London's DIY Garage
Discussion
dnb said:
While we're on the subject of diagnostics: The most difficult job I have ever been asked to do for my current employer was to create the Built In Test Equipment (known as BITE for short) for one of our development radars. The concept is very similar to car ECU diagnostics, except in my case the BITE was permanantly connected monitoring things.
All it could look for were the symptoms of problems, not the problems themselves - taking a simple example - a power supply voltage droop could be a flaky supply or something drawing too much current. The something that is drawing too much current may not have gone wrong sufficiently to show a fault yet, so the operator only knows about the supply problem. So naturally he replaces the supply and doesn't fix the fault. (And in my case, looks a bit of a prat for getting a new power supply shipped half way across the country in double quick time for no real reason...
)
Diagnostics is a difficult game for both the people making the systems and the people using them. Our ability to create complex systems slightly exceeds our ability to fault find the self same systems, so while diagnostics were a bit naff 20 years ago, the systems they worked on were also much simpler. The result is things move forward and therfore stay about the same. Sometimes the people making them either aren't psychic or quite "clever" enough to account for every eventuality, which leaves a mechanic (who chances are does not have an engineering or computer science degree to help him) a bit stuck!
Agreed most of us don`t have a degree, but a qualification does not give youAll it could look for were the symptoms of problems, not the problems themselves - taking a simple example - a power supply voltage droop could be a flaky supply or something drawing too much current. The something that is drawing too much current may not have gone wrong sufficiently to show a fault yet, so the operator only knows about the supply problem. So naturally he replaces the supply and doesn't fix the fault. (And in my case, looks a bit of a prat for getting a new power supply shipped half way across the country in double quick time for no real reason...
)Diagnostics is a difficult game for both the people making the systems and the people using them. Our ability to create complex systems slightly exceeds our ability to fault find the self same systems, so while diagnostics were a bit naff 20 years ago, the systems they worked on were also much simpler. The result is things move forward and therfore stay about the same. Sometimes the people making them either aren't psychic or quite "clever" enough to account for every eventuality, which leaves a mechanic (who chances are does not have an engineering or computer science degree to help him) a bit stuck!
experience in how to effect a safe and quick repair, just a good head start! happy new year man
RW774 said:
eccles said:
RW774 said:
Agreed good point. Also agreed that for the competitor it will be a great asset, the use of a ramp.
However, my point is this. A good many Garage proprietors have made significant investment in diagnostics Tooling and training their staff to a high standard, to give the public a value for money service and keep ahead of the game.We are okay here, but I do feel for the smaller guys , many of which are excellent at what they do. More DIY centres cannot be good news for the small proprietor and is no good for the trade generally, depite your general protests, the standard of repairs will fall. After all, if you resent paying a skilled man to do a skilled job, then we continue to have skilled trademen.
If you cannot, the skilled men become fewer ?
These days certain aspects of motor vehicle repair require programming of service exchange components into their management system. Basic stuff like Brake pads even, on BMWs, I believe need to be programming after replacement .
We sometimes help the trade out here,if they have a diagnostic problem with a Jaguar/ Land Rover belonging one of their own clients, we will depatch a tech to rectify the issue.That`s part of the service we and many others offer to the trade. With diagnostic investments upwardly of £18K, we need to profit from our investment.
No matter how talented you are,there will be that moment the home mechanic will be in need of those expensive diagnostics . Somehow, I don`t think it will be found at a DIY garage.
I have to admit you come across as having a very arrogant and blinkered view of the the motor trade.However, my point is this. A good many Garage proprietors have made significant investment in diagnostics Tooling and training their staff to a high standard, to give the public a value for money service and keep ahead of the game.We are okay here, but I do feel for the smaller guys , many of which are excellent at what they do. More DIY centres cannot be good news for the small proprietor and is no good for the trade generally, depite your general protests, the standard of repairs will fall. After all, if you resent paying a skilled man to do a skilled job, then we continue to have skilled trademen.
If you cannot, the skilled men become fewer ?
