Help Facel Vega, Facel 2

[rolymo]

While I was blasting around in the Facel-Vega HK500 having a great time. Remember this was before speed limits and the era of Supercars (even before the arrive of Muscle-cars).I was king of the road on my patch, even had a sniff at drag-racing at Long-Marston (Shakespear raceway). But it caused little ripples in my home :- kept getting niggles from the O/H like (you get all the fun!!. When am I going to get my own special car ? So, we went out and bought a "HIS & HERS" FACEL-VEGA FACELLIA 1600cc twin-cam for her to play with.

[facelman]

rolymo said:

While I was blasting around in the Facel-Vega HK500 having a great time. Remember this was before speed limits and the era of Supercars (even before the arrive of Muscle-cars).I was king of the road on my patch, even had a sniff at drag-racing at Long-Marston (Shakespear raceway). But it caused little ripples in my home :- kept getting niggles from the O/H like (you get all the fun!!. When am I going to get my own special car ? So, we went out and bought a "HIS & HERS" FACEL-VEGA FACELLIA 1600cc twin-cam for her to play with.

You will be happy to know that 399 VPB still exists.This is FAD 149 First owned by Mr Kent.Originally green paint and black leather.First reg 11 / 7 / 61.

[tonyvid]

Rolymo, do you still own the Facellia?

[facelman]

tonyvid said:

Rolymo, do you still own the Facellia?

No last owned by Manny motashaw.

[vixen1700]

facelman said:

No last owned by Manny motashaw.

Manny Motashaw's HK500 was the car we had for our wedding in 1998.

[d.wilde]

rolymo said:

One day while discussing exotic automobiles the name Facel Vega came up and my client informed me that he owned the original 1959 Show Car that he purchased off the stand at Earls Court (The Annual Motor Show was originally held at Earls Court in London), apparently it was painted light duck egg blue, a deal was made on condition that the car was repainted in British Racing Green before delivery to the purchaser.

Here is an original picture of the 59 London Motor Show car. Chassis number HK V2 white with red leather and manual trans.

Are you sure that it is the same car ? Yours has beige leather.

[theadman]

What a brilliant period picture, d.wilde.

Does anyone have any more of the various Facel UK motor show stands over the years? It would be interesting to know how many of the show cars still survive, particularly given the comments earlier in the thread about these cars not having any form of sealant as it used to run under the heat of the lights.

[d.wilde]

I also have a picture of the 58 Earls Court show with HK F1, Turquoise with with gold interior. This car is also reputed written off.

[d.wilde]

This one could be HK2B147 (red met. / beige int) during the 63 Earls Court show next to a Facel III.

[d.wilde]

These pictures are very rare and came recently on the net. They were taken by an american who work for the Ford Advanced Design Studio.

Paris Motor Show 1954 (Facel prototype) Note the low roof line.




Paris Motor Show 1955 (Facel FV2)

Edited by d.wilde on Thursday 14th November 16:39

[Bob CD]

A couple of points to be made here regarding HK500 chassis number F1. That was, indeed, the London Motor Show car according to the 'bible', Hans Ruhe's directory, but in 1958, not 1959 as rolymo suggested. Our esteemed historian, Richard Stevens, is aware that it was written off, as he was told by rolymo, although quite a long time ago and not with quite the detail mentioned here.

Finally, the Dupont transmission mentioned by rolymo is probably a misunderstanding regarding the Pont-a-Mousson manual transmission used throughout Facels and which, as any Facel enthusiast knows, caused the company to fold due to the excessive number of warranty claims - latterly unjustified - made against the 1600cc engine that they built for the Facellia.

[theadman]

Thanks for the additional motor show pictures...they really show how much the world has changed in the last 50 years (not surprisingly)!

[facelman]

Bob CD said:

A couple of points to be made here regarding HK500 chassis number F1. That was, indeed, the London Motor Show car according to the 'bible', Hans Ruhe's directory, but in 1958, not 1959 as rolymo suggested. Our esteemed historian, Richard Stevens, is aware that it was written off, as he was told by rolymo, although quite a long time ago and not with quite the detail mentioned here.

Finally, the Dupont transmission mentioned by rolymo is probably a misunderstanding regarding the Pont-a-Mousson manual transmission used throughout Facels and which, as any Facel enthusiast knows, caused the company to fold due to the excessive number of warranty claims - latterly unjustified - made against the 1600cc engine that they built for the Facellia.

"laterly unjustified"? lol read the book Bob.

[Bob CD]

John, you know a lot more about this than I do, therefore I bow to your superior knowledge. Being in Sao Paulo, I don't have 'the book' but I always thought that initially there were perfectly justified claims against the engine manufacturers because of burnt pistons but when Pont-a-Mousson cured the problem, lots of owners simply made warranty claims for new engines because they could, even though the problem had been cured. I thought this is what brought down the company, but it seems I'm wrong. Tell the story.

[facelman]

Bob CD said:

John, you know a lot more about this than I do, therefore I bow to your superior knowledge. Being in Sao Paulo, I don't have 'the book' but I always thought that initially there were perfectly justified claims against the engine manufacturers because of burnt pistons but when Pont-a-Mousson cured the problem, lots of owners simply made warranty claims for new engines because they could, even though the problem had been cured. I thought this is what brought down the company, but it seems I'm wrong. Tell the story.

