Only the middle class can’t afford babies

[GingerNinja]

TeamD said:

And you would replace it with? A country full of bitter old spinsters and pissed up old codgers. Very positive.

So no kids automatically equals bitterness and alcholism? I think my comments about social programming have just been supported - thanks.

[xm5er]

TeamD said:

GingerNinja said: And that's a bad thing? It amazes me that the default option for nearly everyone I know is: get job, get married, have kids. It seems that most people still struggle to escape their social and biological programming. And you would replace it with? A country full of bitter old spinsters and pissed up old codgers. Very positive.

He's ginger and doesnt want kids, I'd say thats a positive thing.

[TeamD]

GingerNinja said:

TeamD said: And you would replace it with? A country full of bitter old spinsters and pissed up old codgers. Very positive. So no kids automatically equals bitterness and alcholism? I think my comments about social programming have just been supported - thanks.

Yeah right, so what do we aspire to be then? Other, that is, than what we are supposed to be? To quit breeding is species suicide go ask a giant panda, it's just a bugger to find just the right amount of bamboo thicket to snare that panda babe these days y'know? You wouldn't happen to work for Greenpeace would you? You know how the argument goes, "The earth would be such a paradise if it weren't for all the human beings fking it up, apart from us of course, [NeilMode]we're the guardians of the planet, the earth mother, she like, neeeeds us[/NeilMode]."

[jacko lah]

It's okay that highly paid people get to pontificate, but the simple reasons for the middle classes not being able to afford kids, is all down the house prices, salaries and student debt.

If I compare my parents when they were my age, they were able to buy a 4 bed house which was twice my dad's wages, I'd need 10 times my wages to buy the same house. (it was up for sale recently)

If I earned more, then my wife would give up work and we'd have another 2 or 3 kids to go with the 2 we have.

[stevieb]

havoc said:

Missed this thread yesterday, but it sums up EXACTLY where me and Becs are:- - We're getting married this year; - We're looking to move out of Coventry next year - not bringing a kid (or two) up there...this will mean doubling our mortgage however; - We've just got to the position where we can afford the nice things in life (I've just put a deposit on an S2000 for the weekends for us, we've started holidaying outside of 'Mediterranean package deal' territory). And we don't want to stop just when we've started enjoying such things. But if we have kids, we're going to lose THOUSANDS in income. The S2000 will have to go, the holidays will be camping in Europe at best, the new house will be a burden not a home. Either that or Becs goes back to work full time ASAP and someone else brings up OUR child in some communal creche where he/she will get minimal attention. Call me old-fashioned but that doesn't seem right. So what are we going to do? I'm leaning against having children, because I'm selfish, because I'm not ready for that burden, and because I'm generally worried about bringing a child into a country which is clearly in social decline. Becs is leaning strongly towards kid(s) in a few years, but we still cannot resolve how to look after it/them - my parents are >100miles away, hers are already 45mins away and will be more if we move closer to my work (current plan), and good childcare would eat up 75% of Becs' net salary.

This is the main reason why the middle class are not having kids is because they do not want the Burden, Finacial penalties, loss of cherishable cars, lack of money etc.

Unfortunately if you want something so much then you would make the sacrifices for it, but in the case of children it just show that many people are not will to make the sacrifice as a child will put them in a poor financial situation.

I can remember who mentined about Chav kids, but to be honest i live on a nice estate with a few apartment block 3 to 5 bed detached houses. The worst kids on the estate are those from 2 parent families where both parents are working all the hours to make sure they have enough money. If people would take a step back from this materialist attitude then they could find other ways of having pleasure in there life, rather than the expensive cars and expensive holidays etc.

You are all complaining about single mothers getting benifits etc not everyone is as furtunate to live in a economically developed area, have high employment. If you speak to these people you will find that in most cases they would love to work but are caught in the benifit trap and cannot get out. I admit there are people out there that do take advantage of the system, but they cannot be blame for a the middle class not having kids.

Before you all come back I live in surrey, on £30k plus a year, age 26 and have 2 kids, i have made the sacrifices already.

