London's DIY Garage
Discussion
veryoldfart said:
Health and Safety will close it down or insist every user goes on a NVQ and/or BTEc course for 6 months before stepping foot (in STCs of course) into the place.
Nice joke. I applaud such enterprises which allow the people who can't afford to send their cars to a garage for service and who wish to do it themselves, with the proper equipment and proper ramps and all. Frankly, it is better that they do their servicing there than try and do it in the freezing cold on their drives. As regards insurance, I am sure that this has already been well thought through and that there is no problem. Will the work be well carried out? Well, some so called "professionals" do a lot worse, as evidenced by various companies I have written about over the years. For example, I went through a wad of bills for one person and he had been charged for 5 kilos of filler for his car during the restoration! No, as long as the people think they are proficient and can afterwards drive their cars in complete confidence, I see no problem. The classic car world embraces those with fantastic cars at millions of pounds to those with Cortinas or Vivas or who knows what. Those higher up can pay thousands (I've seen the bills) to service their cars but those lower down are really those who preserve the heritage of our marques and they do it themselves. I'm not saying that all garages are robbers and do bad work - far from it. What I am saying is that to keep the movement alive some people need such facilities as this.RW774 said:
Actually a really good idea for the public,who without Skilled technicians or trademen can do a crap job with only have themselves to blame! There are the safety issues to consider and the safety of other road users. We all have families, we employ people and in our own way we support the country and the economy. Try it!
Is that a joke or are you really a world class t
t?1) Very few people are prepared to do work on their car unless they have some idea what they're doing
2) I used to work in the motor industry and I've seen plenty of mechanics screw things up (as indeed I've got things wrong myself, despite pieces of paper which suggest I shouldn't)
3) Ultimately this just makes things easier for people with restricted facilities at home. They'd do it anyway. The prospect of having to drive miles down the road and then pay for the opportunity to do it isn't likely to entice first time DIYers.
4) If you're really worried about the economy, consider that the guy doing the work may well have three kids and a mortgage himself; not enough people are going to do it to have an effect on a national scale; and the parts still have to come from somewhere - in fact it's perhaps more likely they'll come from the local motor factors now, rather than a bulk order from overseas.
To the organisers - sounds like a great idea to me. I've heard of a similar scheme costing significantly more, at which point I'd question the logic of not going to a regular garage, but at £10 an hour with decent facilities I think it sounds ideal.
I too have a mortgage and children and we are in a recession. I hope you manage to keep your job/business in the new year. Many will not.I wish this business well as any other in this climate.I`m sure it will be supported irrespective of my comments.
Agreed I must be a world class tt to employ people who have families and contribute to the economy.Just some friendly advice for you.As an employer,if I encountered this attitude you would be off my list in an instant.
Some of the public,I`m afraid kid themselves they know what they are doing. Some have no idea.Only when you fk it up you turn to the experts so perhaps consider this arguement when calling me a tt.
We , the profession are not here just for the public fkups. This trade is not about simple stuff like oil changes and brake pads.This simple stuff is priced so as the public need not bother getting their hand dirty anyway.The complex problem solving is born out of experience, you the public don`t have that and never will.That applies to every profession.
Many of us who don`t jump ship( like you) actually take pride in what we do and enjoy our profession, though It must be the only trade where the public know more about it than we do.
I wonder why you left the trade in the first place, sounds like you only want to be a weekend tech ?.mmmmm.Us professionals live it daily, with the stress too.
There are good and bad in every profession.It would be wrong of me to assume your position, but I won`t resort to your silly insults, just effective arguement.
Bearing this in mind we train ,broadly speaking we the profession invest in our staff and give the public what they want,good service and value for money . Sometimes our trust/ investment in employees backfires when staff leave or are caught fiddling. That then becomes our loss.Consider this point aswell, our investment in you the employee.
As an employer of people who have families I accept I have a responsibilty to to those families aswell. Unlike you I still work in the industry and have for many years.As a proprietor I have overheads and like all small businesses support the country via tax vat etc.Though More importantly,as an employer.
