1952 "droop snoot" C type

[RichB]

Thanks for the full answer Lowdrag, for my Aston Turrions are £700 vs. £960 each for the Borranis (inc. VAT) but this still works out at over a grand more for the set of four. MPH Borranis are readily available now, Longstone Tyres are the distributors for the UK whilst Turrinos are made in the UK.

http://www.wirewheels.co.uk/turrino.htm

http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/

[lowdrag]

With the mechanical side almost finished, the arduous work on the buck has now started. Here they are using a real C type to use as a former for the rear wing:-

[a8hex]

lowdrag said:

With the mechanical side almost finished, the arduous work on the buck has now started. Here they are using a real C type to use as a former for the rear wing:-

Funny the sort of tools some people have lying around their workshops.

[Le Mans Visitor]

lookin good Tony, we need more progress pictures!

[Gnostic Ascent]

Lowdrag you have probably answered this question elsewhere but i am interested to know why you have gone to the trouble of building your own C-Type rather than directing a build by Lynx or TWR or Heritage or......

I am guessing from your replies to other posts (you are an incredible officianado of the Jaguar mark) that you are after a vehicle that is identical to an original C-type in all ways.

[lowdrag]

Gnostic Ascent said:

Lowdrag you have probably answered this question elsewhere but i am interested to know why you have gone to the trouble of building your own C-Type rather than directing a build by Lynx or TWR or Heritage or......

I am guessing from your replies to other posts (you are an incredible officianado of the Jaguar mark) that you are after a vehicle that is identical to an original C-type in all ways.

To start from the beginning of your post Lynx haven't existed for nearly two years now and their build costs were extortionate and the cars are nowhere near correct. Their last XKSS was sold for £260,000 I believe and a Lnyx C is about £100,000 if you can find one (only five made). TWR, Heritage build "replicas" in the loosest sense; they use a Mk 2 rear axle which is 4 ins wider than a C type, they use a synchro box, they don't use the correct chassis or engine, in fact they are more correctly termed a pastiche in my humble opinion. Most are in plastic too. The final thing is for me their choice of carburettors which really explains their ethos; three Weber 45DCOE cost £1,000 but three correct 40DCO3 cost £7,500. From a distance the main manufacturers of C types cars look like a C type, but get close and they are completely wrong. It is like comparing a fake Rolex to a real one; the second hand sweeps on a real one and ticks on the quartz replicas.

As a Jaguar fanatic and journalist I have been involved with the marque in one way or another for thirty years yet I only really got to know about this car 10 years back, so little is there known about it. Now there are two Jaguars that don't exist in one form or another, real or replica; the 1952 C type and E1A, the first transitional prototype between the D and the E type. E1A would be an impossible project really since so little is known about it although a few bits were found in a scrapyard about 10 years back, but not enough to really understand the construction method of the car. So I took the decision that this car should exist and sold one of my Lynx D types to fund the project. We are at great pains to ensure that this car will be a clone of the original, not a replica, even down to sourcing the correct material for the seat covers - it isn't leather as you might think. I have five years of my time invested in the project so far including visits to the JDHT archives and internet searches for photos and so on. I am a bit stuck for 1952 air to pump up the tyres and the original tyres style (Dunlop Stabila) hasn't been made for over 50 years so in that respect it can't be original, but the chassis and all other parts will make this a correct C type and we shall be applying for FIA papers so it can race.

The reason? Well, the original car was hurriedly built for Le Mans and it raced once and once only before being scrapped. I have already asked Petersport if it can be accepted for the 2010 Le Mans Classic so that it can once again be seen on holy ground, the only place it was ever seen. I don't expect their answer for a year at least since they have this year's race to get out of the way first but I live in hope. I hope the car will give pleasure to a lot of people while not expecting it to win anything but that isn't the point of the whole thing. I guess you can call it my Mount Everest - because it was there.

Perhaps many might consider me daft and with good reason perhaps but to hell with it, we pass this way but once don't we? Hope this answers you as you would wish.

Edited by lowdrag on Friday 30th May 16:51

[RichB]

lowdrag said:

I am a bit stuck for 1952 air to pump up the tyres...

That's easy, fill up your pump down in the Norther Line, the air down there feels like it's certainly been around for at least 50 years!

[a8hex]

lowdrag said:

I hope the car will give pleasure to a lot of people while not expecting it to win anything but that isn't the point of the whole thing. I guess you can call it my Mount Everest - because it was there.

