Technology on modern cars
Discussion
In older cars the regular servicing would identify when parts were in danger of failing. For example, play in the wheel bearings, a noisy alternator, etc. However, the electronics on modern vehicles fail in an instant and unpredictable manner, as my wife found out with the VANOS sensor on her BMW last weekend, leaving her stranded for 2 hours in a car park.
If every electronic component has a reliability factor of less than 100%, which, of course, it will, then the overall reliability will be that percentage multiplied by itself for each critical sensor or electronic unit.
This may be no problem whilst he car is under, say, 7 years old, but after that when failures occur they will be very expensive, rendering the car undesirable to own which, presumably, is exactly what the makers want.
The industry will say that it is to improve the mpg and emissions, but there can be little doubt that an owner would sacrifice 5 mpg or so for better overall reliability.
I think when my correct BMW starts to get a bit 'iffy' in the electronics areas, I shall buy another 2000-ish BMW E46 with the beautiful straight-six engine. I had one for 5 years and the only problem was a camshaft sensor and a radiator, plus a front suspension arm. All easy and cheap stuff. The guy who bought it from me ran it round to just under 200,000 miles with no real issues.
What mileages do manufacturers engineer their cars to do as a nominal figure before scrappage?
If every electronic component has a reliability factor of less than 100%, which, of course, it will, then the overall reliability will be that percentage multiplied by itself for each critical sensor or electronic unit.
This may be no problem whilst he car is under, say, 7 years old, but after that when failures occur they will be very expensive, rendering the car undesirable to own which, presumably, is exactly what the makers want.
The industry will say that it is to improve the mpg and emissions, but there can be little doubt that an owner would sacrifice 5 mpg or so for better overall reliability.
I think when my correct BMW starts to get a bit 'iffy' in the electronics areas, I shall buy another 2000-ish BMW E46 with the beautiful straight-six engine. I had one for 5 years and the only problem was a camshaft sensor and a radiator, plus a front suspension arm. All easy and cheap stuff. The guy who bought it from me ran it round to just under 200,000 miles with no real issues.
What mileages do manufacturers engineer their cars to do as a nominal figure before scrappage?
cymtriks said:
Peanuts.
Extra gadgets and minor mechanical bits add virtually nothing to the cost to build a car.
Even swapping a small engine for a big one adds way less than you'd think.
The most expensive thing, in mass production, is actually to provide options!
A quality single row/simplex chain can last 300'000 miles. Some Duplex chains such as old V8 Mercs could be shagged by 60'000 - a duplex chain is much heavier and a long one such as a V8 is a lot of weight to haul around. It's all down to the design, quality and lubrication, but a good single row chain is fine.Extra gadgets and minor mechanical bits add virtually nothing to the cost to build a car.
Even swapping a small engine for a big one adds way less than you'd think.
The most expensive thing, in mass production, is actually to provide options!
bearman68 said:
angels95 said:
crankedup said:
The mention of perfectly good cars written off due to electronic faults that cannot be fixed is of concern. Family member purchased a four year old car from dealer. Its been off road for six months whilst the electronic fault is fixed. Meanwhile dealer is suppling a loan car.
This is definitely the way things are going. Already starting to see it on cars like '04-ish Scenics with problems such as electronic parking brake failure and digital dash needing replacement. These issues cost more to put right than the car is worth, hence why they just get scrapped or stripped for parts instead!Think I'll stick to driving around in my old banger!
(And at reasonable cost)iSore said:
V8 Fettler said:
You're confusing longevity of one particular component with the overall sustainability of the vehicle. What dates were the Merc engines manufactured? It's still possible to rebuild an early Series 1 Land Rover (late 1940s).
No I'm not. The W123 (and no, I don't own one, nor an I a fanboi) arrived over 40 years ago. They are tough, fixable with massive parts supply. And unlike a Land Rover, are pleasant to drive and very useable even now. I'm guessing that's why there are still thousands of them in far flung parts of the world where the Land Cruiser took over from the Landie.Oh, and Mercedes will sell you parts for cars they made before WWII.
V8 Fettler said:
Mid-1970s then, relatively new. Comfort and usability are irrelevant to sustainability, although which is more usable in snow or mud? How can you rely on the original manufacturer if you're in the middle of nowhere? Series Land Rovers were designed to be fixed by farmers, unlike any other mass production vehicle e.g. W123.
