Daimler V8 Modern Ignition and Injection Conversion
Discussion
Hi Guys,
After many years of continplating a modern conversion (my father looked at TBI from the Rover 200 series back in the mid 90's) I have with the help of my father (Russ Carpenter) started work on a full modern fuel injection and ignition system.
We have guestimated
that we should be able to easily achieve 180bhp using a stock parts with minimal adaption (mainly cutting the inlet manifold down to accept a single throttle body.
The system is currently based around the Megasquirt ECU (much to everyones discussed i expect to hear but with the help of one of the key code writers onboard) but uses Ford OEM equipment to replace the old distributer and SU's primarily for easy of sourcing, low cost and easy upgrading for high performance US imported parts if required.
We are in the very infant stages atm but I would be interested to hear peoples opinions on such a conversion.
The conversion will use semi-sequential injection and ignition all controlled by the ECU via wideband lambda. This will help to cut the emissions right down which may ultimately allow Daimler V8's to be used in modern rod conversions and kitcars.
The obvious benefits for SP250 and Saloon owners will be increased performance, economy and throttle response while reducing emissions.
Please leave me your comments, etc.
After many years of continplating a modern conversion (my father looked at TBI from the Rover 200 series back in the mid 90's) I have with the help of my father (Russ Carpenter) started work on a full modern fuel injection and ignition system.
We have guestimated
that we should be able to easily achieve 180bhp using a stock parts with minimal adaption (mainly cutting the inlet manifold down to accept a single throttle body.The system is currently based around the Megasquirt ECU (much to everyones discussed i expect to hear but with the help of one of the key code writers onboard) but uses Ford OEM equipment to replace the old distributer and SU's primarily for easy of sourcing, low cost and easy upgrading for high performance US imported parts if required.
We are in the very infant stages atm but I would be interested to hear peoples opinions on such a conversion.
The conversion will use semi-sequential injection and ignition all controlled by the ECU via wideband lambda. This will help to cut the emissions right down which may ultimately allow Daimler V8's to be used in modern rod conversions and kitcars.
The obvious benefits for SP250 and Saloon owners will be increased performance, economy and throttle response while reducing emissions.
Please leave me your comments, etc.
Do`nt use megasquirt, its` a s
te system.Omex or emerald suits the pocket better, otherwise its one of the much more expensive systems available.You Don`t need sequential if its` been set up correctly on the rollers, what`s the point?.You will only get emissions low at tickover, from there on the motor relies on the map configured on the rollers. You need to work out the flow rate of the injectors and the correct submersible pump.You won`t get any more BHP at the top end by fitting an injection system.Its all about mid range drive-ability and torque where the gains will be made.
te system.Omex or emerald suits the pocket better, otherwise its one of the much more expensive systems available.You Don`t need sequential if its` been set up correctly on the rollers, what`s the point?.You will only get emissions low at tickover, from there on the motor relies on the map configured on the rollers. You need to work out the flow rate of the injectors and the correct submersible pump.You won`t get any more BHP at the top end by fitting an injection system.Its all about mid range drive-ability and torque where the gains will be made.CarpenterRacing said:
Hi Guys,
After many years of continplating a modern conversion (my father looked at TBI from the Rover 200 series back in the mid 90's) I have with the help of my father (Russ Carpenter) started work on a full modern fuel injection and ignition system.
We have guestimated that we should be able to easily achieve 180bhp using a stock parts with minimal adaption (mainly cutting the inlet manifold down to accept a single throttle body.
The system is currently based around the Megasquirt ECU (much to everyones discussed i expect to hear but with the help of one of the key code writers onboard) but uses Ford OEM equipment to replace the old distributer and SU's primarily for easy of sourcing, low cost and easy upgrading for high performance US imported parts if required.
We are in the very infant stages atm but I would be interested to hear peoples opinions on such a conversion.
The conversion will use semi-sequential injection and ignition all controlled by the ECU via wideband lambda. This will help to cut the emissions right down which may ultimately allow Daimler V8's to be used in modern rod conversions and kitcars.
The obvious benefits for SP250 and Saloon owners will be increased performance, economy and throttle response while reducing emissions.
Please leave me your comments, etc.
