911 nightmare!
Discussion
As this business grows I am going to post up interesting projects, particularly if they are problems associated with a particular model or engine.
This however, was a new one on me and was yet another example of how an MOT can be a real hit or miss affair, especially on a classic.
One of my customers came into the workshop late morning last Saturday to say his 911 had "broken down" in the middle of the MOT test, and the garage reported huge clouds of smoke and engine failure. It is a very tidy Carrera 4 3.6, and his pride and joy. He was utterly dismayed. I told him not to let anyone touch it and get the RAC to bring it in. It duly arrived on the Monday morning and I put the rear up on axle stands.
The underside was wet with oil everywhere and the engine was hydraulically locked; would only turn a few degrees in either direction. This model has twin plug heads: six of the plugs being accessible from the engine bay, the other six from underneath. The only two you can remove without removing anything else are the two right hand rears. They came out soaked in engine oil and when I stood back there was a pool forming on the floor running out of the plug apertures!! On removing the others this was the result :-
Every cylinder filled with engine oil. But it doesn't end there because you have to find out how the hell the oil got there. This is what I found in the inlet manifold and plenum chambers:-
Then there was the exhaust. This is the main silencer stood on its end to drain :-
I then had to strip, degrease and clean virtually every part of the intake and exhaust systems, renew the plugs and filters and change the oil.
This is what happened.
For those of you not familiar with the 911, it is an air coooled engine that is dry sumped and has a catch tank in the offside rear wing. To properly check the engine oil level you have to have the car fully warmed up until the oil thermostat opens allowing the system to fully circulate and then dip the tank with the engine idling. If you check it with the engine switched off and cool, you will get no reading on the stick. You may be starting to get the picture.
Before carrying out an emissions check the tester is obliged to check the oil level. Guess who thought the engine was empty?
The close circuit breathing system on this engine has two large breather hoses going into the top of the tank. They overfilled it so much that the vacuum created in the hoses cause the engine to suck oil from the tank and pump it straight into the intake system and into the cylinders. The engine smoked like hell and then eventually hydraulically locked.
After the clean up operation I got it fired up and took it for a jaunt, still smoking quite badly for the first few miles, but finally clearing. A couple of cans of injector cleaner and some oil additive and she was purring like a kitten.
Incredibly, no engine damage, but my god what a time consuming job.
One relieved customer and a nice engine bay once again.
The MOT station are of course fully liable for any damage carried out during the test, so we will stand by and watch the sparks fly when he visits them with our techinical report. By the way they actually passed it with the engine seized and no emission test results!!
The moral of this story is always stand over them when they do your MOT!!
This however, was a new one on me and was yet another example of how an MOT can be a real hit or miss affair, especially on a classic.
One of my customers came into the workshop late morning last Saturday to say his 911 had "broken down" in the middle of the MOT test, and the garage reported huge clouds of smoke and engine failure. It is a very tidy Carrera 4 3.6, and his pride and joy. He was utterly dismayed. I told him not to let anyone touch it and get the RAC to bring it in. It duly arrived on the Monday morning and I put the rear up on axle stands.
The underside was wet with oil everywhere and the engine was hydraulically locked; would only turn a few degrees in either direction. This model has twin plug heads: six of the plugs being accessible from the engine bay, the other six from underneath. The only two you can remove without removing anything else are the two right hand rears. They came out soaked in engine oil and when I stood back there was a pool forming on the floor running out of the plug apertures!! On removing the others this was the result :-
Every cylinder filled with engine oil. But it doesn't end there because you have to find out how the hell the oil got there. This is what I found in the inlet manifold and plenum chambers:-
Then there was the exhaust. This is the main silencer stood on its end to drain :-
I then had to strip, degrease and clean virtually every part of the intake and exhaust systems, renew the plugs and filters and change the oil.
This is what happened.
