Does anyone use a classic as a daily driver?

[jith]

ADP68 said:

I want one. How does one know if the cat is good? Is it an inspection job, or is there something a mechanical numpty (like me) can diagnose?

The common faults with cats are that they simply crack, usually at or near a weld, and this is obvious due to the noise!: or they will block up, seriously reducing performance and in some cases drastically increasing under bonnet temperatures, again this is obvious. The most common fault however is for the core to come loose causing a tinny rattle at idle or low revs. When this happens the cat can still function so somtimes it's not so obvious.

If you buy a car that has just had an MOT have a look at the emission levels and if they are acceptable and the car performs well with no rattles you are usually OK. If you have the slightest doubts, allow for a new cat in the purchase price.

These guys are great. http://www.cats-direct-shop.co.uk/

I got one for my Audi from them for 60 quid! They do virtually all the Merc range.

Best of luck and post us some pics when you get a nice car.

[ADP68]

Many thanks once again.
Out of interest, how much is it to replace one (fitted) on a SEC?

[lowdrag]

Out of curiosity I did a search and if this is the right part it doesn't seem that expensive

http://www.thepartsbin.com/catalog/?N=9190&Nr=... Benz,model:560SEC,year:1989),AND(universal:1))&Vi=1668+11173+4294963685&y=1989&mk=Mercedes Benz&md=560SEC

[jith]

lowdrag said:

Out of curiosity I did a search and if this is the right part it doesn't seem that expensive

http://www.thepartsbin.com/catalog/?N=9190&Nr=... Benz,model:560SEC,year:1989),AND(universal:1))&Vi=1668+11173+4294963685&y=1989&mk=Mercedes Benz&md=560SEC

That's an American site lowdrag, so really not representative of prices here.
The thing about the 560s is that from memory there are four different cats fitted, and some of them are incorporated into the front pipes, which means you have to buy two!

I put two new cats onto a 600 V12 around 18 months ago and they were only available from Mercedes and were 860 quid each!! Mind you, they were the largest cats I have ever seen on a vehicle.

If you buy a late 560 I'm sure it has a single, twin pipe cat and you should be able to pick that up for around 250-300 pounds, which is not too bad.

[Pigeon]

Surely with a pre-92 vehicle the simplest and cheapest option is simply to replace the cat with a piece of pipe?

[jith]

Pigeon said:

Surely with a pre-92 vehicle the simplest and cheapest option is simply to replace the cat with a piece of pipe?

You could do Pigeon, but this size of cat on such a large engine makes it extremely quiet, and you're doing your bit for the environment. Bear in mind that ADP is talking about using it every day.

Mind you, and I think you will find this interesting, the 600 I spoke of that we put new cats on was running really badly because the offside cat was blocked to the point where the air filter almost went on fire with the heat build up.

To get the guy back on the road until we got the new cats I removed the core, refitted what was simply an empty box and tested the emissions. The 600S Coupe has no less than 5 ECUs! All of them integrated to give finite engine control. The emissions on the left bank were identical to the right, even with the cat removed, and the car was an absolute flier.

It's a magnificent power unit; totally smooth and tractable with awesome torque.

[Electron]

Sorry been away ...

I've run my SEC for nearly four years summer winter, rain everything ... I do relatively low mileage primarily up the M3 to Heathrow.

My guidance on an SEC is buy a good one !! Charles at the SEC Shop has a good buyers guide but briefly ..

1) Put your hand under the rear parcel shelf from the boot - if it is rotten walk away - if it is slightly rusty be prepared to pull the rear window and parcel shelf and repair.

2) Rear windows delaminate and go cloudy - purely cosmetic £400

3) Cams wear and rattle if the engine isn't serviced £1,500 but probably the tip of an iceberg of lack of maintenance.

4) Front wings - they rot - buy saloon wings and cut them up for repair panels for the original coupe wings to maintain the really good factory fit.

5) Auto box - drive it on the motorway - boot it hard - any slippage/flare walk away or adjust the price significantly

6) No cats on mine just big kidney shaped dustbins then tail boxes.