Not in the market for Daimler injection system, but just wanted to say how impressed I was with your dads rail dragster, saw it a few times back in the 80's, seem to recall it being called the Hepolite Hustler or something, very impressive times too!After many years of continplating a modern conversion (my father looked at TBI from the Rover 200 series back in the mid 90's) I have with the help of my father (Russ Carpenter) started work on a full modern fuel injection and ignition system.
We have guestimated
that we should be able to easily achieve 180bhp using a stock parts with minimal adaption (mainly cutting the inlet manifold down to accept a single throttle body.The system is currently based around the Megasquirt ECU (much to everyones discussed i expect to hear but with the help of one of the key code writers onboard) but uses Ford OEM equipment to replace the old distributer and SU's primarily for easy of sourcing, low cost and easy upgrading for high performance US imported parts if required.
We are in the very infant stages atm but I would be interested to hear peoples opinions on such a conversion.
The conversion will use semi-sequential injection and ignition all controlled by the ECU via wideband lambda. This will help to cut the emissions right down which may ultimately allow Daimler V8's to be used in modern rod conversions and kitcars.
The obvious benefits for SP250 and Saloon owners will be increased performance, economy and throttle response while reducing emissions.
Please leave me your comments, etc.
Thanks for the comments so far.
a8hex - i did browse the forums and look through those pages. Seems to me everyone makes a lot of work out of nothing really. But never the less interesting reading.
RW774 - I'm not suprised it has taken such a short time to find someone to jump on Megasquirt so quickly. In my opinion they all have their own pro's and con's but I'm lucky enough to have one of the original coders on board to assist development anyway. He himself has already created Rover V8 kits with great success. As for my horsepower gains (or lack of) I fail to see how you can suggest that. The sequential injection will assist with a more accurate fuel supply and with modern coils and timed ignition will be mapable exactly to the engine. Dont forget the SU's do the engine no favours and the inlet manifold strangles the engine horendously!!! With port injection the flow of the manifold and old carbs are no longer the issue and the new coils will make sure the engine fires better as the plug gaps can be widened to a more realistic gap. And who needs a submersible pump? An uprated remote pump (like is currently in the boot of the Daimlers) is fine. It just has to supply a realistic pressure to the fuel rail and let the Fuel Pressure Regulator handle the supply.
I get the impression you have somewhat underestimated our research and progress though. Flow rates have been calculated, injector spray patterns assest, coil discharge voltages calculated, pulse width figures calculated, etc etc. And as for the mechanical side there is no one better in his understanding than my father so we are well ahead already. Its not like this is just a shed build stab-in-the-dark.
But thankyou for your comments, all are taken on board with thanks.
Erich - Nice to hear from people who remember him. There was a car called the Hepolite Hustler, but dads car was the Glacier Grenade. 7.2 seconds at 180mph weren't bad times from a practically stock Daimler engine (admitedly on race fuels)
Its a shame British Layland didnt realise what an engine they had. They were convinced that 300 BHP was the best achievable before it would blow its self apart. We gave up argueing with them long before dad got to 1400 BHP. The funniest thing from the who saga was the fact they even checked the figures themselves calculating long hand and agreed with the calculations and result, but swore blind there must a mistake even with their calculations as it was only able to handle 300 BHP. Dad gave up argueing with them then.
Incase your interested to see the car as it ended its days visit www.russcarpenterracing.co.uk - loads of old pictures, etc there.
On a side note, if anyone has any old pictures of my dad and his dragster (trouble, More trouble, EVen more trouble or Glacier Grenade) from the 70's - 00's and can spare a copy digital or otherwise I'd greatly appreciate it.
a8hex - i did browse the forums and look through those pages. Seems to me everyone makes a lot of work out of nothing really. But never the less interesting reading.
RW774 - I'm not suprised it has taken such a short time to find someone to jump on Megasquirt so quickly. In my opinion they all have their own pro's and con's but I'm lucky enough to have one of the original coders on board to assist development anyway. He himself has already created Rover V8 kits with great success. As for my horsepower gains (or lack of) I fail to see how you can suggest that. The sequential injection will assist with a more accurate fuel supply and with modern coils and timed ignition will be mapable exactly to the engine. Dont forget the SU's do the engine no favours and the inlet manifold strangles the engine horendously!!! With port injection the flow of the manifold and old carbs are no longer the issue and the new coils will make sure the engine fires better as the plug gaps can be widened to a more realistic gap. And who needs a submersible pump? An uprated remote pump (like is currently in the boot of the Daimlers) is fine. It just has to supply a realistic pressure to the fuel rail and let the Fuel Pressure Regulator handle the supply.