Agreed , my choice, my world . But consider the whole, not just part of the arguement
Agreed I must be a world class t
t to employ people who have families and contribute to the economy.Just some friendly advice for you.As an employer,if I encountered this attitude you would be off my list in an instant.Some of the public,I`m afraid kid themselves they know what they are doing. Some have no idea.Only when you f
k it up you turn to the experts so perhaps consider this arguement when calling me a tt. We , the profession are not here just for the public f
kups. This trade is not about simple stuff like oil changes and brake pads.This simple stuff is priced so as the public need not bother getting their hand dirty anyway.The complex problem solving is born out of experience, you the public don`t have that and never will.That applies to every profession.Many of us who don`t jump ship( like you) actually take pride in what we do and enjoy our profession, though It must be the only trade where the public know more about it than we do.
I wonder why you left the trade in the first place, sounds like you only want to be a weekend tech ?.mmmmm.Us professionals live it daily, with the stress too.
There are good and bad in every profession.It would be wrong of me to assume your position, but I won`t resort to your silly insults, just effective arguement.
Bearing this in mind we train ,broadly speaking we the profession invest in our staff and give the public what they want,good service and value for money . Sometimes our trust/ investment in employees backfires when staff leave or are caught fiddling. That then becomes our loss.Consider this point aswell, our investment in you the employee.
As an employer of people who have families I accept I have a responsibilty to to those families aswell. Unlike you I still work in the industry and have for many years.As a proprietor I have overheads and like all small businesses support the country via tax vat etc.Though More importantly,as an employer.
Agreed , my choice, my world . But consider the whole, not just part of the arguement
RW774 said:
...is born out of experience, you the public don`t have that and never will.
UnbelievableI've been reading this thread and biting my lip trying not to comment but that, that is a step too far.
To assume that just because someone doesn't have access to a ramp they must be some kind of a moron incapable of solving their own problems is a bit rich. I'm a factory trained Lotus technician who is now working as a mechanical engineer with the company. I live in a mid terrace house and park outside. We're not allowed to do 'homework' on site so I don't have access to a ramp. Does that make me incapable of working to safe standards on my own vehicles? My dad is in his late 60's and has worked on and raced old motorbikes since the 1950's. He's an electrician though, so I guess he's not safe to work on his own vehicles and should pay you or one of your mates to do the work for him?
What about all the 'old boys' who kept their vehicles running perfectly well and safely before specialists were availabe?
What about all of the club racers that could do with a ramp occassionally?
I understand that you have a business to keep afloat, but rather than trying to tear this business to bits maybe you should make the prospect of using your services more attractive than those offered here?
I for one think that this seems like a great idea and I wish them all the success in the world.
Edited by srob on Monday 7th December 15:53
If you take the trouble to read the first part of my posting, it reads
` I wish this business well as any other in this current climate. No doubt it will be well supported despite my observations. `
Consider the backdrop of investment some of us have to make these days in diagnostic equipment, training and generally helping the public when in trouble. My choice entirely. Knowledge is a great asset, better shared to a degree for others to benefit . Tradesmen needs public support, especially in these trying times though perhaps you think otherwise. Not everyone is satisfied working in a shed as a hobby. Not everyone has the same skills level, not everyone the same overheads. However, they try to survive they still need your support.
Interesting aspect on the racing side . One I had forgotten about to the detriment of my arguement.
Point taken. So where does the informtion come from to enable you to work as a hobby in the first place.Perhaps I`m too cynical having seen alot of public cockups over the years.
Didn`t the Surtess family start by buying an existing business , after the proprietor had an early heart attack.Very sad. He was a very good Jaguar engineer.
There are now more MVs out there than were ever manufactured by the factory!
` I wish this business well as any other in this current climate. No doubt it will be well supported despite my observations. `
Consider the backdrop of investment some of us have to make these days in diagnostic equipment, training and generally helping the public when in trouble. My choice entirely. Knowledge is a great asset, better shared to a degree for others to benefit . Tradesmen needs public support, especially in these trying times though perhaps you think otherwise. Not everyone is satisfied working in a shed as a hobby. Not everyone has the same skills level, not everyone the same overheads. However, they try to survive they still need your support.
Interesting aspect on the racing side . One I had forgotten about to the detriment of my arguement.
Point taken. So where does the informtion come from to enable you to work as a hobby in the first place.Perhaps I`m too cynical having seen alot of public cockups over the years.
Didn`t the Surtess family start by buying an existing business , after the proprietor had an early heart attack.Very sad. He was a very good Jaguar engineer.
There are now more MVs out there than were ever manufactured by the factory!