7) Use standard 16" or good 17" alloys - the 20" drug dealers look nice but the thing tramlines - wears lower balljoints - crashes and bangs on small road defets..

8) Fuse box furs up so the electric windows, wipers, other things fail randomly - keep a box of fuses and some fine emery paper in the glovebox !

This is the work after I bought her and after my first photo ..





This is her from a magazine photo shoot

[Pigeon]

jith said:

Pigeon said:

Surely with a pre-92 vehicle the simplest and cheapest option is simply to replace the cat with a piece of pipe?

You could do Pigeon, but this size of cat on such a large engine makes it extremely quiet, and you're doing your bit for the environment. Bear in mind that ADP is talking about using it every day.

Mind you, and I think you will find this interesting, the 600 I spoke of that we put new cats on was running really badly because the offside cat was blocked to the point where the air filter almost went on fire with the heat build up.

To get the guy back on the road until we got the new cats I removed the core, refitted what was simply an empty box and tested the emissions. The 600S Coupe has no less than 5 ECUs! All of them integrated to give finite engine control. The emissions on the left bank were identical to the right, even with the cat removed, and the car was an absolute flier.

It's a magnificent power unit; totally smooth and tractable with awesome torque.

That is indeed interesting, must say I do tend towards the view that good control of fuelling is more important than cats and will give just as good results if the basic engine underneath is up to it, and your observation seems to bear this out But ECUs don't make any money for the suppliers of precious metals...

What FI system do they have? I don't know much about Mercs but I thought they all had K-Jet in those times.

[jith]

Pigeon said:

jith said:

Pigeon said:

Surely with a pre-92 vehicle the simplest and cheapest option is simply to replace the cat with a piece of pipe?

You could do Pigeon, but this size of cat on such a large engine makes it extremely quiet, and you're doing your bit for the environment. Bear in mind that ADP is talking about using it every day.

Mind you, and I think you will find this interesting, the 600 I spoke of that we put new cats on was running really badly because the offside cat was blocked to the point where the air filter almost went on fire with the heat build up.

To get the guy back on the road until we got the new cats I removed the core, refitted what was simply an empty box and tested the emissions. The 600S Coupe has no less than 5 ECUs! All of them integrated to give finite engine control. The emissions on the left bank were identical to the right, even with the cat removed, and the car was an absolute flier.

It's a magnificent power unit; totally smooth and tractable with awesome torque.

That is indeed interesting, must say I do tend towards the view that good control of fuelling is more important than cats and will give just as good results if the basic engine underneath is up to it, and your observation seems to bear this out But ECUs don't make any money for the suppliers of precious metals...

What FI system do they have? I don't know much about Mercs but I thought they all had K-Jet in those times.

The 500/560s were run on KE Jet, but the 600 had moved on to Motronic, but I think it was with substantial Mercedes modifications. The fuelling was sequential, firing in four banks of three cylinders every second cycle on a light to medium throttle which gives a substantial improvement in fuel economy.

The one I spoke of had the ability to sense the excess temperature in the air filter housing due to the cat being blocked, and shut down the right bank, but kept the left running so the car could be driven home. I don't know why the Germans lost the war!

You are spot on about good fuelling control. A cat should only be there as the last part of the chemical cleansing of the exhaust gases, and not to compensate for poor engine management.

Incidentally, I was puzzled as to why this Merc had a blocked cat, but discovered that the guy's wife had overfilled the engine with oil and almost ruined it. It had been driven a few miles until smoke was billowing everywhere and she stopped. After a clean up the car was fine, but it had damaged this cat beyond repair.

[BMWChris]

sorry to hi jack...

Jith, do you have much expirience of the C36 and C43 AMGs?

[Hasbeen]

I've been using my TR7 for over 7 years now, although I like to use the TR8 a couple of times a week. They are much more reliable, the more miles you put on them, I have found. It's about 60,000 Km on the 7, & about 20,000 on the 8.