Whatever makes you think that Pont a Mousson cured the problem [ s ] ? The book details in wonderful clarity the day to day battle to keep facel afloat.Putting aside the FACT that facel lost money on every car ever sold [ from day one with the FV in 1955] The disaster of the PAM engine was compounded by the warranty claims from the V8 owners of manual gearbox cars.A famous and very heated exchange at a meeting between PAM and Facel resulted in Belin deciding straight away to never supply a manual V8 again,only automatic was to be offered.The fact [ oft repeated ] that some PAM engines stayed together is simply the exception proving the rule.Even by the standards of the day the PAM was noisy,fumey and unreliable,and I can well understand an owner demanding a new engine when it was announced that all the problems had been cured even if he had not actually suffered a major breakdown with his engine.I would have done the same.

[Tom hk]

Dear facelman ,could you please explain what problems there was with the Pam gearboxes on the v8 cars .after reading Fred hobs book I was under the impression he persuaded the factory to modify the machining of the radius on the gears which improved the strength of the gears which stopped them failing, I thought that the gearbox was meant to be a reasonably strong unit as it was originally built for a commercial vehicle ,as you have had more experience than any one else with facels can you tell us which v8 manual facels would give cause for concern and if the box was improved after a certain time when that was and if there is any way of telling ,and also if HWM improved them did they put any mark or code on the box to say it had been done.
Regards .Tom (59 manual 6.3 )

[facelman]

Tom hk said:

Dear facelman ,could you please explain what problems there was with the Pam gearboxes on the v8 cars .after reading Fred hobs book I was under the impression he persuaded the factory to modify the machining of the radius on the gears which improved the strength of the gears which stopped them failing, I thought that the gearbox was meant to be a reasonably strong unit as it was originally built for a commercial vehicle ,as you have had more experience than any one else with facels can you tell us which v8 manual facels would give cause for concern and if the box was improved after a certain time when that was and if there is any way of telling ,and also if HWM improved them did they put any mark or code on the box to say it had been done.
Regards .Tom (59 manual 6.3 )

You really should read the facel book.Full accounts of meetings between facel and PAM make the problems clear. There were four different PAM boxes for Facel starting with the Comet 1.Comet 1 has an aluminium case so is easily recognised.This box is stretched with anything over 200 BHP.Later changes to the PAM box were concerned really with making them cheaper to repair rather than making them stronger.PAMs argument with facel was that pam had been asked to supply boxes for an engine with a certain torque and power rating.As the engines got progressively more powerful ending up with some 400 BHP at the end,the PAM box was totally unable to take the power.The Comet 4 box was the best because it was the cheapest to repair AT THE TIME [ when new parts were available ] The manufacture of a two piece laygear meant that the garage had usually only to buy two gears instead of all four.HWM did no work at all to improve the boxes,although they may have advised clients to take it easy pulling away.Probably one in every two PAM boxes after 1959 would have had broken gears at one time or another.PAM used a cutter to machine the gearteeth which left two straight lines at the base of the teeth in other words a stress raiser.The teeth obligingly broke off at the dotted line as it were.The business provided by Facel was by no means great enough to persuade PAM to retool to do the job properly.There is also another design fault in the mainshaft which we cured years ago.All in all if you have a gearbox in good working order all you can do is treat it carefully and not drive like a cowboy.Your box if original to the car is probably a comet 3.

[Tom hk]

Thank you for very informative reply John , The reason I thought HWM modified the gearboxes was because I am sure I read somewhere that Fred Hobs did start to modify the gears where they were prone to breaking and eventually PAM supplied them with the upgraded gears I will have to read the book again sometime. Dukes of hazard/ Smokey and the bandit driving style is not my thing ! So when my car is eventually on the road I will be sympathetic to its limitations.Have you ever fitted a more stronger box to a facel or converted one to hydraulic clutch operation ? Also did the rear axles ever have power lock ltd slip diffs fitted.
I see Justin needs to be congratulated on the sale of his facel 2 at Bonhams seems like a very realistic if not cheap price for the car when compared to the unbelievable prices of some of the vehicles £1.6 million plus buyers premium for a converted car transporter ! David Churchill of Autoinvest writes very interesting and amusing market comments on his company's website about these high prices .
Tom .hk

[Elderly]

Tom hk said:

I see Justin needs to be congratulated on the sale of his facel 2 at Bonhams seems like a very realistic if not cheap price for the car .......

In so many cases I just don't see the justification for a 'provenance premium' -
you bet that a drum kit once owned by Jean Danino wouldn't sell for a premium .

[justin-banks]

Hi All,
I dont actually believe the Ringo ownership added much to the value, if anything. Eric who owned the car before me wasn't the slightest bit interested in the Beatles. That car was the only one with the big engine and manual box, It certainly has an interesting story, which helps, but the car itself was rare and special and deserved the price, It was actually about the same as a "normal" RHD currently advertised.
Justin