I get the impression you have somewhat underestimated our research and progress though. Flow rates have been calculated, injector spray patterns assest, coil discharge voltages calculated, pulse width figures calculated, etc etc. And as for the mechanical side there is no one better in his understanding than my father so we are well ahead already. Its not like this is just a shed build stab-in-the-dark.
But thankyou for your comments, all are taken on board with thanks.
Erich - Nice to hear from people who remember him. There was a car called the Hepolite Hustler, but dads car was the Glacier Grenade. 7.2 seconds at 180mph weren't bad times from a practically stock Daimler engine (admitedly on race fuels)
Its a shame British Layland didnt realise what an engine they had. They were convinced that 300 BHP was the best achievable before it would blow its self apart. We gave up argueing with them long before dad got to 1400 BHP. The funniest thing from the who saga was the fact they even checked the figures themselves calculating long hand and agreed with the calculations and result, but swore blind there must a mistake even with their calculations as it was only able to handle 300 BHP. Dad gave up argueing with them then.
Incase your interested to see the car as it ended its days visit www.russcarpenterracing.co.uk - loads of old pictures, etc there.
On a side note, if anyone has any old pictures of my dad and his dragster (trouble, More trouble, EVen more trouble or Glacier Grenade) from the 70's - 00's and can spare a copy digital or otherwise I'd greatly appreciate it.
A non experienced point of view it seems. You get what you pay for and megasquirt one of the cheapest systems on the market .I`d reasearch it to a greater depth of usage if I were you. I have seen V12 XJS race cars using Megasquirt suffering no end of issues, failed mapping due to ECU info Info loss, coil link breakdowns , impulse irregularities and wasted roller time etc etc. One racer eventually ditched it in favour of Emerald. That`s my opinion based on my experience. I`ve injected some 20 or so E types, Mk2s and Xks in the last 10 years or so using mostly Omex, laterly Emerald. Great service from both suppliers and great backup.EG emailing maps for checking difficult issues , I always recieve a response within the hour, especially from Willy Walker.I don`t remember questioning your own or anyone elses ability thats ` not my place, but I hate to see expensive mistakes when there are better alternatives.
Ask anyone with mapping experience and they will confirm what I have said regarding the sequential and emissions . You can achieve 13,5 AFR easily using banked injection and of course on throttle bodies. One Single throttle body would dampen axcel potential dramatically. So I`m afraid it would be a waste of time. Sounds to me that you are new to it, so good luck.
Ask anyone with mapping experience and they will confirm what I have said regarding the sequential and emissions . You can achieve 13,5 AFR easily using banked injection and of course on throttle bodies. One Single throttle body would dampen axcel potential dramatically. So I`m afraid it would be a waste of time. Sounds to me that you are new to it, so good luck.
Intersting reply.
Having spoke to literally dozens of coders I make my point that everyone recommends the one they can get to work and use. Everyone has their own preference. Back-up for MS will be kindly suplied by Phil Ringwood (original MS Extra coder) ready to assist at the end of a phone and computer. He's already writing our core settings for us.
As for experiance I have nothing more to say on that front. Its apparent you have already decided we're novices and thats your decision.
As for getting what you pay for I think your find that both the Emerald and Megasquirt ECU's are priced roughly the same around the £500 mark (give or take £50 depending where you go)
I understand the idea behind twin TB but the loss is minimal in all areas as far as we're concerned. We have other things that can be sorted that would make more of a differance. Exhaust manifolds to start with!!
I totally agree banked injection is adequate but semi-sequential never the less better, expecially with the evential progression on to a supercharged version (can't wait to hear the criticism on that idea). But that is a later idea, for now we're focusing on a NA kit.
And as for pump and swirl pot, neither are an issue. The fuel pump isn't as noisy as you try to make out if fitted correctly and the swirl pot is not required as long as you have a good fuel supply. Beside the hassle of fitting a modern pump to the tank.
I have noticed however your a Jag man which may explain some of the tabooing to this project. Its amazing how jag people can be with us "poor" Daimler owners
Perhaps as you are experianced in retro fitting Jag mk2's with fuel injection you could shed some light on which pump you use in the tank to offer the swirl pot built in while allowing easy instalation in the old system?