These days certain aspects of motor vehicle repair require programming of service exchange components into their management system. Basic stuff like Brake pads even, on BMWs, I believe need to be programming after replacement .
We sometimes help the trade out here,if they have a diagnostic problem with a Jaguar/ Land Rover belonging one of their own clients, we will depatch a tech to rectify the issue.That`s part of the service we and many others offer to the trade. With diagnostic investments upwardly of £18K, we need to profit from our investment.
No matter how talented you are,there will be that moment the home mechanic will be in need of those expensive diagnostics . Somehow, I don`t think it will be found at a DIY garage.
As for garages and main dealers just plugging your car in and saying whats wrong with it first time has me laughing my head off here. Yes you can plug in a diagnostics computer and if the fault is one that has been programmed in then you'll have a nice simple solution. I'd say going by my own experiences and by people i know, and what i read on forums like this that your average garage mechanic is no better now than 20 years ago, and in many cases they are worse as they don't understand the complexities of the systems that cars have fitted to them these days.They'll quite happily change sensors or components at your expense until they get lucky.
Unfortunately garages that are classed as good are only providing the service they should, the vast majority of garages provide a barely adequate service, and in my experience they are often downright dangerous.
For all your comments about amateurs being crap at car repairs there's probably an equal number of qualified 'technicians' (can't call them mechanics any more!)who are equally as bad.
Arrogant and blinkered?.Reading your thread your opinion of my profession is low and I am standing up for those who DO offer good service.
You have obviously never worked in my enviroment. I`m afraid you wouldn`t last 2 minutes without investment and training.This point applies in your profession too, surely. I won`t make any comment on your occupation, It would be disrespectful.However I will say this,
The Characteristics you describe are created by long term secure employment, especially those in HM goverment or the armed forces. That `s when you get a paid regularly and have a `secure ` pension after 16 years.
I and many other don`t have that benefit.Don`t think I don`t support the armed forces , I do indeed.
A `Blinkered and arrogant attitude` YOU have man, that every Garage is crap.A point made again by someone not involved in this profession.
Lets`Look at a scenario.The goverment pay to give the best training in the world to those in the armed forces,using the tax payers` money to invest.
They then pension them off early, only to realise they have a shortage of skilled personel because they have laid too many off.So they offer a vast increase in wages to those `Techs` to return to full employment.Thats` not a real world investment or a logical step.I and many others don`t have that benefit of the tax payers` purse.I make the investment myself, born out of doing a good job for the public.
If this scenario applies to you then you are very fortunate indeed, but there are two worlds man .HM forces or goverment status then you are not in the real world.
As an aircraft technician surely you rely on a mix of experience and diagnostsics ? Have your employers not invested heavily in training you in the past? Do you not have a responsibilty to the operators and the public? Does your employer have Insurances against risks?
I`m sure the answer to all these points is yes, that`s the same for a me as a proprietor of a garage business, except we have to maintain a high standard of workmanship because if we don`t , we die. There is no `regular` wage in the real world and we have to be judged by the likes of you the public.Agreed standards do vary, but my proffession lacks regulation unfortunetly, yours is regulated.
With your experience, would you either trust, buy or fly with your family in an aircraft maintained by a member of the public who say, was adept?.
No history say of maintenenance, no flight log,no maintenance log etc etc.
I don`t think so.I don`t gamble with safety. Do you?.
You are correct in that i've never worked in your industry, but your industry is one which many people can gain experience of by working on their own cars, and can be just as good as a trained garage mechanic in many tasks. I've restored a vintage car, built kit cars and maintained race cars.
You say you have to maintain a high standard of workmanship. You may well do that, but the vast majority of garages don't. That's why I was saying you are blinkered. Just read the countless threads on these forums for tales of garages getting it wrong, not diagnosing problems or just downright dangerous workmanship. The tales of repeated visits to change another sensor or component in the hope of getting it right are rife, yet it's the punter who ends up paying for the garages lack of skill or ability to diagnose.
Far too many garages these days rely not on experience, but on the diagnostics machine that you put so much faith in.I've had experience of this as have many of my friends. Garage plugs in machine, then phones you up to say we can't find anything, what were the symptoms again? Then starts the cycle of well, we'll try changing this, pick car up, fault reappears, and repeat!