Land Rovers need fixing often, hence why Toyota and Nissan moved in and cleaned up. Judging by the sheer number of W123's in the middle east/Africa etc, they're a long way from a franchised main dealer. Strong, reliable, easy to fix.grumpy52 said:
bearman68 said:
angels95 said:
crankedup said:
The mention of perfectly good cars written off due to electronic faults that cannot be fixed is of concern. Family member purchased a four year old car from dealer. Its been off road for six months whilst the electronic fault is fixed. Meanwhile dealer is suppling a loan car.
This is definitely the way things are going. Already starting to see it on cars like '04-ish Scenics with problems such as electronic parking brake failure and digital dash needing replacement. These issues cost more to put right than the car is worth, hence why they just get scrapped or stripped for parts instead!Think I'll stick to driving around in my old banger!
(And at reasonable cost)TooMany2cvs said:
crankedup said:
Ken555 said:
Caution Disk Brakes
Cooperman said:
In older cars the regular servicing would identify when parts were in danger of failing. For example, play in the wheel bearings, a noisy alternator, etc. However, the electronics on modern vehicles fail in an instant and unpredictable manner, as my wife found out with the VANOS sensor on her BMW last weekend, leaving her stranded for 2 hours in a car park.
If every electronic component has a reliability factor of less than 100%, which, of course, it will, then the overall reliability will be that percentage multiplied by itself for each critical sensor or electronic unit.
This may be no problem whilst he car is under, say, 7 years old, but after that when failures occur they will be very expensive, rendering the car undesirable to own which, presumably, is exactly what the makers want.
The industry will say that it is to improve the mpg and emissions, but there can be little doubt that an owner would sacrifice 5 mpg or so for better overall reliability.
I think when my correct BMW starts to get a bit 'iffy' in the electronics areas, I shall buy another 2000-ish BMW E46 with the beautiful straight-six engine. I had one for 5 years and the only problem was a camshaft sensor and a radiator, plus a front suspension arm. All easy and cheap stuff. The guy who bought it from me ran it round to just under 200,000 miles with no real issues.
What mileages do manufacturers engineer their cars to do as a nominal figure before scrappage?
You have to add the fact that things like ECUs are doing all they can to compensate for deteriorating parts (e.g. balancing injector flows, dealing with implausible sensor readings), so when something fails, it might appear to fail suddenly because the car has been doing its best to work around it. In theory the "regular servicing" would involve reading the stored errors and doing some preventative maintenance, but I jest of course. If every electronic component has a reliability factor of less than 100%, which, of course, it will, then the overall reliability will be that percentage multiplied by itself for each critical sensor or electronic unit.
This may be no problem whilst he car is under, say, 7 years old, but after that when failures occur they will be very expensive, rendering the car undesirable to own which, presumably, is exactly what the makers want.
The industry will say that it is to improve the mpg and emissions, but there can be little doubt that an owner would sacrifice 5 mpg or so for better overall reliability.
I think when my correct BMW starts to get a bit 'iffy' in the electronics areas, I shall buy another 2000-ish BMW E46 with the beautiful straight-six engine. I had one for 5 years and the only problem was a camshaft sensor and a radiator, plus a front suspension arm. All easy and cheap stuff. The guy who bought it from me ran it round to just under 200,000 miles with no real issues.
What mileages do manufacturers engineer their cars to do as a nominal figure before scrappage?
iSore said:
V8 Fettler said:
Mid-1970s then, relatively new. Comfort and usability are irrelevant to sustainability, although which is more usable in snow or mud? How can you rely on the original manufacturer if you're in the middle of nowhere? Series Land Rovers were designed to be fixed by farmers, unlike any other mass production vehicle e.g. W123.