Any advise would be appreciated at the end of the day.
If anyone else has any constructive criticism please do comment.
Having spoke to literally dozens of coders I make my point that everyone recommends the one they can get to work and use. Everyone has their own preference. Back-up for MS will be kindly suplied by Phil Ringwood (original MS Extra coder) ready to assist at the end of a phone and computer. He's already writing our core settings for us.
As for experiance I have nothing more to say on that front. Its apparent you have already decided we're novices and thats your decision.
As for getting what you pay for I think your find that both the Emerald and Megasquirt ECU's are priced roughly the same around the £500 mark (give or take £50 depending where you go)
I understand the idea behind twin TB but the loss is minimal in all areas as far as we're concerned. We have other things that can be sorted that would make more of a differance. Exhaust manifolds to start with!!
I totally agree banked injection is adequate but semi-sequential never the less better, expecially with the evential progression on to a supercharged version (can't wait to hear the criticism on that idea). But that is a later idea, for now we're focusing on a NA kit.
And as for pump and swirl pot, neither are an issue. The fuel pump isn't as noisy as you try to make out if fitted correctly and the swirl pot is not required as long as you have a good fuel supply. Beside the hassle of fitting a modern pump to the tank.
I have noticed however your a Jag man which may explain some of the tabooing to this project. Its amazing how jag people can be with us "poor" Daimler owners
Perhaps as you are experianced in retro fitting Jag mk2's with fuel injection you could shed some light on which pump you use in the tank to offer the swirl pot built in while allowing easy instalation in the old system?
Any advise would be appreciated at the end of the day.
If anyone else has any constructive criticism please do comment.
Hi all,
On a more positive note(!), I'd be interested in the proposed setup. This is probably just tyre kicking on my part, so please take the following with as much sodium choride as you see fit.
I have no experience with injection but it has to be the way to go.I have a couple of "long term" (OK , well rusted) projects in the shed which might benefit from this., eventually. Keep up the good work and keep us (me 
) informed.
On the subject of blowers, I take it the plan is for an under bonnet installation? I've been wondering if the unit from our (Ozzie) GM v6 would fit? No doubt you have more and better choices in the UK. Do you reckon cooling will be an issue? We battle with that a bit on the standard car. Finally, what sort of things are you thinking of regarding exhaust manifolds, apart from cutting the B****y wings off!
Finally, I too thought the old fellah was a hero! I well remember Russ "giving it to them" in pro comp around 1980. (I left the UK in 82). I'm sure that he's the reason I have the shed full old Daimlers at the moment! Pity there aren't many 4.5's here.....
Cheers,
Brian (another "Poor Daimler" owner
)
On a more positive note(!), I'd be interested in the proposed setup. This is probably just tyre kicking on my part, so please take the following with as much sodium choride as you see fit.
I have no experience with injection but it has to be the way to go.I have a couple of "long term" (OK , well rusted
) projects in the shed which might benefit from this., eventually. Keep up the good work and keep us (me ) informed.On the subject of blowers, I take it the plan is for an under bonnet installation? I've been wondering if the unit from our (Ozzie) GM v6 would fit? No doubt you have more and better choices in the UK. Do you reckon cooling will be an issue? We battle with that a bit on the standard car. Finally, what sort of things are you thinking of regarding exhaust manifolds, apart from cutting the B****y wings off!
Finally, I too thought the old fellah was a hero! I well remember Russ "giving it to them" in pro comp around 1980. (I left the UK in 82). I'm sure that he's the reason I have the shed full old Daimlers at the moment! Pity there aren't many 4.5's here.....
Cheers,
Brian (another "Poor Daimler" owner
)Our first injected a Mk2 some years back and fitted a combined external pump and home madeswirl pot on the underside of the floorpan, before the availability of the combined units which I use today . Some of these units have built in sender units which means further work making both the gauge and sender compatible.I will leave you to trawl the net for suppliers best suited to your needs. and you DO need a swirl pot,to A / stop airation and B/ to keep a full head of fuel supplied to the pump to prevent seizure.( more common in external pumps).
Hence my `experience` jibe.
No more talk about `Poor Diamler clients`. My Father was a one of the few Daimler aprrentices,so I probably grew up seeing more Diamler cars than you will see in a life time. Anyone who cuts corners in any vehicle maintainence should not be allowed the vehicle in the first place. If you can`t afford it, you shouldn`t have it.