Well Lowdrag, I think it's already doing that.
I know quite a few people here are always eagerly waiting the next instalment and pictures of the project. Also when I talked to CKL his eyes lit up, I got the impression he was nearly as excited by the project as you are. I got the impression he's really looking forward to the challenge of doing what Jaguar failed to do all those years ago. He's looking forward to making it work.

Incidentally I found out the other day that the lowdrag body had at least one other outing. It was tried on XKC012 at Jabbeke on the 30th March 1953. At least the bonnet did, I don't think the they used the extended tail.

Thanks for taking such a project on.

[Gnostic Ascent]

Thank you for your detailed reply to my "ignorant" post.

I am impressed with your drive and determination to undertake your project. I hope that the finished car exceeds your expectations as that is only fair having put so much time and effort into the project.

I guess the basic difference is between people like myself who would be happy with a TWR or a Heritage replica (but it would have to have a metal body for me) and understand that there are significant compromises in its build. Such as the rear axle width. Then there are people like yourself with a different view who wants to do something special and historically accurate not just for themselves but for the history of the marque itself.

Like the rest of the forum I am enjoying your posts and updates on the project immensely.

[a8hex]

Gnostic Ascent said:

(but it would have to have a metal body for me)

Jaguar actually built a Fibreglass D type back in period. But just the 1.

[jagman21]

a8hex said:

Gnostic Ascent said:

(but it would have to have a metal body for me)

Jaguar actually built a Fibreglass D type back in period. But just the 1.

glad someone else knows about this, i remember seeing it in Jaguar world magazine, being put in a truck to be restored, just bare chassis absolutely no components,

what happened to it, unlike metal fibreglass distorts quite heavily with age and miosture, or lack of it, the resoration will be an ardous task. May thats why we havent seen it for ages.

Anyway, what the history of this car, did it race? as all dtypes were intended, was it experimental. Did it win anything.
and was it any lighter then the conventional dtypes, and was it structurally sound? Surely using a monocoque designed to be built using aluminium must react to driving forces completely differently when buily using a completely new material?

[a8hex]

jagman21 said:

a8hex said:

Gnostic Ascent said:

(but it would have to have a metal body for me)

Jaguar actually built a Fibreglass D type back in period. But just the 1.

glad someone else knows about this, i remember seeing it in Jaguar world magazine, being put in a truck to be restored, just bare chassis absolutely no components,

what happened to it, unlike metal fibreglass distorts quite heavily with age and miosture, or lack of it, the resoration will be an ardous task. May thats why we havent seen it for ages.

Anyway, what the history of this car, did it race? as all dtypes were intended, was it experimental. Did it win anything.
and was it any lighter then the conventional dtypes, and was it structurally sound? Surely using a monocoque designed to be built using aluminium must react to driving forces completely differently when buily using a completely new material?

I've just been reading "Developing the Legend" The Biography of Norman Dewis, which is how I came across the story of the Fibreglass D.
It was a development car. They made only 1, it didn't work out to well Norman describes hearing it starting to crack at speed. Not something I've enjoy I don't think.

[jagman21]

so whats it fate/history?

[a8hex]

jagman21 said:

so whats it fate/history?

There's not much to tell. There's only a few inches on it in the book.
The car was built using production D-Type components including engine and frames, it was built as an experiment into making the cars lighter. In used steel plates moulded into the GRP tub to bolt the frames on to.
Apparently the car was retained on the experimental fleet for a few years. Was lent out to MIRA in 1958 for some tests. Then at some point whilst Norman was driving the car at MIRA the fibre glass around the plates all cracked.
Norman thinks the tub was sent up to the factory that was making the SP250 bodies.
The factory records show the car as scrapped.
The book includes a picture of what looks like an XKSS body with the caption asking whether this was related to the GRP D-Type. This body apparently included some parts from XKD544.

Now the chassis number XKD544 through up more information.

http://www.wspr-racing.com/chassis/Dtype.htm

It seems to have passed though Lynx at some point.

Perhaps Lowdrag knows more of the history.