[filmidget]

I guess aimed more at Havoc/timmy30 (and similar):

Firstly while not having kids to keep your lifestyle might be called selfish, to me it's a 'good' selfish, 'cos it shows that when/if you do have kids, they will come first, not your lifestyle

Not sure whether myself and wife had a Lower Middle or Working Class income - still Med holidays and no news cars, but high enough to not receive any kind of benefits pre- or post kids... We also decided that we didn't want to put our child(ren) into child care, at least until a good nursery stage.

We decided to get married and let nature take it's course regarding kids thinking it might take months or years. We didn't expect to have a very 'successful' honeymoon And expected even less to have twins

Two years on and any kind of lifestyle is a distant memory, and times have been hard - and to be quite honest it's worth it. In hindsight, we perhaps should have waited/prepared a little more (at least waiting 'til recovering for paying for a medium cost wedding), but I think if you wait until you are TOTALLY prepared, you will never get there.

And it's not for that long - at 2 years old, the wife is now working part-time evenings/weekends and things are now a little more comfortable. Besides we were so busy we didn't have time for a lifestyle anyway!

However, as we have twins, we qualify for help from Homestart (set up to help single parents, 'disadvantaged'(?) families and the like) and the things we have seen there are infuriating to say the least, and make us wonder why we bothered going to college/uni, working hard, etc.

Edit for typos.

>> Edited by filmidget on Monday 27th February 13:02

[Yugguy]

aye said:

The worst kids on the estate are those from 2 parent families where both parents are working all the hours to make sure they have enough money. If people would take a step back from this materialist attitude then they could find other ways of having pleasure in there life, rather than the expensive cars and expensive holidays etc.

Aye, I took a pay cut of several grand to get out of a 12 hr a day job to one of 7 hrs so that I'd actually have a chance to see my little girl grow up. But we are stretching ourselves just to have one and it is annoying seeing feckless chavs with no self-respect or responsibility living it large on handouts.

[sputnik]

filmidget said:

...And it's not for that long - at 2 years old, the wife is now working part-time evenings/weekends and things are now a little more comfortable. Besides we were so busy we didn't have time for a lifestyle anyway!

Whaaaat - your missus is two years old

[stevieb]

Tonker,

The youths i am on about are disrespectful, into drugs, have photos and videos of them breaking into cars at a supermarket, punching and fighting with poeple walking past them. So i think they are the typical yobs that the blair governemtn want to slap ASBO's on. I know everything is relative to one another and for this area i would consider this theworst it can get, but for other city suberbs it may be nothing on comparison.

I thankfully live outside the M25 and i dont rent a family home. I am just making end meet and keeping a roof over my head but i will not change having kids, i am at the bottom of the food chain at work, so the money can only get better with time.

got to soilder on.

Steve

[pdV6]

stevieb said:

Before you all come back I live in surrey, on £30k plus a year, age 26 and have 2 kids, i have made the sacrifices already.

That's great. The only thing I'd enquire is: if you had to buy your house today (assuming you own it) could you afford to?

[stevieb]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

#
Unfortunately the governemnt has scored another own goal, rather than a prgressive decrease in beifit for poeple who decide to go back to work, most of there benifits stop so they are put in hardship. Due to this many of them cannot be bother to even try as the policies are against them.

[havoc]

pdV6 said:

stevieb said: Before you all come back I live in surrey, on £30k plus a year, age 26 and have 2 kids, i have made the sacrifices already. That's great. The only thing I'd enquire is: if you had to buy your house today (assuming you own it) could you afford to?

Very good question.

The difference between people who got on the housing market over 6/7 years ago and those who recently joined is so marked as to be silly. Our properly has nearly doubled in value in 5 years, but it's in Coventry, so that's now 2 x bugger-all.

flimidget - absolutely. If you're going to do something, do it properly (hence the moving to a nicer place, ideally semi-rural (NOT suburbia if we can help it)). Thanks for the vote of confidence.

[stevieb]

pdV6 said:

stevieb said: Before you all come back I live in surrey, on £30k plus a year, age 26 and have 2 kids, i have made the sacrifices already. That's great. The only thing I'd enquire is: if you had to buy your house today (assuming you own it) could you afford to?