The 2.5 V8 was a great product designed by one of our greatest underated designers Edward Turner, the 4.5 was dropped by the Jaguar factory because it developed more horses than the 4.2 six even on its` triple SUs. The 2.5 used some of the strongest materials available but as with the 4.5 it could not be seen to out do the Jaguar product.The earlier Diamler 4.2 6 had a pretty poor block casting and to some degree the V8 4.2 suffered with simular issues aswell. I agree totally it needed further development.I think your idea of blowing it with injection and management is cracking.
The 2.5 was fitted to the Dart which as a production car ,when evaluated by Jaguar, really didn`t come up to their production quality . Lyons didn`t want to put time and money putting it right and Diamler didn`t have the funds prior to the Jaguar takeover to develop it.
On the 2.5 If I remember rightly the materials used on the bottom end would quite easily take the power, good luck with it.
Hence my `experience` jibe.
No more talk about `Poor Diamler clients`. My Father was a one of the few Daimler aprrentices,so I probably grew up seeing more Diamler cars than you will see in a life time. Anyone who cuts corners in any vehicle maintainence should not be allowed the vehicle in the first place. If you can`t afford it, you shouldn`t have it.
The 2.5 V8 was a great product designed by one of our greatest underated designers Edward Turner, the 4.5 was dropped by the Jaguar factory because it developed more horses than the 4.2 six even on its` triple SUs. The 2.5 used some of the strongest materials available but as with the 4.5 it could not be seen to out do the Jaguar product.The earlier Diamler 4.2 6 had a pretty poor block casting and to some degree the V8 4.2 suffered with simular issues aswell. I agree totally it needed further development.I think your idea of blowing it with injection and management is cracking.
The 2.5 was fitted to the Dart which as a production car ,when evaluated by Jaguar, really didn`t come up to their production quality . Lyons didn`t want to put time and money putting it right and Diamler didn`t have the funds prior to the Jaguar takeover to develop it.
On the 2.5 If I remember rightly the materials used on the bottom end would quite easily take the power, good luck with it.
Hi Guys,
brian g - thanks for the kind words. I'll update this forum page as we progress. I'm hoping to have a running example by xmas but we'll see if work commitments allows this.
The supercharger we were think of was the Eaton M62 or M90 (similar to the Jag XK supercharger).
The nice things about these are they will sit on top of a stock manifold (with a little adaption) and have rear entry so should easily fit nicely under the bonnet without the need to cut anything on the body. If you can let me know the model number of your GM v6 blower i will look into it. We're only planning on running 6-7 psi so should just about avoid the need for cooling. Although we have got ideas in the pipeline should it be required.
As for manifolds, nothing as of yet is planned. There have been discussions about making a custom 4-1 pipe setup but until we have everything else we want/need this will not be looked at.
As for the 4.5 I wouldnt worry there aren't many around now days. Don't get me wrong, they were lovely engines (as nice as the 2.5) but teh reason dad didn't use a 4.5 back in the early 70's was because they were a bugger to get spares for then. Now days its impossible, literaly!!!!!
RW774 - I'll take heed of you point. I'm hoping that it wont be required but I'll keep your recommendation in mind. Believe me I'll be the first to admit i'm wrong should I fit one. I know from great experiance how these pumps can suffer. Its one of the first thing my dad does when he has a customer who can't start a daimler, so much so he always carrys one with him. We recently obtained a beautiful mk2 daimler saloon from an old customer of my dad who had past away. It had a virtually brand new pump fitted which had already burn't out through running dry. The old owner hadn't changed it because he'd assumed it couldn't be the new pump that was faulty. That was the only reason it hadn't been on teh road for 2 years. Such a shame because he'd really looked after it as well.
I'm assuming your father was a pre-British Leyland apprentice when Daimler was still Daimler Motor Company Ltd. Coventry. What a lucky man to work with such a prestigious car company back then. Just a shame that as with all British marques the management couldn't run the company right.
I am impressed with your knowledge of Daimler. Its a shame Lyons couldn't see fit to use the daimler lumps in his beloved jags otherwise the fortunes could have been very different for Jaguar in the 70's and 80's. He is supposed to have finally scrapped the engine usage when a 4.5 was fitted to a mk10 and out performed the jag version considerably. NVM, thats history.