Yes, there are good decent garages out there, but i'd say these are the exception rather than the rule. That's why I called you arrogant and blinkered. You say the amateur couldn't do as good a job as a trained professional, and could well end up doing dangerous repairs. Well I say many trained garage personnel are just as guilty of this and there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to back it up.
RW774 said:
Interesting point from someone not connected with the trade presently, or has had some bad experience.The situations you mention were the case some 20 years ago, in the early days of electronic motor management.There were situations that arose with the dealerships when diagnostic tooling were as poor as the production cars themselves.Not so nowadays. Substition of parts that are programmable,purchased from the dealer, such as instrument pods , management modules etc are non refundable and not re usable after programming.
If there is any element of doubt that a problem which led to a component failure, the garage will give you the option of purchasing said component or paying for further investigation into what caused the problem.The it becomes YOUR choice.The idea of just changing everything for the sake of it and leaving the client to pick up the tab is laughable.
Nice Mk2 you have, certainly looks good. Painted by a proffessional in the motor trade ?
Not really laughable, as there are plenty of people who have had the same experience. Look at some of the threads on this very site and you will see the same.If there is any element of doubt that a problem which led to a component failure, the garage will give you the option of purchasing said component or paying for further investigation into what caused the problem.The it becomes YOUR choice.The idea of just changing everything for the sake of it and leaving the client to pick up the tab is laughable.
Nice Mk2 you have, certainly looks good. Painted by a proffessional in the motor trade ?
I am not averse to garages earning a living - I often use a professional garage to do things when I don't have the time, the tools, or the inclination. But it's difficult to find a garage that is trustworthy. To rubbish DIY efforts in the way you have is symptomatic of the motor trade in general and gives it its poor reputation.
Yes, the car was painted professionally, and the panel replacement wsa too. I know my limitations, hence using a professional bodyshop to do it. But we're not talking about bodyshops are we? The thread is about DIY garage work.
RW774 said:
This is what makes my blood boil.....Insurances way beyond my budget, road risks, employees liability, `Pats` test this that and something else yearly by law,Inspections on ramps ( they are new but still need testing every 6 months by law) Fire alarms, burglar alarms, fire alarm system testing, 3 phase testing,110 volt system testing, rent, rates and heating and heating appliance testing, staff holidays , staff sickness,employment law, health and safety, etc etc etc . I don`t fly in the face of risk, I run a legit business and respect / comply with the law as best I can.I am taxed to the hilt and somehow I and others are expected to make a living in a reccession caused by some bunch of high flying w
kers who are paid with our money. I can`t get an extension to a small O/D facility because some member of the public forgets his credit card, he still expectss his car bar clean completed and returned on time.The banks consider the motor trade too much of a risk? who? where? what? So my bank controls my business growth and their high flyers still recieve their christmas bonuses spread over the year
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perdu said:
RW774 said:
Actually a really good idea for the public,who without Skilled technicians or trademen can do a crap job with only have themselves to blame!
There are the safety issues to consider and the safety of other road users. Say some numpty cross threads his replacement brake pipes or whatever.Whose fault is that? definetly yours.Seriously,My guess is this has been set up by a garage franchise who will offer to repair the `numpty` cock up professionally at vast cost , or carry out basic diagnostics for you at rip off prices. I think you would be foolish not to consider the whole picture. Not everything is as it seems.
Most of us in the trade actually take pride in what we do and take safety seriously . Thankfully , most of the public recognise our professionalism, though a great many of you fail to even acknowlege it.
You want our experience but you refuse pay for it, or support the trade in the downturn. Only when it goes wrong do we see the home mechanic. Believe me it goes wrong more times for them than I care to remember. Still we offer to help out.
The public could do better by promoting good experiences, supporting the services the aftermarket offer. We all have families, we employ people and in our own way we support the country and the economy.Try it!
as a private owner of a classic car, I'd think this to be a good idea whose time has come..There are the safety issues to consider and the safety of other road users. Say some numpty cross threads his replacement brake pipes or whatever.Whose fault is that? definetly yours.Seriously,My guess is this has been set up by a garage franchise who will offer to repair the `numpty` cock up professionally at vast cost , or carry out basic diagnostics for you at rip off prices. I think you would be foolish not to consider the whole picture. Not everything is as it seems.
Most of us in the trade actually take pride in what we do and take safety seriously . Thankfully , most of the public recognise our professionalism, though a great many of you fail to even acknowlege it.
You want our experience but you refuse pay for it, or support the trade in the downturn. Only when it goes wrong do we see the home mechanic. Believe me it goes wrong more times for them than I care to remember. Still we offer to help out.
The public could do better by promoting good experiences, supporting the services the aftermarket offer. We all have families, we employ people and in our own way we support the country and the economy.Try it!
but as a retired AA patrol who spent many a stupid wasted Sunday afternoon trying to put right the ravages of Sunday morning DIYing so the muppet could get to work the next day, or towed to a garage that afternoon, I have to say I reckon this IS a Major disaster waiting to happen.
I'm sure the liability insurance premium for this place must be astronomical.
(now if there was one in Brum I might use it myself, but TBQH most of the jobs I think will take an hour or two tend to take double or treble these days. Old age creeps up on us all...)
the idea?
No it frightens me...
Thank you all for the responses. I, take the point that there are a good many not so good garages out there, but sadly there are very ,very few that the time to contribute to this kind of topic.If they did spend a few minutes adding to the discussion you would see a very different perspective.
It is a difficult, tough enviroment in which to earn a living successfully, unless as say,` rip off the public`.I have worked bigger dealerships where this is the norm.Agreed there are a good many `Rip off garages` and a good many dealerships`ripping off` the trade aswell.
let me share an example with you .
I have had battles with our `new`dealership recently. I`m pleased because having taken some 400 of their client base over the last 2 years, we have become alot more stable in these troubled times.
In turn they have really made life hell for us with deliveries ,discounts and VORs ( vehicle of the road orders). The dealership was bought by a multi national franchise( they are based in Cambridge) in 2009 who instantly closed ALL the trade accounts including our own. I can only assume this is to regain lost trade.Imagine what this did to the insurance authorised bodyshops , whos` cashflow on the whole is bad enough when controlled by the big Insurance groups. It did us no favours with our clients. Example,X type major repair, client needed the car back by saturday( wedding) components sourced and ordered in good time VOR , but were 36hrs late. We worked late into the night to complete the task when said components DID arrive, which cost the company overtime etc.Fortunetly I have a good workforce who understand the issues we have been experiencing.If I had not carried out this repair,I`m sure the dealer would have said to the client`You would have had better service here` I know because our customers have been approached by that same dealer, condeming the aftermarket they are supplying!
Our spending varies but some months can exceed £10K,but there is now a new threat to take back our impress stock too. No other Jaguar specialist has this facility as far as I know , but the parts manager( who is a really top guy) has his hands tied by the new accounts and management team. I have seen the corporate protection guy 6 times this year, lastly beccause of a complaint from a factory Director, living in the area ( Bury St Edmunds ). Our advertising was apparently` too corporate` and I was asked not to conduct this type of campaign again. Can you believe it?
So, to overcome the problems we made an approach to become an Authorsied Repairer, but was told by Jaguar that my area was already catered for by the `dealer`( the same dealer I mentioned above), a repairship was not needed.
So you see, these powerful dealerships call the tune with the manufacturer and trade alike. Despite awful deliveries , I contacted the corp protection guy ,he could do nothing about it. The dealership is carrying out its` obligations, albeit underhand in its tactics.
I have since agreed a deal with another dealership.They can give twice a day deliveries, better discounts and better service alround.They are actively gaining the bodyshops trade also.
So you see the next time you gripe about a garage, think about what goes on behind the scenes. Just how much control these big boys have over the marketplace and you the public. Its` immense.
If we had a regulatory body that was totally impartial, we would have a far better, customer focused industry. We are members of various organisations including RAC approved here for what its` worth.
The bigger dealerships have far TOO much control, far too much clout and influence spereading into the professional organisations and the market place. The better garages need support and they need it now, especially from the public.
I ask and would appreciate an answer please, would you take you family up in an aircraft maintained by an adept mechanically minded member of the public?.
It is a difficult, tough enviroment in which to earn a living successfully, unless as say,` rip off the public`.I have worked bigger dealerships where this is the norm.Agreed there are a good many `Rip off garages` and a good many dealerships`ripping off` the trade aswell.
let me share an example with you .
I have had battles with our `new`dealership recently. I`m pleased because having taken some 400 of their client base over the last 2 years, we have become alot more stable in these troubled times.
In turn they have really made life hell for us with deliveries ,discounts and VORs ( vehicle of the road orders). The dealership was bought by a multi national franchise( they are based in Cambridge) in 2009 who instantly closed ALL the trade accounts including our own. I can only assume this is to regain lost trade.Imagine what this did to the insurance authorised bodyshops , whos` cashflow on the whole is bad enough when controlled by the big Insurance groups. It did us no favours with our clients. Example,X type major repair, client needed the car back by saturday( wedding) components sourced and ordered in good time VOR , but were 36hrs late. We worked late into the night to complete the task when said components DID arrive, which cost the company overtime etc.Fortunetly I have a good workforce who understand the issues we have been experiencing.If I had not carried out this repair,I`m sure the dealer would have said to the client`You would have had better service here` I know because our customers have been approached by that same dealer, condeming the aftermarket they are supplying!
Our spending varies but some months can exceed £10K,but there is now a new threat to take back our impress stock too. No other Jaguar specialist has this facility as far as I know , but the parts manager( who is a really top guy) has his hands tied by the new accounts and management team. I have seen the corporate protection guy 6 times this year, lastly beccause of a complaint from a factory Director, living in the area ( Bury St Edmunds ). Our advertising was apparently` too corporate` and I was asked not to conduct this type of campaign again. Can you believe it?
So, to overcome the problems we made an approach to become an Authorsied Repairer, but was told by Jaguar that my area was already catered for by the `dealer`( the same dealer I mentioned above), a repairship was not needed.
So you see, these powerful dealerships call the tune with the manufacturer and trade alike. Despite awful deliveries , I contacted the corp protection guy ,he could do nothing about it. The dealership is carrying out its` obligations, albeit underhand in its tactics.
I have since agreed a deal with another dealership.They can give twice a day deliveries, better discounts and better service alround.They are actively gaining the bodyshops trade also.
So you see the next time you gripe about a garage, think about what goes on behind the scenes. Just how much control these big boys have over the marketplace and you the public. Its` immense.
If we had a regulatory body that was totally impartial, we would have a far better, customer focused industry. We are members of various organisations including RAC approved here for what its` worth.
The bigger dealerships have far TOO much control, far too much clout and influence spereading into the professional organisations and the market place. The better garages need support and they need it now, especially from the public.
I ask and would appreciate an answer please, would you take you family up in an aircraft maintained by an adept mechanically minded member of the public?.
RW774 said:
I ask and would appreciate an answer please, would you take you family up in an aircraft maintained by an adept mechanically minded member of the public?.
I'm an adept mechanically minded member of the public. I assume you've left out qualified?And to be fair there are many light aircraft around that can be maintained by an adept mechanically minded member of the public and will still carry your family.
You seem to be drawing comparisons with fixing a car with fixing an aircraft, when in reality they are on a vastly different set of standards. You seem to be implying that only qualified and trained personnel can fix cars and that if they don't then you are risking your families life, which is really quite laughable given the standard of work most garages turn out.
As for moaning about big boys and the supply of parts, well that's just business, and applies to everyone. We tell the customer they can expect their aircraft back on a certain date, and 9 times out of 10 they get it, they don't care what hours we work to achieve that, again it's just business.
So a higher level of skill is involved with repairing planes than cars ?
What Rubbish.Its` experience and training that count in any profession.