I am only 26 and have never owned a house in surrey. but i am in the process of looking at a 3 bed semi To be honest i think i could afford to buy a house in the area where i live for around £225k, but i already own a house up north with no mortgage, so have in excess of 90k as a deposit, so securing a house is not my main concern.

[stevieb]

Tonker,

I am not going to get to deep into this but, if people are going to stay on benifit, well i think they should work for it. reduce the incentive of them getting nothing for free. make them work in the public sector i.e. hospital helpers (showing paitents around etc), in council offices etc, make them do work that fits in with there life (kids etc). so they are still gaining life skills, while on benifits which should help them when they kids have grown up and so preparing them to support them selves once again.

Steve

[havoc]

I agree with tonker. I got on the ladder at 26 after scraping together a bare-10% deposit on a cheap house in Cov. I wished I'd got on sooner with a 5% deposit and a slightly higher interest rate, but there we go (a friend did and has an extra £20k in capital on me - hell of a return on making a decision 2 years early!!!).

As for a £30k salary...if that's a single-income for a family, I'd be wanting a mortgage no greater than £400-500pcm, or £65-80k. Nowhere near enough for a house anywhere in the country, let alone Surrey.

But that in itself exemplifies the problem - a £30k salary is a little above average, IIRC, yet it's nothing in comparison to house prices - need a 5x multiplier to get anything half-decent nowadays, and that'd stretch a family to breaking point, even without any potential interest rate rises.
Ridiculous state of affairs which this government have presided over - Emperor Nero Blair must be proud!!!

[s2art]

havoc said:

I agree with tonker. I got on the ladder at 26 after scraping together a bare-10% deposit on a cheap house in Cov. I wished I'd got on sooner with a 5% deposit and a slightly higher interest rate, but there we go (a friend did and has an extra £20k in capital on me - hell of a return on making a decision 2 years early!!!). As for a £30k salary...if that's a single-income for a family, I'd be wanting a mortgage no greater than £400-500pcm, or £65-80k. Nowhere near enough for a house anywhere in the country, let alone Surrey. But that in itself exemplifies the problem - a £30k salary is a little above average, IIRC, yet it's nothing in comparison to house prices - need a 5x multiplier to get anything half-decent nowadays, and that'd stretch a family to breaking point, even without any potential interest rate rises. Ridiculous state of affairs which this government have presided over - Emperor Nero Blair must be proud!!!

The thing is with the 5X multiplier is that with interest rates as low as today, the amount paid back per month as a percentage of earnings is no worse that a few years ago with only 3.5 X earnings.

I cant find the figures but I think that there have been plenty of periods in the past few decades where, due to high interest rates, mortgage repayments have been even worse than today.

Not that I disagree with the sentiments expressed, its just not a new problem.

[GingerNinja]

TeamD said:

GingerNinja said: TeamD said: And you would replace it with? A country full of bitter old spinsters and pissed up old codgers. Very positive. So no kids automatically equals bitterness and alcholism? I think my comments about social programming have just been supported - thanks. Yeah right, so what do we aspire to be then? Other, that is, than what we are supposed to be? To quit breeding is species suicide go ask a giant panda, it's just a bugger to find just the right amount of bamboo thicket to snare that panda babe these days y'know? You wouldn't happen to work for Greenpeace would you? You know how the argument goes, "The earth would be such a paradise if it weren't for all the human beings fking it up, apart from us of course, [NeilMode]we're the guardians of the planet, the earth mother, she like, neeeeds us[/NeilMode]."

At what point did I suggest we all stop breeding?

I was simply pointing out that NOT having kids is seen as a failure as if that's the pinnacle of our existence. Judging by the quality of your arguments and responses, managing to get someone pregnant will indeed be the height of your achievements on this planet.

[s2art]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

But that is my point. The same thing has been true many times in the past few decades. Actually one of the big problems today is the very low inflation (generally a damn good thing, but it changes the situation a bit).
In the past with inflation a few percent higher (often many points higher), if you could hang on a few years the capital outstanding got less and less of a problem. Basically due to wage inflation in line with general inflation.

[timmy30]

[redacted]

[havoc]

[redacted]