Time for a regime change? N. Korea....
Discussion
Oakey said:
You know, Saddam might not have done things nicely, but at least he was effective, and the US are no different to Saddam except they outsource their torturing.
Quite the most ignorant, uninformed, rabidly biased and downright stupid post I have seen on here in a very long time...
The US, like the UK and other democracies are entirely different to Saddam Hussein. I don't recall many Iraqi torturers being prosecuted by the Iraqi Government for their crimes. The US and UK take action and prosecute against our own soldiers who abuse prisoners.
I'm not sure when the last time the US Government tried to gas the inhabitants of a one of its states, as Saddam did with the Kurds. Perhaps you can enlighten me?
As far as I am aware, Bush's kids don't get to use US Government money to fund their grossly excessive lifestyles, while developing a nice line in extreme violence, rape, torture and abuse. Qusay and Uday did exactly that and worse, sanctioned by their father.
No different to the US? Get some perspective.
Edited by alexkp on Thursday 5th October 10:09
twit said:
Hmmm... What gives us the right to change regimes cos we don't like them?
It's so ironic when democracy is forced upon you.
Anyway...
The situation in North Korea is a strange one. It is not called "The Hermit Kingdom" for nothing. Access in and out is strictly limited, probably on a par with the Cold War-era USSR. Visiting journalists are accompanied by "attendants" at all times. Due to this severe gap between DPRK and the outside world, plus Kim's Juche philosophy and the "leader cult" begun by Il-Sung and enthusiastically fed by his son Jong-Il, it is very likely indeed that the North Korean people do not actually think that their leaders are bad. From the (admittedly very few) reports that I've read, the North Koreans seem actually to hold Kim in quite high regard...but then again, when you've never had any other kind of government and never see anything of the world outside North Korea, then you probably do start to believe the government when they tell you that Kim, Jong-Il got a score of 18 in his first ever game of golf, that he wrote operas at the age of 4, that every other leader in the world thinks he is incredible, that North Korea is the envy of the modern world. There is a very real chance that, should North Korea be attacked, the people would rally round the government due to so many years of what is effectively brainwashing. Add to this the fact that DPRK has (I think) the largest standing army in the world, and it is no easy nut to crack.
With no (current) nuclear capability, no apparent desire for expansion or hostility and - perhaps more tellingly - no vast reserves of natural resources, I don't think North Korea features very highly on GWB's wish list.
Incidentally, why is it that all countries with "Democratic" in their name...aren't? Do they think really they're fooling anyone by putting it there?
Wacky Racer said:
I am sure I read somewhere that Seoul (South Korea) possibly could be hit by a retalitory strike of 500,000 carefully concealed (many underground) conventional shells in the first hour if the US launched a pre-emptive strike on North Korea....
This is the one issue that is stopping a military solution at the moment. There are estimated to be roughly 12,000 artillery pieces in range of Seoul. The NK army would be swept from the map with reasonable ease but the cost would be the destruction of the SK capital.
SK are currently building a new capital city much further south out of the range of artillery. This is pushing the north to further devlop their missiles and test their nuclear capability.
The real trouble with NK is that Kim is truly bonkers - like the leader of Turkmenistan. At least the Iranians are somewhat rational.
Their official news site is worth a read: www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm
Anyone on here defending the right of the NK regime to exist should be ashamed of themselves. Millions have starved to death in the last 10 years for the political expediency of their leader.
k Yeah!Phil Hopkins said:
swilly said:
twit said:
hmmm... What gives us the right to change regimes cos we don't like them?
Big sticks and lots of them
That gives us the ability, not the right.
Within a society or group with laws and customs, i'd agree.
But in international terms, each country is sovereign and the ability conveys the right.
Witchfinder said:
twit said:
Hmmm... What gives us the right to change regimes cos we don't like them?
Not because we don't like them, because they are dangerously unstable and agressive, and dangerous to our safety, freedom and way of life.
"Rather them than us" is what gives us the right.
Really? And how does NK fit into that?
Unstable - no, stable government for years, not democratic, but stable.
Agressive - no, defensive posturing but they don't appear to be seriously expansionist.
Our safety/freedom/etc - no, I hear nothing from NK saying they want to destroy the Western way of life.
NK appear to be worried about attack and are posturing as well as they can to show they have the capabitlity to defend and retaliate. Anyway, the US doesn't have the resources for another war at the moment and hopefully the UK wouldn't follow them in anyway.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I was refering to extraordinary rendition. As for prosecuting soldiers who abuse prisoners? No shit, not like they have any other choice when there are photos of the acts splashed across the front of newspapers. Of course, if these things had never come to light chances are they'd still be going on.
said:
I'm not sure when the last time the US Government tried to gas the inhabitants of a one of its states, as Saddam did with the Kurds. Perhaps you can enlighten me?
Maybe not, but they used white phosphorous in Fallujah though did they not?
said:
As far as I am aware, Bush's kids don't get to use US Government money to fund their grossly excessive lifestyles, while developing a nice line in extreme violence, rape, torture and abuse. Qusay and Uday did exactly that and worse, sanctioned by their father.
Is the current situation any better than it was previously, that was my point. Is it better or worse after Saddam? Police forces co-operating with death squads, people being carted off and later turning up dead, it sounds so much better than the previous regime doesn't it?
Edited by Oakey on Thursday 5th October 10:35
tinman0 said:
Dakkon said:
There are a hell of a lot more N.Korean's to fight back, could get very messy might turn out like the last time.
i cant see the people of north korea fighting back. they know they've got a pretty wretched life. a liberator is going to have a pretty easy job.
So why did they fight the last time?
Witchfinder said:
Not because we don't like them, because they are dangerously unstable and agressive, and dangerous to our safety, freedom and way of life.
Are they?
From a stability point of view we have made Iraq much much worse. N Korea is no threat to us at all, or certainly no more of threat than it has been for years. This is all about the current US regime's need to dominate that that it does not understand. Using the criteria above I would argue the US falls nicely into target so do we support change there by force? I suspect most people would support change...
Dakkon said:
tinman0 said:
Dakkon said:
There are a hell of a lot more N.Korean's to fight back, could get very messy might turn out like the last time.
i cant see the people of north korea fighting back. they know they've got a pretty wretched life. a liberator is going to have a pretty easy job.
So why did they fight the last time?
They got their butts kicked by McArthur and Co - it was the Chinese that pushed the UN back to the 38th parallel
Idlehands said:
Dakkon said:
tinman0 said:
Dakkon said:
There are a hell of a lot more N.Korean's to fight back, could get very messy might turn out like the last time.
i cant see the people of north korea fighting back. they know they've got a pretty wretched life. a liberator is going to have a pretty easy job.
So why did they fight the last time?
They got their butts kicked by McArthur and Co - it was the Chinese that pushed the UN back to the 38th parallel
Indeed, but would China help again?
twit said:
Witchfinder said:
Not because we don't like them, because they are dangerously unstable and agressive, and dangerous to our safety, freedom and way of life.
Are they?
...oh, you want some evidence?
Uh...
OK, here's some PhD student's paper I found on the internet that says they have the ability to launch warheads on the UK in 45 minutes.
Satisfied?
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Since 2002 100 prisoners have died in US custody in Iraq/Afghanistan, 34 killings caused by intentional or reckless behaviour, another 11 suspicious and 12 tortured to death. How many successful prosecutions have we seen ?
It doesn't matter shit what saddam did before, if the US want to install a fair and democratic society (fat chance) then they have to import western values when dealing with prisoners otherwise they're just going to be pissing in the wind.
Anyone who adopts the 'N Korea good because America bad' view being esposed by some posters here either needs their bumps felt or should be made to live in NK for a bit.
The USSR under Stalin and the NKVD doesn't even come close in the oppression stakes to NK.
Get real - just because America doesn't like it that doesn't automatically mean it's a good thing.
The USSR under Stalin and the NKVD doesn't even come close in the oppression stakes to NK.
Get real - just because America doesn't like it that doesn't automatically mean it's a good thing.
Edited by Nick_F on Thursday 5th October 14:33
Witchfinder said:
Given half a chance they'd invade and conquer Sourth Korea (and more besides). They hate the West and see us as an enemy. Indulging them would be foolish.
I really don't agree. There is no instance in recorded history of Korea, in any of its incarnations, ever having invaded anyone (the Korean War was an internal conflict that was effectively America vs. Russia and China) - still less since the end of the Korean War.
Remember, like most dictators, Kim, Jong-Il has it pretty sweet. He's got buckets of unchallenged power, a loyal, well-fed, happy army that will do his bidding, a big DVD collection and all the platform shoes he can wear. All he personally wants to do is to keep that power. Actually, he has it sweeter than most dictators, because he doesn't need to impress the populace or use a war to get them to vote for him, because there'is no vote, and they don't know what's going on in the outside world anyway. So why risk all that just to attack someone?
Besides, if DPRK were to attack anyone, where would they go? China? Russia? They're not going to bite the hand that feeds. Japan? Too far away to invade, and utterly unfeasible besides. South Korea? They know damn well the US would stamp on them as hard and as fast as they could...and both North and South have declared their desire for reunification - not invasion - anyway.
All Kim's sabre-rattling and posturing is just his way of being heard and keeping the aid - which feeds that precious army of his - coming in. He would never, never actually attack.
Did anyone see that bbc (I think?) documentary behind the scence in North Korea a couple of years ago, you can't imagine the HATE those little kids had for america. They are brainwashed on a barely believable scale and would probably be far more fantatical than any devout jihadi could hope to be. North Korea also has a standing army of over a million, their entire existence has pretty much been built on expecting a massive war with the US/South, which is why their country is crumbling and why they are trying to provoke a war, it's all they have, without it they are nothing back a backwater craphole.
www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82755
This thread is really interesting, lots of pics that shouldn't have been taken in NK (not allowed), see the beach ones for instance
This thread is really interesting, lots of pics that shouldn't have been taken in NK (not allowed), see the beach ones for instance
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