RW774 said:
I too have a mortgage and children and we are in a recession.
If you're service is good enough and cost effective enough to lure people away from DIY then hopefully that won't be a problem. You may well have an army of loyal customers forcing money into your hands, in which case I genuinely am pleased for you, but if people aren't choosing to spend money on your business that's their perogative. You can't state that everyone's short of money at the moment and then complain that they're not spending.I didn't mean to rant, I just honestly assumed it was a joke when I read the original post. What if the guy changing his brake pads at this place is a retired garage owner? I'm not denying that the average mechanic is much better skilled than the average punter, but I've met some truly hopeless mechanics working at (allegedly) professional garages and some very adept DIY enthusiasts. It's not as if everyone in the world is going to take up this scheme - it's going to be the guy who previously did it on his drive with second rate tools, now doing it on a ramp with proper equipment and paying the owner of the 'DIY garage' to do it. Sounds like win-win to me.
RW774 said:
Agreed not everyone is inept, but must accept the fact that your own repairs are your own responsibilty legally.
In the same way that not all garages are competent and honest, not all DIYers are inept. Additionally, the big plus of doing it yourself (assuming a modicum of competence) is that you know it's been done properly - all fasteners back in place, no stripped threads, no twisted/stressed rubber pipes, fasteners correctly torqued and threadlocked as appropriate, no nearby components or paintwork damaged - and the list goes on. All of these and more have been perpetrated on me by professionals in the last few years.Agreed good point. Also agreed that for the competitor it will be a great asset, the use of a ramp.
However, my point is this. A good many Garage proprietors have made significant investment in diagnostics Tooling and training their staff to a high standard, to give the public a value for money service and keep ahead of the game.We are okay here, but I do feel for the smaller guys , many of which are excellent at what they do. More DIY centres cannot be good news for the small proprietor and is no good for the trade generally, depite your general protests, the standard of repairs will fall. After all, if you resent paying a skilled man to do a skilled job, then we continue to have skilled trademen.
If you cannot, the skilled men become fewer ?
These days certain aspects of motor vehicle repair require programming of service exchange components into their management system. Basic stuff like Brake pads even, on BMWs, I believe need to be programming after replacement .
We sometimes help the trade out here,if they have a diagnostic problem with a Jaguar/ Land Rover belonging one of their own clients, we will depatch a tech to rectify the issue.That`s part of the service we and many others offer to the trade. With diagnostic investments upwardly of £18K, we need to profit from our investment.
No matter how talented you are,there will be that moment the home mechanic will be in need of those expensive diagnostics . Somehow, I don`t think it will be found at a DIY garage.
However, my point is this. A good many Garage proprietors have made significant investment in diagnostics Tooling and training their staff to a high standard, to give the public a value for money service and keep ahead of the game.We are okay here, but I do feel for the smaller guys , many of which are excellent at what they do. More DIY centres cannot be good news for the small proprietor and is no good for the trade generally, depite your general protests, the standard of repairs will fall. After all, if you resent paying a skilled man to do a skilled job, then we continue to have skilled trademen.
If you cannot, the skilled men become fewer ?
These days certain aspects of motor vehicle repair require programming of service exchange components into their management system. Basic stuff like Brake pads even, on BMWs, I believe need to be programming after replacement .
We sometimes help the trade out here,if they have a diagnostic problem with a Jaguar/ Land Rover belonging one of their own clients, we will depatch a tech to rectify the issue.That`s part of the service we and many others offer to the trade. With diagnostic investments upwardly of £18K, we need to profit from our investment.
No matter how talented you are,there will be that moment the home mechanic will be in need of those expensive diagnostics . Somehow, I don`t think it will be found at a DIY garage.
It's because of the diagnostics that the public is faced with an army of garage 'fitters' rather than 'mechanics'; couple this with the frequent dishonesty of the motor trade and a desire of many people to work on their vehicles, and it's no wonder DIY garages are appearing.
The days of garage staff being able to problem-solve (and not just by substitution of parts until the problem goes away) and repair vehicles (again, rather than just replace parts) are dwindling.
Please yourself whether you disagree with this
The days of garage staff being able to problem-solve (and not just by substitution of parts until the problem goes away) and repair vehicles (again, rather than just replace parts) are dwindling.