For those of you not familiar with the 911, it is an air coooled engine that is dry sumped and has a catch tank in the offside rear wing. To properly check the engine oil level you have to have the car fully warmed up until the oil thermostat opens allowing the system to fully circulate and then dip the tank with the engine idling. If you check it with the engine switched off and cool, you will get no reading on the stick. You may be starting to get the picture.
Before carrying out an emissions check the tester is obliged to check the oil level. Guess who thought the engine was empty?
The close circuit breathing system on this engine has two large breather hoses going into the top of the tank. They overfilled it so much that the vacuum created in the hoses cause the engine to suck oil from the tank and pump it straight into the intake system and into the cylinders. The engine smoked like hell and then eventually hydraulically locked.
After the clean up operation I got it fired up and took it for a jaunt, still smoking quite badly for the first few miles, but finally clearing. A couple of cans of injector cleaner and some oil additive and she was purring like a kitten.
Incredibly, no engine damage, but my god what a time consuming job.
One relieved customer and a nice engine bay once again.
The MOT station are of course fully liable for any damage carried out during the test, so we will stand by and watch the sparks fly when he visits them with our techinical report. By the way they actually passed it with the engine seized and no emission test results!!
The moral of this story is always stand over them when they do your MOT!!
Danny S said:
Oh my, is it a reputable garage?
I presume instructions on how to check the oil level are clearly shown somewhere? Or did the owner presume the tester knew ?
I'm not familiar with the garage Danny, but I wouldn't reveal who they are anyway on an open forum, it's not my style.I presume instructions on how to check the oil level are clearly shown somewhere? Or did the owner presume the tester knew ?
If your knowledge of motor vehicles is so sparse that you don't know how to check the oil level on a particular vehicle, you either find out, or you simply don't touch them.
jith said:
If your knowledge of motor vehicles is so sparse that you don't know how to check the oil level on a particular vehicle, you either find out, or you simply don't touch them.
Surely they'd phone the owner..... "'ere mate there's no oil in your motor." (Or however you say that in Glaswegian) would have got a response. scotal said:
jith said:
If your knowledge of motor vehicles is so sparse that you don't know how to check the oil level on a particular vehicle, you either find out, or you simply don't touch them.
Surely they'd phone the owner..... "'ere mate there's no oil in your motor." (Or however you say that in Glaswegian) would have got a response. militantmandy said:
scotal said:
jith said:
If your knowledge of motor vehicles is so sparse that you don't know how to check the oil level on a particular vehicle, you either find out, or you simply don't touch them.
Surely they'd phone the owner..... "'ere mate there's no oil in your motor." (Or however you say that in Glaswegian) would have got a response. Stephen.
Same thing,
My 'local' had mine in for an oli change only.
I only gve it them as they had (not only) actual photo's on the reception wall of owners son racing, but co-owner had a 964 he used dailyn,
I 'thought' they were a safe bet, but none the less the oil can came out over and over, and I was greeted by a traction engine ticking over on the forecourt.
Live and learn eh!
My 'local' had mine in for an oli change only.
I only gve it them as they had (not only) actual photo's on the reception wall of owners son racing, but co-owner had a 964 he used dailyn,
I 'thought' they were a safe bet, but none the less the oil can came out over and over, and I was greeted by a traction engine ticking over on the forecourt.
Live and learn eh!
militantmandy said:
scotal said:
jith said:
If your knowledge of motor vehicles is so sparse that you don't know how to check the oil level on a particular vehicle, you either find out, or you simply don't touch them.
Surely they'd phone the owner..... "'ere mate there's no oil in your motor." (Or however you say that in Glaswegian) would have got a response. The moral of this story is always stand over them when they do your MOT!!
[/quote]
I had two bad experiences, I once left my car at the MOT station thinking it would be safe as the garage was owned by a friend, I was given a lift home then went out in my other car a Subaru Impreza Turbo wrx. I was driving down a duel carriageway only to be passed by my 930 Turbo travelling at over 100 mph i gave chase and the driver (the garage owners 23 year old son with another lad)thought i was racing only to put his foot down and go even faster, i returned to the MOT station to wait for his return, His father said "you know how much he likes Porsches i thought it would be OK" He just gave me a free MOT,and apologised, i never used the garage again.