If the aero industry was littered with back street do it yourself repaired aircraft and workshops that were un-regulated, the industry standards would not be affected, Is that right?
Didn`t not the CAA bring in legislation to improve those standards?
Are these repair standards lower in the under-developed countries ?
Home repairs would lower the standard of vehicles on the road.Poorly manufactured parts would flood in if we did not have some regulation.
Same for the aero industry
Cheaper crap parts etc, semi skilled repairs, I shudder the thought of it.
Running a business means thinking outside the box 24/7. Its` not for the faint hearted dealing with the public who have a blinkered view of the motor trade.
What Rubbish.Its` experience and training that count in any profession.
If the aero industry was littered with back street do it yourself repaired aircraft and workshops that were un-regulated, the industry standards would not be affected, Is that right?
Didn`t not the CAA bring in legislation to improve those standards?
Are these repair standards lower in the under-developed countries ?
Home repairs would lower the standard of vehicles on the road.Poorly manufactured parts would flood in if we did not have some regulation.
Same for the aero industry
Cheaper crap parts etc, semi skilled repairs, I shudder the thought of it.
Running a business means thinking outside the box 24/7. Its` not for the faint hearted dealing with the public who have a blinkered view of the motor trade.
RW774 said:
So a higher level of skill is involved with repairing planes than cars ?
What Rubbish.Its` experience and training that count in any profession.
If the aero industry was littered with back street do it yourself repaired aircraft and workshops that were un-regulated, the industry standards would not be affected, Is that right?
Didn`t not the CAA bring in legislation to improve those standards?
Are these repair standards lower in the under-developed countries ?
Home repairs would lower the standard of vehicles on the road.Poorly manufactured parts would flood in if we did not have some regulation.
Same for the aero industry
Cheaper crap parts etc, semi skilled repairs, I shudder the thought of it.
Running a business means thinking outside the box 24/7. Its` not for the faint hearted dealing with the public who have a blinkered view of the motor trade.
You keep trying to make out car repairs are like fixing aircraft. They aren't. We get it wrong then there's quite a chance that people will die, maybe even hundreds of people. To stop that we have a very strict set of rules and standards and as you said yourself if you lower those standards then you can end up like parts of africa.What Rubbish.Its` experience and training that count in any profession.
If the aero industry was littered with back street do it yourself repaired aircraft and workshops that were un-regulated, the industry standards would not be affected, Is that right?
Didn`t not the CAA bring in legislation to improve those standards?
Are these repair standards lower in the under-developed countries ?
Home repairs would lower the standard of vehicles on the road.Poorly manufactured parts would flood in if we did not have some regulation.
Same for the aero industry
Cheaper crap parts etc, semi skilled repairs, I shudder the thought of it.
Running a business means thinking outside the box 24/7. Its` not for the faint hearted dealing with the public who have a blinkered view of the motor trade.
There are almost no rules for fixing cars and the press isn't littered with stories of DIY mechanics killing themselves and their passengers.
The press and forums like these are littered with stories of garages ripping off people and doing sub standard repairs, again people aren't dieing, the cars just breakdown again or wobble to a stop. This isn't a blinkered view, it's one born out of experience
Agreed Eccles, but that`s my point, though I think you`ve missed it. Substandard repairs DO result in deaths that`s why our industry needs regulation, other than just MOT. Repair regulation needs extending to the haulage industry , but that is another matter.The whole idea of CAA regulation is to strip away the risks. Home repairs will introduce an element of risk to other road users. Cheaper parts increase that risk again.
If its` a risk it does not matter whether it`s in the air or on the road.A risk is a risk. Either way it needs eradicating or limiting, especially with the increased traffic above and below,.
My point is without regulation in your industry, the risks would rise significantly, be from substandard parts or repairs.
Its the same in any industry nowadays, Electricians, plumbers etc etc. Same situation applies.Back in the early days of aviation anyone could maintain your own aircraft, even build it .Not so easy nowadays.