Land Rovers need fixing often, hence why Toyota and Nissan moved in and cleaned up. Judging by the sheer number of W123's in the middle east/Africa etc, they're a long way from a franchised main dealer. Strong, reliable, easy to fix.Telegraph said:
Not long ago Land Rover claimed 75 per cent of the vehicles it had ever sold were still on the road; and, staggeringly, it has been rolling them out since 1948. No wonder Landy drivers call mere cars "disposables". So here's my tip for conserving the planet - save an old Land Rover.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/classiccars/7505768/Classic-Land-Rover.htmlMind boggling how complex modern cars have become. Even my fleet of cars from the 80's and early 90's are way more complex than I'm comfortable with... and most of it useless from my perspective. I grudgingly accept ABS.. but traction control modes, suspension modes, self driving and parking... b
ks to it all. just take a train if you don't want to drive.
ks to it all. just take a train if you don't want to drive.iSore said:
A quality single row/simplex chain can last 300'000 miles. Some Duplex chains such as old V8 Mercs could be shagged by 60'000 - a duplex chain is much heavier and a long one such as a V8 is a lot of weight to haul around. It's all down to the design, quality and lubrication, but a good single row chain is fine.
Is that why I have only managed 500,000 on the last two Mercedes with no chain problems, and 120,000 with the E-type as well?jackpe said:
Mind boggling how complex modern cars have become. Even my fleet of cars from the 80's and early 90's are way more complex than I'm comfortable with... and most of it useless from my perspective. I grudgingly accept ABS.. but traction control modes, suspension modes, self driving and parking... bks to it all. just take a train if you don't want to drive.
It's going to become a horror show. My X5 has so many sensors and accompanying boings that half the time I don't know what I've done wrong and what hasn't closed properly. ks to it all. just take a train if you don't want to drive.I'm sure it makes it super safe but it has a safety mechanism that won't allow you to drive or move the car with the door open.
In theory this isn't a terrible idea, from a safety perspective (especially if you're called Brian Harvey0 but if that sensor ever fails, you'll have a car that works perfectly fine, apart from that sensor and the car will not move more than two inches.
My last one had a slight electrical niggle and so the local dealer did the equivalent of turning it off and on again....he needed the car overnight to perform a reboot, which fixed the problem but was highly annoying and a right royal pain, just to fix an intermittent niggle.
Technology on modern cars means the end of garages, taxi drivers, and roadside mechanics within 20-40 years.
Driverless cars will make accidents a thing of the past.
Cars are computers on wheels that will be repaired over-the-air by remote software.
And electric vehicles have far fewer moving parts that breakdown less.
Driverless cars will make accidents a thing of the past.
Cars are computers on wheels that will be repaired over-the-air by remote software.
And electric vehicles have far fewer moving parts that breakdown less.
Yipper said:
Technology on modern cars means the end of garages, taxi drivers, and roadside mechanics within 20-40 years.
Driverless cars will make accidents a thing of the past.
Cars are computers on wheels that will be repaired over-the-air by remote software.
And electric vehicles have far fewer moving parts that breakdown less.
Will nothing wear out or physically break on these 'cars' of yours?Driverless cars will make accidents a thing of the past.
Cars are computers on wheels that will be repaired over-the-air by remote software.
And electric vehicles have far fewer moving parts that breakdown less.
Yipper said:
Technology on modern cars means the end of garages, taxi drivers, and roadside mechanics within 20-40 years.
Driverless cars will make accidents a thing of the past.
Cars are computers on wheels that will be repaired over-the-air by remote software.
And electric vehicles have far fewer moving parts that breakdown less.
Driverless cars will make accidents a thing of the past.
Cars are computers on wheels that will be repaired over-the-air by remote software.
And electric vehicles have far fewer moving parts that breakdown less.
They will still get wet, and get corroded connections, and wear the tyres out, and shag the wheel bearings. Anf the internet connection won't work, and someone will bump it, or hit it with a hammer,
Can't ever see a day where all these things won't require some human intervention.
bearman68 said:
Yipper said:
Technology on modern cars means the end of garages, taxi drivers, and roadside mechanics within 20-40 years.
Driverless cars will make accidents a thing of the past.
Cars are computers on wheels that will be repaired over-the-air by remote software.
And electric vehicles have far fewer moving parts that breakdown less.
Driverless cars will make accidents a thing of the past.
Cars are computers on wheels that will be repaired over-the-air by remote software.
And electric vehicles have far fewer moving parts that breakdown less.
They will still get wet, and get corroded connections, and wear the tyres out, and shag the wheel bearings. Anf the internet connection won't work, and someone will bump it, or hit it with a hammer,
Can't ever see a day where all these things won't require some human intervention.