I'm sure the fact that the engine was so costly to produce didnt help either. My father has got a full breakdown of the chemical values, etc of the metals used in the engine somewhere, he had a friend who worked for a petrol chemical company in the 70's to test it in their labs. I can't remember off the top of my head however what metals were used. All i can remember is the quality is extremely good, thus why they are so strong!
I think everyone can agree the Dart (though beautiful) was the death throws of the company. Thats why Jag brought out the version B straight after they bought Daimler because of the safety risks.
Anyway, as soon as we start getting things together I'll update people on progress.
brian g - thanks for the kind words. I'll update this forum page as we progress. I'm hoping to have a running example by xmas but we'll see if work commitments allows this.
The supercharger we were think of was the Eaton M62 or M90 (similar to the Jag XK supercharger).
The nice things about these are they will sit on top of a stock manifold (with a little adaption) and have rear entry so should easily fit nicely under the bonnet without the need to cut anything on the body. If you can let me know the model number of your GM v6 blower i will look into it. We're only planning on running 6-7 psi so should just about avoid the need for cooling. Although we have got ideas in the pipeline should it be required.
As for manifolds, nothing as of yet is planned. There have been discussions about making a custom 4-1 pipe setup but until we have everything else we want/need this will not be looked at.
As for the 4.5 I wouldnt worry there aren't many around now days. Don't get me wrong, they were lovely engines (as nice as the 2.5) but teh reason dad didn't use a 4.5 back in the early 70's was because they were a bugger to get spares for then. Now days its impossible, literaly!!!!!
RW774 - I'll take heed of you point. I'm hoping that it wont be required but I'll keep your recommendation in mind. Believe me I'll be the first to admit i'm wrong should I fit one. I know from great experiance how these pumps can suffer. Its one of the first thing my dad does when he has a customer who can't start a daimler, so much so he always carrys one with him. We recently obtained a beautiful mk2 daimler saloon from an old customer of my dad who had past away. It had a virtually brand new pump fitted which had already burn't out through running dry. The old owner hadn't changed it because he'd assumed it couldn't be the new pump that was faulty. That was the only reason it hadn't been on teh road for 2 years. Such a shame because he'd really looked after it as well.
I'm assuming your father was a pre-British Leyland apprentice when Daimler was still Daimler Motor Company Ltd. Coventry. What a lucky man to work with such a prestigious car company back then. Just a shame that as with all British marques the management couldn't run the company right.
I am impressed with your knowledge of Daimler. Its a shame Lyons couldn't see fit to use the daimler lumps in his beloved jags otherwise the fortunes could have been very different for Jaguar in the 70's and 80's. He is supposed to have finally scrapped the engine usage when a 4.5 was fitted to a mk10 and out performed the jag version considerably. NVM, thats history.
I'm sure the fact that the engine was so costly to produce didnt help either. My father has got a full breakdown of the chemical values, etc of the metals used in the engine somewhere, he had a friend who worked for a petrol chemical company in the 70's to test it in their labs. I can't remember off the top of my head however what metals were used. All i can remember is the quality is extremely good, thus why they are so strong!
I think everyone can agree the Dart (though beautiful) was the death throws of the company. Thats why Jag brought out the version B straight after they bought Daimler because of the safety risks.
Anyway, as soon as we start getting things together I'll update people on progress.
Keep us all posted Andrew, I look forward to hearing more .My Father was indeed a pre Jag takeover apprentice, working on both leeve valve and pushrod 6 and 8s.Both he and his brother worked in a London Mews dealership in the late 40s/ early 50s.All that technology has now gone sadly. I used to know a guy in Romford who had much the same experience, he son was not interested in the his business ( world wide)and when he died, all the specialist tooling/ books etc were skipped.
Back to the 2.5 Rods and crank were Chrome Moly I think.Thats` why it was so damn dear to produce, same as the 4.5.This however was a stonker of a motor.So few were made under Jaguar leadership parts are a problem agreed.Ends are the same as one of the Cummins 6 cyl diesels, forged pistons and manufactured gaskets make it an expensive motor to build.