Prior to going all soft, with the Triumphs, I used a Morgan +4 [TR3A motor] for 18 months or so, & about 30,000Km. The only problem with the Morgan was some of our rougher roads. It used to bounce so high on some roads, I was more worried about the Dept. of Civil Aviation wanting to see my pilots licence, than I was about getting booked for speeding.

[jith]

BMWChris said:

sorry to hi jack...

Jith, do you have much expirience of the C36 and C43 AMGs?

Sorry for replying so late Chris; been very busy.

The AMGs are largely tuned Mercs and not that different from standard technically, although they definitely drive differently!

What is it you want to know?

[BMWChris]

Hi Jith,

Thanks for getting back to me. Don't worry about time, I'm in no rush.

I've done quite a lot of research but I suspect the same one or two incidences have formulated opinions and "internet facts" that keep getting repeated.

I guess I wanted to know:

how badly do W202s rust (I think of these as "modern" and therefore rust proof but I keep reading stories of rust problems)?

do C43s realy eat their gearboxes at about 100,000 miles?

there are lots of scare stories about parts prices for the AMG specific parts (ie £3k for an exhaust system) but is this becuase they seem a lot to people used to "normal" cars and if you are used to Porsche prices you would be a) less shocked b)able to find alternatives. Are the stories true?

Thanks

Edited by BMWChris on Monday 22 March 14:23

[lowdrag]

There seems to be a myth that the W202 series rust a lot. Well, my estate I've had from new in 2000 and it shows no sign of rust whatsoever. It has 140,000 on the clock and so far, apart from two specific problems, which were:-

1. the aircon compressor needed changing which cost £1,000 including regassing, and

2. a front spring broke so two front springs fitted costing £500

I don't think that's expensive for a 10 year old car. The car runs beautifully, has no rust anywhere (we checked underneath at the last service) and the consumption dropped when the motor was well and truly run in at 80,000 miles. An auto, I get about 36mpg on a run which isn't bad for an old technology car. They can be picked up for peanuts today and are, in my opion, well worth looking at as a cheap reliable transport. Tyres last about 25,000, oil consumption is a litre every 12,000 and servicing isn't expensive, especially here in France where I've never paid over £400, even for the biggie. I'll keep it till it drops, which will probably after I'm six feet under.

As regards when Mercedes build quality dropped, I'd say around 2000, but then when the W202 came out to replace the 190E the dealer told me they weren't a patch on the previous build quality. That being said, the E class has had so many well kmown problems and the W203 was a nightmare. Personally I'd avoid any Mercedes, S class down, built between 2000 and 2008. They were sadly built down to a price, not up to a quality.

Edit: I forgot to say mine's a 220Cdi so diesel and only about 125bhp, but it tows the big trailer and the D-type beautifully.
.

Edited by lowdrag on Monday 22 March 16:41

[NLB]

All this talk about W126 500/560s has got me thinking… to the point that a 560 SEC for regular use seems quite an attractive idea. As some of you obviously know these things quite well, I have a few further questions.

Clearly, there are rust issues to be considered, the electrical systems need to be looked at, and things like cats are potentially expensive. Am I right in thinking that all 560s have the self-levelling hydro-pneumatic suspension? Is this reasonably robust, and are there any obvious checks to perform on it? I have owned two Citroen CXs, with all their hydraulic trickery (none of which ever gave much trouble on mine), but this doesn’t really give many reference points for the Merc.

The other obvious area is fuel consumption, given the prices we are paying now… There is mention further up the thread of 30mpg being achievable on a steady run – if I bought one, it would do some short runs (where guzzling is to be expected), but the primary use would be the 270 mile round trip to the office, and the 2000 mile round trip to Italy…. Obviously, a 560 is not an economy car, but there are degrees of pain. I am long past being a boy racer, but one doesn’t buy a 5+ litre V8 and never use the power… Any suggestions as to the sort of consumption in this sort of regular use?

Finally, is a sensibly priced, nice looking, modest mileage one where the history has been (apparently genuinely) lost, worth looking at?