Please yourself whether you disagree with this
Interesting point from someone not connected with the trade presently, or has had some bad experience.The situations you mention were the case some 20 years ago, in the early days of electronic motor management.There were situations that arose with the dealerships when diagnostic tooling were as poor as the production cars themselves.Not so nowadays. Substition of parts that are programmable,purchased from the dealer, such as instrument pods , management modules etc are non refundable and not re usable after programming.
If there is any element of doubt that a problem which led to a component failure, the garage will give you the option of purchasing said component or paying for further investigation into what caused the problem.The it becomes YOUR choice.The idea of just changing everything for the sake of it and leaving the client to pick up the tab is laughable.
Nice Mk2 you have, certainly looks good. Painted by a proffessional in the motor trade ?
If there is any element of doubt that a problem which led to a component failure, the garage will give you the option of purchasing said component or paying for further investigation into what caused the problem.The it becomes YOUR choice.The idea of just changing everything for the sake of it and leaving the client to pick up the tab is laughable.
Nice Mk2 you have, certainly looks good. Painted by a proffessional in the motor trade ?
RW774 said:
Quite a lot of stuff.
Some of which makes sense, and some annoys me beyond what is good for my blood pressure.You seem to not realise that your arguments represents (in a different trade, admittedly) the sort of madness that means I have to get a halfwit from the council to "inspect" my electrial work in my own house in order for it to be legal.
This is despite me having a MEng degree in electical and electronic engineering, most of the way to being a chartered engineer (which won't help with part P either) and 10 years experience of working in defence electronics and radar systems. Cars are simple and probably safer (if I did things wrong) in comparison to what I do every day. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.
I'm sure you'd love there to be some trade protection agreement with the government (in the guise of H&S of course...) in order to protect your job in law. Just be aware it would make the roads more unsafe than trusting that, generally, people do know their limits.
BTW, I do use garages to get some work on my cars done. Sometimes I don't have time to do the work, haven't got the tools or don't want to have work out how it should be done.
This is what makes my blood boil.....Insurances way beyond my budget, road risks, employees liability, `Pats` test this that and something else yearly by law,Inspections on ramps ( they are new but still need testing every 6 months by law) Fire alarms, burglar alarms, fire alarm system testing, 3 phase testing,110 volt system testing, rent, rates and heating and heating appliance testing, staff holidays , staff sickness,employment law, health and safety, etc etc etc . I don`t fly in the face of risk, I run a legit business and respect / comply with the law as best I can.I am taxed to the hilt and somehow I and others are expected to make a living in a reccession caused by some bunch of high flying wkers who are paid with our money. I can`t get an extension to a small O/D facility because some member of the public forgets his credit card, he still expectss his car bar clean completed and returned on time.The banks consider the motor trade too much of a risk? who? where? what? So my bank controls my business growth and their high flyers still recieve their christmas bonuses spread over the year
.
RW774 said:
Agreed good point. Also agreed that for the competitor it will be a great asset, the use of a ramp.
However, my point is this. A good many Garage proprietors have made significant investment in diagnostics Tooling and training their staff to a high standard, to give the public a value for money service and keep ahead of the game.We are okay here, but I do feel for the smaller guys , many of which are excellent at what they do. More DIY centres cannot be good news for the small proprietor and is no good for the trade generally, depite your general protests, the standard of repairs will fall. After all, if you resent paying a skilled man to do a skilled job, then we continue to have skilled trademen.
If you cannot, the skilled men become fewer ?
These days certain aspects of motor vehicle repair require programming of service exchange components into their management system. Basic stuff like Brake pads even, on BMWs, I believe need to be programming after replacement .
We sometimes help the trade out here,if they have a diagnostic problem with a Jaguar/ Land Rover belonging one of their own clients, we will depatch a tech to rectify the issue.That`s part of the service we and many others offer to the trade. With diagnostic investments upwardly of £18K, we need to profit from our investment.
No matter how talented you are,there will be that moment the home mechanic will be in need of those expensive diagnostics . Somehow, I don`t think it will be found at a DIY garage.
I have to admit you come across as having a very arrogant and blinkered view of the the motor trade.However, my point is this. A good many Garage proprietors have made significant investment in diagnostics Tooling and training their staff to a high standard, to give the public a value for money service and keep ahead of the game.We are okay here, but I do feel for the smaller guys , many of which are excellent at what they do. More DIY centres cannot be good news for the small proprietor and is no good for the trade generally, depite your general protests, the standard of repairs will fall. After all, if you resent paying a skilled man to do a skilled job, then we continue to have skilled trademen.