Back to the 2.5 Rods and crank were Chrome Moly I think.Thats` why it was so damn dear to produce, same as the 4.5.This however was a stonker of a motor.So few were made under Jaguar leadership parts are a problem agreed.Ends are the same as one of the Cummins 6 cyl diesels, forged pistons and manufactured gaskets make it an expensive motor to build.
sounds like a good project you have there, I am undertaking a similar project myself but on a ford pre cross-flow using an eaton M45 I have done some engine simulations on a piece of software called ricardo wave which was part of my dissertation for my degree.
I am now trying to progress to getting the injection flow rates and ignition curves calculated so that when I do have an ECU I will be able to get as decent base map made - is there anything you would recommend reading also do you have any information on injection spray angles as that's something I found difficult to get much information on
I am now trying to progress to getting the injection flow rates and ignition curves calculated so that when I do have an ECU I will be able to get as decent base map made - is there anything you would recommend reading also do you have any information on injection spray angles as that's something I found difficult to get much information on
Hi guys,
a8hex - a twin screw hasn't even been looked at if I'm compleately honest. We looked at Eatons primarily because we have been given a Jag unit from a 2002 XK which is vertually brand new! Then with a bit of digging found rebuilt secondhand M90's from the states which we can get imported for less than £200.
Purely on a financial basis they're exceptional value!
RW774 - What a shame all that equipment and books have gone. They'd be worth a small fortune now days, not to mention the technological insight to be gained.
Chrome Moly is correct!!! Much impressed. The only thing my dad did to make the engine take 1400BHP was to fill in the rods because he began to break them at 1000BHP, fit a 4 bolt main caps and Triumph Bonnie pistons to up the compression ratio for the race fuel. I'd like to see a "stock" engine obtain anywhere close to that nowdays practically as it left the factory!!! Even the yank and jap motors that get close to that tuned end up with aftermarket billet and machined everything specially designed to take the power.
Jimski - sounds like your in another world to us I'm afraid. Its a lovely piece of software from what chance i've had to look around it but alas am unable to obtain a copy. But you sound like you've studied mechanical sciences!!!! We're from the old school of 60's & 70's night school and self taught engineering. Its experiance and old school know-how which lines our roads. Any help you could offer us would be appreciated
As for flow rates and ignition curves its a case of hunting for similar horse power applications and finding the injectors to fit your needs from the field (We've ended up with mustang injectors). Flow rates are easily obtained then by hunting the part coding which will list a realm of information from everywhere inc. Bosch (if you use Bosch injectors then all the better). They can supply you all the info you need. Just drop them an email if you can't find it on their website. They are very helpful!!!!! Bosch may be able to reccomend an injector for you if you can supply them the info they need on application, dimensions, etc.
a8hex - a twin screw hasn't even been looked at if I'm compleately honest. We looked at Eatons primarily because we have been given a Jag unit from a 2002 XK which is vertually brand new! Then with a bit of digging found rebuilt secondhand M90's from the states which we can get imported for less than £200.
Purely on a financial basis they're exceptional value!
RW774 - What a shame all that equipment and books have gone. They'd be worth a small fortune now days, not to mention the technological insight to be gained.
Chrome Moly is correct!!! Much impressed. The only thing my dad did to make the engine take 1400BHP was to fill in the rods because he began to break them at 1000BHP, fit a 4 bolt main caps and Triumph Bonnie pistons to up the compression ratio for the race fuel. I'd like to see a "stock" engine obtain anywhere close to that nowdays practically as it left the factory!!! Even the yank and jap motors that get close to that tuned end up with aftermarket billet and machined everything specially designed to take the power.
Jimski - sounds like your in another world to us I'm afraid. Its a lovely piece of software from what chance i've had to look around it but alas am unable to obtain a copy. But you sound like you've studied mechanical sciences!!!! We're from the old school of 60's & 70's night school and self taught engineering. Its experiance and old school know-how which lines our roads. Any help you could offer us would be appreciated
As for flow rates and ignition curves its a case of hunting for similar horse power applications and finding the injectors to fit your needs from the field (We've ended up with mustang injectors). Flow rates are easily obtained then by hunting the part coding which will list a realm of information from everywhere inc. Bosch (if you use Bosch injectors then all the better). They can supply you all the info you need. Just drop them an email if you can't find it on their website. They are very helpful!!!!! Bosch may be able to reccomend an injector for you if you can supply them the info they need on application, dimensions, etc.
I have the little blue book written by Bosch which I would recommend if you have not got it already as it covers a whole spectrum of topics as well as engine data and calculations
As for my dissertation I used ricardo as a substitute for not being able to do my testing on a dynamometer as it was far too much money to keep taking the engine apart and changing components. The ethics behind it were to use tuning methods from the 60's when my cortina was new and apply some modern thinking such as fuel injection and discussing the potential to reduce emissions. I started by producing the engine in its standard format and then change the exhaust manifold lengths and ratio of lengths within a 4-2-1, 60's camshafts followed on, then the cylinder head was ported and polished by enlarging the ducts and reducing the friction multiplier that can be applied, twin dcoe carburettors were then modelled the same modelled was then modified so that the engine was then injected as if jenvey throttle bodies were used, I then produced a single throttle body and an inlet manifold that had calculated lengths and the final model was a supercharged model that used an Eaton M45 as it has the same displacement of air per cycle as a Shorrock c75 the first version of this emulated the shorrock kit that Allard used to supply in the 60's using a draw through carburettor and a second model that was injected and had an intercooler
As for my dissertation I used ricardo as a substitute for not being able to do my testing on a dynamometer as it was far too much money to keep taking the engine apart and changing components. The ethics behind it were to use tuning methods from the 60's when my cortina was new and apply some modern thinking such as fuel injection and discussing the potential to reduce emissions. I started by producing the engine in its standard format and then change the exhaust manifold lengths and ratio of lengths within a 4-2-1, 60's camshafts followed on, then the cylinder head was ported and polished by enlarging the ducts and reducing the friction multiplier that can be applied, twin dcoe carburettors were then modelled the same modelled was then modified so that the engine was then injected as if jenvey throttle bodies were used, I then produced a single throttle body and an inlet manifold that had calculated lengths and the final model was a supercharged model that used an Eaton M45 as it has the same displacement of air per cycle as a Shorrock c75 the first version of this emulated the shorrock kit that Allard used to supply in the 60's using a draw through carburettor and a second model that was injected and had an intercooler
. Any progress on the project? Hi Brian,
To be quite honest we're rushed off our feet at the moment.
Dad has finally realised he's not 20 anymore and has to start to take things at a relistic pace for a 64 year old.
So things have backed up a touch because of it.
I'm just about ready to start to put it all together, its just a matter of him having the time and energy to start work on the necessary mods to the inlet manifold, etc.
While at the Classic Car Show at the NEC this year we were kindly donated an original 1960's Manual fuel injection system that was in development. It runs along the lines of the motorbike throttle body conversions that are used these days on the megasquirt system. We've had a good look through it and have plans on making a demo engine with it when we've finished our first generation management system.
With us looking to take the race car out for a few meetings this year its slowly getting put back.
I'm impressed you noticed that we're looking to be at Nagstaligia at the Pod. How did you see that?
Its still unknown if we can run that weekend.
Dad's wanting to give me a go in the car so as long as I can fit in the car safely, I'll be on the lookout for a Nomex Racesuit. Should be a tidy sum, especially as I'm such a big bloke. We're hoping to be able to import one from the US. But gotta find one that will fit first.
Eitherway,
As soon as i can I'll update on my progress,
Andrew
To be quite honest we're rushed off our feet at the moment.
Dad has finally realised he's not 20 anymore and has to start to take things at a relistic pace for a 64 year old.
So things have backed up a touch because of it.
I'm just about ready to start to put it all together, its just a matter of him having the time and energy to start work on the necessary mods to the inlet manifold, etc.
While at the Classic Car Show at the NEC this year we were kindly donated an original 1960's Manual fuel injection system that was in development. It runs along the lines of the motorbike throttle body conversions that are used these days on the megasquirt system. We've had a good look through it and have plans on making a demo engine with it when we've finished our first generation management system.
With us looking to take the race car out for a few meetings this year its slowly getting put back.
I'm impressed you noticed that we're looking to be at Nagstaligia at the Pod. How did you see that?
Its still unknown if we can run that weekend.
Dad's wanting to give me a go in the car so as long as I can fit in the car safely, I'll be on the lookout for a Nomex Racesuit. Should be a tidy sum, especially as I'm such a big bloke. We're hoping to be able to import one from the US. But gotta find one that will fit first.
Eitherway,
As soon as i can I'll update on my progress,
Andrew
Edited by CarpenterRacing on Wednesday 5th January 19:14
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