[lowdrag]

Here I quote Paul Skilleter on XKD 544. Incidentally, I have a personal loathing of the reference quoted above for C & D type history since it was lifted straight from Philip Porter's Sports Racing Car book and yet they give no credit on their site. Here goes:-

Sometimes a genuine frame appears that comes from a car never sold by Jaguar as a legal entity. One such in circulation is XKD 544, commonly known as the 'glass fibre D-type'. I personally am convinced (though absolute proof has yet to emerge) that this frame and other D-type parts were used by Jaguar's experimental department to produce an experimental glass fibre monocoque XK-SS. Minus its engine, the car in this form appears to have left the factory in the late 1950s or very early 1960s, but not under cover of an official invoice. In the 1970s the frame and other parts were built into a conventional production D-type and it has been successfully raced with FIA papers ever since.
In my opinion this car is a 'proper' D-type, having an unchallenged number, incorporates the original chassis frame and, so far as I am aware, has a continuous history as that car. However (and this element is not mere opinion), its provenance must also include the fact that it was never provenly sold as a legal entity by Jaguar Cars Ltd, which thus still technically owns the motor car identity XKD 544 - if it exists. Indeed this has been reflected in its price whenever it has changed hands, as it usually fetches some 20 - 25 per cent less than would be realised by a conventional production D-type. This is a perfectly satisfactory situation as the circumstances are appreciated by everyone.
Buried treasure

Edited by lowdrag on Friday 6th June 07:31

[a8hex]

Thanks for those details.

I didn't know about that site ripping off Philip. I came across the site sometime ago googling a chassis number. It would explain why the details are all so out of date.

[jagman21]

lowdrag said:

Here I quote Paul Skilleter on XKD 544. Incidentally, I have a personal loathing of the reference quoted above for C & D type history since it was lifted straight from Philip Porter's Sports Racing Car book and yet they give no credit on their site. Here goes:-

Sometimes a genuine frame appears that comes from a car never sold by Jaguar as a legal entity. One such in circulation is XKD 544, commonly known as the 'glass fibre D-type'. I personally am convinced (though absolute proof has yet to emerge) that this frame and other D-type parts were used by Jaguar's experimental department to produce an experimental glass fibre monocoque XK-SS. Minus its engine, the car in this form appears to have left the factory in the late 1950s or very early 1960s, but not under cover of an official invoice. In the 1970s the frame and other parts were built into a conventional production D-type and it has been successfully raced with FIA papers ever since.
In my opinion this car is a 'proper' D-type, having an unchallenged number, incorporates the original chassis frame and, so far as I am aware, has a continuous history as that car. However (and this element is not mere opinion), its provenance must also include the fact that it was never provenly sold as a legal entity by Jaguar Cars Ltd, which thus still technically owns the motor car identity XKD 544 - if it exists. Indeed this has been reflected in its price whenever it has changed hands, as it usually fetches some 20 - 25 per cent less than would be realised by a conventional production D-type. This is a perfectly satisfactory situation as the circumstances are appreciated by everyone.
Buried treasure

Edited by lowdrag on Friday 6th June 07:31

so let me get this straight, XKD 544 is currently a conventional aluminium d type? ok but the glass fibre monocoque existes and i believe is currently in restoration. so which will be the really one when the glassfibre model reappears??

[lowdrag]

Here we go again! One part of a car here, one there, another somewhere else and then we have three cars with the same chassis number. Since the original car was never sold by Jaguar there will always be some doubts over its credibility as is reflected in the price but IMHO the glass fibre body CAN NEVER BE a real D type on a correct chassis. The construction of a D type is half monocoque and half chassis unlike an E type which is all monocoque and completely different to a C type which was full chassis. They must have severely modified and strengthened the original if it had a full glass fibre monocoque or else the car would have simply fallen to pieces. More likely part of the car was alloy and part glass. After all these years it is most unlikely that the new car would ever be considered the "real" XKD 544 becausae the other car has gained credence. Anyway, I'd love to know why you think the original glass fibre hull exists since according tom my records it was destroyed in the 1950's.Did you read it somewhere? I am intrigued.