If you cannot, the skilled men become fewer ?
These days certain aspects of motor vehicle repair require programming of service exchange components into their management system. Basic stuff like Brake pads even, on BMWs, I believe need to be programming after replacement .
We sometimes help the trade out here,if they have a diagnostic problem with a Jaguar/ Land Rover belonging one of their own clients, we will depatch a tech to rectify the issue.That`s part of the service we and many others offer to the trade. With diagnostic investments upwardly of £18K, we need to profit from our investment.
No matter how talented you are,there will be that moment the home mechanic will be in need of those expensive diagnostics . Somehow, I don`t think it will be found at a DIY garage.
As for garages and main dealers just plugging your car in and saying whats wrong with it first time has me laughing my head off here. Yes you can plug in a diagnostics computer and if the fault is one that has been programmed in then you'll have a nice simple solution. I'd say going by my own experiences and by people i know, and what i read on forums like this that your average garage mechanic is no better now than 20 years ago, and in many cases they are worse as they don't understand the complexities of the systems that cars have fitted to them these days.They'll quite happily change sensors or components at your expense until they get lucky.
Unfortunately garages that are classed as good are only providing the service they should, the vast majority of garages provide a barely adequate service, and in my experience they are often downright dangerous.
For all your comments about amateurs being crap at car repairs there's probably an equal number of qualified 'technicians' (can't call them mechanics any more!)who are equally as bad.
While we're on the subject of diagnostics: The most difficult job I have ever been asked to do for my current employer was to create the Built In Test Equipment (known as BITE for short) for one of our development radars. The concept is very similar to car ECU diagnostics, except in my case the BITE was permanantly connected monitoring things.
All it could look for were the symptoms of problems, not the problems themselves - taking a simple example - a power supply voltage droop could be a flaky supply or something drawing too much current. The something that is drawing too much current may not have gone wrong sufficiently to show a fault yet, so the operator only knows about the supply problem. So naturally he replaces the supply and doesn't fix the fault. (And in my case, looks a bit of a prat for getting a new power supply shipped half way across the country in double quick time for no real reason...
)
Diagnostics is a difficult game for both the people making the systems and the people using them. Our ability to create complex systems slightly exceeds our ability to fault find the self same systems, so while diagnostics were a bit naff 20 years ago, the systems they worked on were also much simpler. The result is things move forward and therfore stay about the same. Sometimes the people making them either aren't psychic or quite "clever" enough to account for every eventuality, which leaves a mechanic (who chances are does not have an engineering or computer science degree to help him) a bit stuck!
All it could look for were the symptoms of problems, not the problems themselves - taking a simple example - a power supply voltage droop could be a flaky supply or something drawing too much current. The something that is drawing too much current may not have gone wrong sufficiently to show a fault yet, so the operator only knows about the supply problem. So naturally he replaces the supply and doesn't fix the fault. (And in my case, looks a bit of a prat for getting a new power supply shipped half way across the country in double quick time for no real reason...
)Diagnostics is a difficult game for both the people making the systems and the people using them. Our ability to create complex systems slightly exceeds our ability to fault find the self same systems, so while diagnostics were a bit naff 20 years ago, the systems they worked on were also much simpler. The result is things move forward and therfore stay about the same. Sometimes the people making them either aren't psychic or quite "clever" enough to account for every eventuality, which leaves a mechanic (who chances are does not have an engineering or computer science degree to help him) a bit stuck!
eccles said:
RW774 said:
Agreed good point. Also agreed that for the competitor it will be a great asset, the use of a ramp.
However, my point is this. A good many Garage proprietors have made significant investment in diagnostics Tooling and training their staff to a high standard, to give the public a value for money service and keep ahead of the game.We are okay here, but I do feel for the smaller guys , many of which are excellent at what they do. More DIY centres cannot be good news for the small proprietor and is no good for the trade generally, depite your general protests, the standard of repairs will fall. After all, if you resent paying a skilled man to do a skilled job, then we continue to have skilled trademen.
If you cannot, the skilled men become fewer ?
These days certain aspects of motor vehicle repair require programming of service exchange components into their management system. Basic stuff like Brake pads even, on BMWs, I believe need to be programming after replacement .