I`ve already said I make no comment on the professionalism of your industry. It employs skilled tradesmen on the whole and experience counts every time. I`m sure you will agree that regulation improves the standard of repairs, certinly the standard of parts.We in my profession could learn alot from your industry, which is why I cannot understand your arguemnt that `Pit stop` would be good for Road safety? . That point flies in the face of everything your industry abides by.
My point is not about moaning. Though it appear so, I think it is wrong to lump the trade together as being rubbish.Thats` a narrow minded attitude that needs dumping. My point was how difficult it is to run a business in this climate and how much we need the public support.I get fed up with condemnation. Somebody mentioned Pistonheads being littered with those who have had bad trade experiences, its` littered with people asking for information .That information has filtered down from the trade, either directly or indirectly. I contribute to the the good of my profession and the public .I hope my contributions improve safety, eg Tyres/ wheels/ etc on Pistonheads. My idea is to make people think more about there cars. I`m just as passionate now as I was 30 years ago, despite the knocks and difficulties no one outside of the trade appreciate. It indeed costs a fortune to run a garage successfuly with Insurances training etc amd the public need to be aware of that fact.
I`m not averse to people carrying out their own repairs.Its always been there and aways will be. But,they need to be aware that they are responsible for their own and others safety if you have no liability insurance, as we need by law.I`m sure you will agree that you cannot cut corners in ANY industry reagrding safety. Must now do some work
If its` a risk it does not matter whether it`s in the air or on the road.A risk is a risk. Either way it needs eradicating or limiting, especially with the increased traffic above and below,.
My point is without regulation in your industry, the risks would rise significantly, be from substandard parts or repairs.
Its the same in any industry nowadays, Electricians, plumbers etc etc. Same situation applies.Back in the early days of aviation anyone could maintain your own aircraft, even build it .Not so easy nowadays.
I`ve already said I make no comment on the professionalism of your industry. It employs skilled tradesmen on the whole and experience counts every time. I`m sure you will agree that regulation improves the standard of repairs, certinly the standard of parts.We in my profession could learn alot from your industry, which is why I cannot understand your arguemnt that `Pit stop` would be good for Road safety? . That point flies in the face of everything your industry abides by.
My point is not about moaning. Though it appear so, I think it is wrong to lump the trade together as being rubbish.Thats` a narrow minded attitude that needs dumping. My point was how difficult it is to run a business in this climate and how much we need the public support.I get fed up with condemnation. Somebody mentioned Pistonheads being littered with those who have had bad trade experiences, its` littered with people asking for information .That information has filtered down from the trade, either directly or indirectly. I contribute to the the good of my profession and the public .I hope my contributions improve safety, eg Tyres/ wheels/ etc on Pistonheads. My idea is to make people think more about there cars. I`m just as passionate now as I was 30 years ago, despite the knocks and difficulties no one outside of the trade appreciate. It indeed costs a fortune to run a garage successfuly with Insurances training etc amd the public need to be aware of that fact.
I`m not averse to people carrying out their own repairs.Its always been there and aways will be. But,they need to be aware that they are responsible for their own and others safety if you have no liability insurance, as we need by law.I`m sure you will agree that you cannot cut corners in ANY industry reagrding safety.
Must now do some workThe last thing we need is CAA style regulation for cars. We'd not be allowed to do anything then.
Don't you know the CAA is known as the "Campaign Against Aviation" by every civilian pilot I know?
I have witnessed lots of insanity from the CAA (I know they do a lot of good too, but I suspect it's by chance sometimes ) One example is that someone was told that some parts on his plane undercarriage needed replacing, and they weren't made any more. However, there was a military version which was still in production. The parts were identical, but the CAA wouldn't sanction their use.
The car equivilent would be to stop you using your car at all because you lost a wheel nut and the box of spares you have didn't explicitly say they could be used on your car.
Did you know it's cheaper and easier to fly your British built private aircraft to Germany for it's annual than to get it done in this country? The CAA saw to this...
Any regulation imposed by governments will ALWAYS go too far and make both the home mechanic and small businesses suffer to an extent far, far greater than any franchised dealer could impose.
Don't you know the CAA is known as the "Campaign Against Aviation" by every civilian pilot I know?