The other time i left my car at a porsche specialist in Halesowen for a service, When i collected the car it ran out of fuel 200 yards from the garage, the mechanic had used half a tank of fuel, i found out that they had used my car to give lifts home to customers dropping off there cars over the three days they had the car.
Never leave you car at a MOT station, always be sure you can trust anyone who works on your car. 911's the temptation!
[/quote]
I had two bad experiences, I once left my car at the MOT station thinking it would be safe as the garage was owned by a friend, I was given a lift home then went out in my other car a Subaru Impreza Turbo wrx. I was driving down a duel carriageway only to be passed by my 930 Turbo travelling at over 100 mph i gave chase and the driver (the garage owners 23 year old son with another lad)thought i was racing only to put his foot down and go even faster, i returned to the MOT station to wait for his return, His father said "you know how much he likes Porsches i thought it would be OK" He just gave me a free MOT,and apologised, i never used the garage again.
The other time i left my car at a porsche specialist in Halesowen for a service, When i collected the car it ran out of fuel 200 yards from the garage, the mechanic had used half a tank of fuel, i found out that they had used my car to give lifts home to customers dropping off there cars over the three days they had the car.
Never leave you car at a MOT station, always be sure you can trust anyone who works on your car. 911's the temptation!
Oh my days, this is certainly a bad ordeal. There aren't many places that MOT 3 wheelers so i always use the same one. Because it's a kit car, every time i go there i explain where all of the different switches are and what liquids go where and when as it isn't exactly a normal setup.
scotal said:
jith said:
If your knowledge of motor vehicles is so sparse that you don't know how to check the oil level on a particular vehicle, you either find out, or you simply don't touch them.
Surely they'd phone the owner..... "'ere mate there's no oil in your motor." (Or however you say that in Glaswegian) would have got a response. 'Fannybaws', 'Youse', 'Nae', 'f
ken' and, of course, 'Oil'One of the many reasons why you should never ever let anybody else touch your car unless you know that they have experience with that model, most MOT stations will if asked nicely allow you to move the car into their workshop and watch . . . . . . . . . . . .
Given the complexity of 964 C4's and the scarcity of Bosch hammers and other compatible diagnostics kit, I'm surprised more mistakes of this type don’t happen.
Given the complexity of 964 C4's and the scarcity of Bosch hammers and other compatible diagnostics kit, I'm surprised more mistakes of this type don’t happen.
Did not know the MOT station was supposed to check / add oil, know they are meant to check oil temperature, but I would check that they are meant to add oil (which one - mobil one or halfords multigrade? never known a garage ask "what oil")
If they were not authorised to add oil, then they will find it harder to wriggle
If they were not authorised to add oil, then they will find it harder to wriggle
jith said:
By the way they actually passed it with the engine seized and no emission test results!!
Far too much faith is put into buying cars with long MOTs, even at best they only say the car was passable on that particular day at that particular timeBecause of this blind faith in MOTs I've previously offered serious buyers to forget the existing MOT on my car and offer to take it to a garage of their choice to get a fresh 12 month MOT, any faults I'll put them right before final sale - I've never had anyone take me up on this because hopefully they see I'm honest and very confident in my car - or they don't want to lose the outstanding balance of the current MOT
Edited by SB - Nigel on Tuesday 1st June 22:21
SB - Nigel said:
jith said:
By the way they actually passed it with the engine seized and no emission test results!!
Far too much faith is put into buying cars with long MOTs, even at best they only say the car was passable on that particular day at that particular timeBecause of this blind faith in MOTs I've previously offered serious buyers to forget the existing MOT on my car and offer to take it to a garage of their choice to get a fresh 12 month MOT, any faults I'll put them right before final sale - I've never had anyone take me up on this because hopefully they see I'm honest and very confident in my car - or they don't want to lose the outstanding balance of the current MOT
Edited by SB - Nigel on Tuesday 1st June 22:21
Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff