK but they were no Golf/Jetta GTI. I test drove Maestro 2.0 EFi and had great difficulty reconciling what it was with the road test conclusions.
The Honda-based products were better and maybe that 416 GSi really was better than the 3 series, briefly, but it didn't last.
I don't blame the UK rags giving the nod to some BL products where the difference was not great but I sure as hell never bought any of the cars based on their conclusions.
In addition, I knew someone who had an early XJ40 and it rusted to hell and back. the 2'9s never got a very good press either although the larger engined variant fared OK but then didn't they have that Nikasil and other mechanical issues and the inboard brakes were always a pain. Overall, Jags in the 80s had the same quality issues they always had under BL.
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