I have witnessed lots of insanity from the CAA (I know they do a lot of good too, but I suspect it's by chance sometimes
) One example is that someone was told that some parts on his plane undercarriage needed replacing, and they weren't made any more. However, there was a military version which was still in production. The parts were identical, but the CAA wouldn't sanction their use.The car equivilent would be to stop you using your car at all because you lost a wheel nut and the box of spares you have didn't explicitly say they could be used on your car.
Did you know it's cheaper and easier to fly your British built private aircraft to Germany for it's annual than to get it done in this country? The CAA saw to this...
Any regulation imposed by governments will ALWAYS go too far and make both the home mechanic and small businesses suffer to an extent far, far greater than any franchised dealer could impose.
dnb, I agree that the CAA may have rather ruined things, but if you really want to screw the whole country then get the FSA (Financial Services Authority) to run the MOT. My job was finance, and I watched them grow from the start and screw everything just to make jobs for themselves, then they missed the bank problems. Now let them take over the MOT and running garages and no one will get their car serviced in this country!
Seems a no win situation.Gripe or not,the motor trade lacks any legislation. The RMI,of which we are members -are effectively dictated to by the bigger dealerships as are the manufacturers,the banks are calling in facilities on good businesses. The public think we rip off merchants.What do you suggest??
Watching all the bloody foriegn hangers on , stuck outside the banks in Norfolk waiting to cash in their benefit cheques makes my blood boil. I had a meeting with the new small business manager of my Bank yesterday. He is the 12th since 03.He tells me the motor trade is high risk.Thats with him looking at 18 cars in the shop from my office window. I said, `I think you got that wrong, its` your overseas investment arm thats` high risk,Isn`t that why your here for us small businesses to pay for your own cockups? As dipolmatic as they are, they are just not interested in anything outside their world and surprisingly blinkered and stupid on the whole.
I may well set up a PITSTOP garage myself.Use my Techs at £?? per hour putiing right cockups.
Its a win win situation and looking better by the minute.
I may well set up a PITSTOP garage myself.Use my Techs at £?? per hour putiing right cockups.
Its a win win situation and looking better by the minute.
There is another factor here with diagnostics:
The need for ever-so-technical diagnostics has also been inbuilt as a business model so that the dealerships can continue to earn a revenue stream after the initial purchase of the car.
The margins on new cars are minuimal these days due to competition of brands and the internet for price searching (fixing?). Nothing is sacred = everything is publicly searchable.
If manufactures made cars that were simple to fix, they would make their whole organisational infrastructure redundent.
To the OP - great business model - I hope you succeed. How about involving more Detailers? Would draw a crowd and create both an interest and more business.
The need for ever-so-technical diagnostics has also been inbuilt as a business model so that the dealerships can continue to earn a revenue stream after the initial purchase of the car.
The margins on new cars are minuimal these days due to competition of brands and the internet for price searching (fixing?). Nothing is sacred = everything is publicly searchable.
If manufactures made cars that were simple to fix, they would make their whole organisational infrastructure redundent.
To the OP - great business model - I hope you succeed. How about involving more Detailers? Would draw a crowd and create both an interest and more business.
Personally I think this is a great idea. Years ago I purchased a replacement exhaust system for my old Chevy Camaro. I had the car up on axle stands all round and the fitting of the system was going well until I went to fit the bit where the pipe went over the rear axle! Even though the car was a good couple of feet of the ground I could not get the bent pipe over the axle 
In the end I had to get the car off the axle stands and drive the car with straight through's down to an exhaust center and use their ramp! (Have to say the car sounded great down the back of Sutton High St 
) I could not purchase the parts I needed from them as this was an American car. So the set up of a new business like this is a good thing 
I wish you guys the very best, Good Luck.
In the end I had to get the car off the axle stands and drive the car with straight through's down to an exhaust center and use their ramp! (Have to say the car sounded great down the back of Sutton High St ) I could not purchase the parts I needed from them as this was an American car. So the set up of a new business like this is a good thing I wish you guys the very best, Good Luck.
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