[a8hex]

jagman21 said:

lowdrag said:

Here I quote Paul Skilleter on XKD 544. Incidentally, I have a personal loathing of the reference quoted above for C & D type history since it was lifted straight from Philip Porter's Sports Racing Car book and yet they give no credit on their site. Here goes:-

Sometimes a genuine frame appears that comes from a car never sold by Jaguar as a legal entity. One such in circulation is XKD 544, commonly known as the 'glass fibre D-type'. I personally am convinced (though absolute proof has yet to emerge) that this frame and other D-type parts were used by Jaguar's experimental department to produce an experimental glass fibre monocoque XK-SS. Minus its engine, the car in this form appears to have left the factory in the late 1950s or very early 1960s, but not under cover of an official invoice. In the 1970s the frame and other parts were built into a conventional production D-type and it has been successfully raced with FIA papers ever since.
In my opinion this car is a 'proper' D-type, having an unchallenged number, incorporates the original chassis frame and, so far as I am aware, has a continuous history as that car. However (and this element is not mere opinion), its provenance must also include the fact that it was never provenly sold as a legal entity by Jaguar Cars Ltd, which thus still technically owns the motor car identity XKD 544 - if it exists. Indeed this has been reflected in its price whenever it has changed hands, as it usually fetches some 20 - 25 per cent less than would be realised by a conventional production D-type. This is a perfectly satisfactory situation as the circumstances are appreciated by everyone.
Buried treasure

Edited by lowdrag on Friday 6th June 07:31

so let me get this straight, XKD 544 is currently a conventional aluminium d type? ok but the glass fibre monocoque existes and i believe is currently in restoration. so which will be the really one when the glassfibre model reappears??

Both of them.
It will depend on which owner you ask.

Normally with Jaguars it's the considered to be the one who own the bit of the chassis where the factory stamped their number and just to make life a little more fun a lot had the number stamped on twice.
I'm not sure whether it's still the case but there have been times when there been more "real" D-Types in the world than Jaguar ever made. And that is discounting the ones that are clearly fakes. Cs and Ds were race cars. Bits were for ever being taken of and put back on. They were raced, they were crashed, they were rebuilt and they were constantly being modified. In 1958 you could but a C-type for less than an XK120, much less than a 140 and 150s were of course new, so all sorts of stuff will have been done to them. Back in period they probably used new parts from the factory to rebuild them. When that was no longer available. They got other people to make replacement parts. I don't know what happened during the late 80s boom. But this time around owners are going to extraordinary lengths to try and return cars back to as near to original state as they can. In various cases it looks like people never threw away smashed up old pieces. Last year Octane had the ex Jim Clark D-Type on the cover. It had had a major smash back in the 50s. The original bonnet has been knocking around all the time, what was not economically repairable then has becomes so now. So it's been put back together.
In the case of XKD544 things are probably even more complicated. It was a factory car. It belonged to the experimental dept. It could quite likely have had major components replaces several times in a week. It probably started life as a ali car. The aluminium body was then removed and the fibreglass one fitted. The Fibreglass one got messed about with, it starts off being described as being a D type, the photo of the body later on show something that looks like an XKSS, but then XKD555 started as a D and became XKD701, the first SS. With a D of course there isn't a single chassis unlike with a C so saying for sure that which single piece is the most deserving of the title XKD544 is probably not possible. I'm sure as hell not qualified to even start to guess, Like you I'm just an interested observer.

I can't remember where I read this, but at some event the owner of an original C-type was asked who's kit his one was. To which he replied, oh this kit, it's was one of Jaguar's, but he wasn't disputing the "kit" bit.

[a8hex]

lowdrag said:

Here we go again! One part of a car here, one there, another somewhere else and then we have three cars with the same chassis number. Since the original car was never sold by Jaguar there will always be some doubts over its credibility as is reflected in the price but IMHO the glass fibre body CAN NEVER BE a real D type on a correct chassis. The construction of a D type is half monocoque and half chassis unlike an E type which is all monocoque and completely different to a C type which was full chassis. They must have severely modified and strengthened the original if it had a full glass fibre monocoque or else the car would have simply fallen to pieces. More likely part of the car was alloy and part glass. After all these years it is most unlikely that the new car would ever be considered the "real" XKD 544 becausae the other car has gained credence. Anyway, I'd love to know why you think the original glass fibre hull exists since according tom my records it was destroyed in the 1950's.Did you read it somewhere? I am intrigued.

The text under the picture in the Norman Dewis book states that some of the parks of XKD544 were on the fibreglass XKSS like body in the picture.

As to the construction, it's described as having had steel plates sandwiched in the GRP for the frames to be bolted to. It was very much an experimental vehicle. It was tried as a method of construction and it didn't work. You win some you loose some. This time they lost, it cracked up on the track.