Every so often a car breaks. It's swapped out of service, returned to the depot (or drives itself there when its onboard condition monitors are predicting an imminent failure, or it's been vandalised, or someone threw up in it, or...) and has the relevant part(s) swapped out by the OEM's fitter. It's dumped back into service asap because if it's not moving, it's not earning.
The extracted, failed parts are returned for remanufacturing by first and second tier value chain members under the OEM, in turn, offering their "navitronics" or "seating" functionality through their own servitised layers through a circular economy in these various vehicle parts. Nothing is repaired. That skill is lost.
So, no more mechanics of any kind, anywhere. And no ownership of anything, apart from the pension funds funding the branded, consumer-facing service providers, who rent the cars from the OEMs.
Layer upon layer of servitisation.
And when it crashes, and kills someone. You try unpicking that lot.
Forgot to mention the smart city data provider who's offering a service matching vehicle locations with traffic info with punter location data and reselling that to the branded service provided as well.
Oh, and the asset tracker, who's using the RFID chip embedded in every part to track which vehicles (read: service life applications) it's been installed in and the operating hours and conditions it's experienced. That's needed for identifying end of life and the various lawsuits.
These cars will be proverbial Ships of Theseus...
Fun times!
Edited by dxg on Monday 23 January 22:01
dxg said:
bearman68 said:
Yipper said:
Technology on modern cars means the end of garages, taxi drivers, and roadside mechanics within 20-40 years.
Driverless cars will make accidents a thing of the past.
Cars are computers on wheels that will be repaired over-the-air by remote software.
And electric vehicles have far fewer moving parts that breakdown less.
Driverless cars will make accidents a thing of the past.
Cars are computers on wheels that will be repaired over-the-air by remote software.
And electric vehicles have far fewer moving parts that breakdown less.
They will still get wet, and get corroded connections, and wear the tyres out, and shag the wheel bearings. Anf the internet connection won't work, and someone will bump it, or hit it with a hammer,
Can't ever see a day where all these things won't require some human intervention.
Every so often a car breaks. It's swapped out of service, returned to the depot (or drives itself there when its onboard condition monitors are predicting an imminent failure, or it's been vandalised, or someone threw up in it, or...) and has the relevant part(s) swapped out by the OEM's fitter. It's dumped back into service asap because if it's not moving, it's not earning.
The extracted, failed parts are returned for remanufacturing by first and second tier value chain members under the OEM, in turn, offering their "navitronics" or "seating" functionality through their own servitised layers through a circular economy in these various vehicle parts. Nothing is repaired. That skill is lost.
So, no more mechanics of any kind, anywhere. And no ownership of anything, apart from the pension funds funding the branded, consumer-facing service providers, who rent the cars from the OEMs.
Layer upon layer of servitisation.
And when it crashes, and kills someone. You try unpicking that lot.
Forgot to mention the smart city data provider who's offering a service matching vehicle locations with traffic info with punter location data and reselling that to the branded service provided as well.
Oh, and the asset tracker, who's using the RFID chip embedded in every part to track which vehicles (read: service life applications) it's been installed in and the operating hours and conditions it's experienced. That's needed for identifying end of life and the various lawsuits.
These cars will be proverbial Ships of Theseus...
Fun times!
Edited by dxg on Monday 23 January 22:01
What a bloody depressing post!
J
It's more or less the "grand vision" that lots of people are working towards right.
The Smart City stuff has been underway for several years.
Servitisation is well established in many sectors, in everything from photocopies to aircraft engines.
It's happening right now in the PRS housing sector - driven directly by current policy
The only people who really benefit from are the institutional investors who fund the owners of the assets and the supporting data infrastructure.
The only things missing are a clear picture of the service layer interactions from a liability point of view. And the autonomous driving.
I see personal car ownership becoming a hobby of the few in 20 years or so. And I hate the thought of that.
The Smart City stuff has been underway for several years.
Servitisation is well established in many sectors, in everything from photocopies to aircraft engines.
It's happening right now in the PRS housing sector - driven directly by current policy
The only people who really benefit from are the institutional investors who fund the owners of the assets and the supporting data infrastructure.
The only things missing are a clear picture of the service layer interactions from a liability point of view. And the autonomous driving.
I see personal car ownership becoming a hobby of the few in 20 years or so. And I hate the thought of that.
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