We sometimes help the trade out here,if they have a diagnostic problem with a Jaguar/ Land Rover belonging one of their own clients, we will depatch a tech to rectify the issue.That`s part of the service we and many others offer to the trade. With diagnostic investments upwardly of £18K, we need to profit from our investment.
No matter how talented you are,there will be that moment the home mechanic will be in need of those expensive diagnostics . Somehow, I don`t think it will be found at a DIY garage.
I have to admit you come across as having a very arrogant and blinkered view of the the motor trade.However, my point is this. A good many Garage proprietors have made significant investment in diagnostics Tooling and training their staff to a high standard, to give the public a value for money service and keep ahead of the game.We are okay here, but I do feel for the smaller guys , many of which are excellent at what they do. More DIY centres cannot be good news for the small proprietor and is no good for the trade generally, depite your general protests, the standard of repairs will fall. After all, if you resent paying a skilled man to do a skilled job, then we continue to have skilled trademen.
If you cannot, the skilled men become fewer ?
These days certain aspects of motor vehicle repair require programming of service exchange components into their management system. Basic stuff like Brake pads even, on BMWs, I believe need to be programming after replacement .
We sometimes help the trade out here,if they have a diagnostic problem with a Jaguar/ Land Rover belonging one of their own clients, we will depatch a tech to rectify the issue.That`s part of the service we and many others offer to the trade. With diagnostic investments upwardly of £18K, we need to profit from our investment.
No matter how talented you are,there will be that moment the home mechanic will be in need of those expensive diagnostics . Somehow, I don`t think it will be found at a DIY garage.
As for garages and main dealers just plugging your car in and saying whats wrong with it first time has me laughing my head off here. Yes you can plug in a diagnostics computer and if the fault is one that has been programmed in then you'll have a nice simple solution. I'd say going by my own experiences and by people i know, and what i read on forums like this that your average garage mechanic is no better now than 20 years ago, and in many cases they are worse as they don't understand the complexities of the systems that cars have fitted to them these days.They'll quite happily change sensors or components at your expense until they get lucky.
Unfortunately garages that are classed as good are only providing the service they should, the vast majority of garages provide a barely adequate service, and in my experience they are often downright dangerous.
For all your comments about amateurs being crap at car repairs there's probably an equal number of qualified 'technicians' (can't call them mechanics any more!)who are equally as bad.
Arrogant and blinkered?.Reading your thread your opinion of my profession is low and I am standing up for those who DO offer good service.
You have obviously never worked in my enviroment. I`m afraid you wouldn`t last 2 minutes without investment and training.This point applies in your profession too, surely. I won`t make any comment on your occupation, It would be disrespectful.However I will say this,
The Characteristics you describe are created by long term secure employment, especially those in HM goverment or the armed forces. That `s when you get a paid regularly and have a `secure ` pension after 16 years.
I and many other don`t have that benefit.Don`t think I don`t support the armed forces , I do indeed.
A `Blinkered and arrogant attitude` YOU have man, that every Garage is crap.A point made again by someone not involved in this profession.
Lets`Look at a scenario.The goverment pay to give the best training in the world to those in the armed forces,using the tax payers` money to invest.
They then pension them off early, only to realise they have a shortage of skilled personel because they have laid too many off.So they offer a vast increase in wages to those `Techs` to return to full employment.Thats` not a real world investment or a logical step.I and many others don`t have that benefit of the tax payers` purse.I make the investment myself, born out of doing a good job for the public.
If this scenario applies to you then you are very fortunate indeed, but there are two worlds man .HM forces or goverment status then you are not in the real world.
As an aircraft technician surely you rely on a mix of experience and diagnostsics ? Have your employers not invested heavily in training you in the past? Do you not have a responsibilty to the operators and the public? Does your employer have Insurances against risks?
I`m sure the answer to all these points is yes, that`s the same for a me as a proprietor of a garage business, except we have to maintain a high standard of workmanship because if we don`t , we die. There is no `regular` wage in the real world and we have to be judged by the likes of you the public.Agreed standards do vary, but my proffession lacks regulation unfortunetly, yours is regulated.
With your experience, would you either trust, buy or fly with your family in an aircraft maintained by a member of the public who say, was adept?.
No history say of maintenenance, no flight log,no maintenance log etc etc.
I don`t think so.I don`t gamble with safety. Do you?.
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