Discussion
Fascinating to read about your story 10ps. You do seem to represent potentially any of us who could be 'making progress' at the wrong time.
So to clarify, when you lost control:
And then the biker hit you straight away after your spin?
Or was it a few seconds after?
What was the subsequent reaction on the Honda site, especially of the people who were actually on the scene?
So to clarify, when you lost control:
10 Pence Short said:
As the back of the car began to slide, I'd turned into it and applied as much power as I could get, trying to bring the car back around. Despite the huge, almost 90 degree angle of slide, the car had slowed almost to a halt by the time of the impact. When the impact occured, I was still on the throttle pedal, the front wheels were lifted, spun, gained traction and spat me onto the nearside verge.
You mentioned that it was concluded that you weren't speeding so I assume it was just a case of going too fast for the bend and losing the back?And then the biker hit you straight away after your spin?
Or was it a few seconds after?
What was the subsequent reaction on the Honda site, especially of the people who were actually on the scene?
Muzzer said:
You mentioned that it was concluded that you weren't speeding so I assume it was just a case of going too fast for the bend and losing the back?
And then the biker hit you straight away after your spin?
Or was it a few seconds after?
What was the subsequent reaction on the Honda site, especially of the people who were actually on the scene?
It wasn't concluded that I wasn't speeding, just that it wasn't possible to use skid marks from rotating wheels to work out the speed. It was my assertion that at that particular point in the road (NSL), it would be very difficult to have been going over the posted limit. For obvious reasons I wasn't looking at my speedo at the time!And then the biker hit you straight away after your spin?
Or was it a few seconds after?
What was the subsequent reaction on the Honda site, especially of the people who were actually on the scene?
The collision happened as I was still skidding, at 90 degrees to the direction of travel, albeit slowly. Trying to regain control and the impact happened as one event, all I saw was a quick flash of the biker then felt the impact. The airbags deployed and it took me quite a few seconds in the car to get my breath back. It was very, very strange- my immediete thought as the car halted and I couldn't breath was that the impact had somehow smashed my ribcage.
There wasn't a great deal of reaction on the Honda site, as it was obviously the beginning of a legal process and not something to be discussed on an open intrnet forum.
Worth noting that it happened on a road you knew well as well - was it a case of familiarity breeding contempt if you know what I mean (ie you knew how fast you can take that corner, so you tried a bit harder/faster) or was it a case of same speed different conditions (colder/wetter/car in different condition)?
hoora henry, very sad to read your post, I don't even know you but the thought of you commiting suicide made me gasp. You need to forgive yourself for what has happened, taking your own life will not change anything that has happened, it may be a release for you but it would have a dramatic impact on your family. Have you had any councelling in the last 14 years?
Bing o said:
Worth noting that it happened on a road you knew well as well - was it a case of familiarity breeding contempt if you know what I mean (ie you knew how fast you can take that corner, so you tried a bit harder/faster) or was it a case of same speed different conditions (colder/wetter/car in different condition)?
It was more of the former than the latter.10 Pence Short said:
In the next 2.5 miles I overtook the four cars, one of whom overtook the others in the most dangerous way I've ever seen on that road (as in crawling past a car doing 40mph at 42mph whilst approaching a blind bend)...........
The final straw in the witness evidence was from a man in a Mondeo, the final car I overtook before losing control, an elderly man and his wife who'd been driving for years and years with an unblemished record. He was the car I described earlier as overtaking insanely, which he did twice. He, and then corroborated by his wife, claimed I had overtaken him around a blind right hand bend and immediately lost control in front of him. It simply wasn't true. I'd overtaken him about 1/4 of a mile beforehand, on the exit of a left hand bend. Nobody actually witnessed me beginning to lose control because no cars were close enough to see me, as the bends behind me obscured vision.
I was given the opportunity under Police interview to watch a run done by a Police car up the same route, so I could point out exactly where I had overtaken the man in his Mondeo. On the first run of the video I did exactly that. It wass noted in the interview that I'd done that and that it matched my description from my first interview, done some 3 months earlier.
The reponse from the investigating officers was to sit on that information for 5 months, until I was comitted to Crown Court, then they took the video of the run to the old mans house and asked him and his wife to point out where I'd overtaken them, 10 months earlier. They did not share my viewpoint.
Not saying you were an angel that day 10PS, but this part of the story really makes me sick. The fact that a driver who IS plainly dangerous on the roads can lie to the police to have another driver convicted of the same offence of which he is guilty.The final straw in the witness evidence was from a man in a Mondeo, the final car I overtook before losing control, an elderly man and his wife who'd been driving for years and years with an unblemished record. He was the car I described earlier as overtaking insanely, which he did twice. He, and then corroborated by his wife, claimed I had overtaken him around a blind right hand bend and immediately lost control in front of him. It simply wasn't true. I'd overtaken him about 1/4 of a mile beforehand, on the exit of a left hand bend. Nobody actually witnessed me beginning to lose control because no cars were close enough to see me, as the bends behind me obscured vision.
I was given the opportunity under Police interview to watch a run done by a Police car up the same route, so I could point out exactly where I had overtaken the man in his Mondeo. On the first run of the video I did exactly that. It wass noted in the interview that I'd done that and that it matched my description from my first interview, done some 3 months earlier.
The reponse from the investigating officers was to sit on that information for 5 months, until I was comitted to Crown Court, then they took the video of the run to the old mans house and asked him and his wife to point out where I'd overtaken them, 10 months earlier. They did not share my viewpoint.
hoora henry said:
I could tell you how i know for sure i'll end my own life...
Lives were ruined that night by one act of gross stupidity, People have paid the price for my actions
You're a fool if you think more lives won't be ruined by you taking your own, even under such terrible circumstances.Lives were ruined that night by one act of gross stupidity, People have paid the price for my actions
You owe it to the girl who died to yourself to live both her and your own life to the fullest. Get out and get involved with some support groups, that's how to pay back the price that you think you must pay.
I read the start of this in SP&L and have only now finished reading it upto date. Thank you 10PS. What you've done takes serious balls. This is without doubt the most thought provoking thread i have read anywhere on the internet. Your postings and the images of your car will be in my mind whenever i find myself feeling like a hoon.
I think we're all in agreement that were it not for different circumstances, this could be any one of us. Please find someone to publish it all, it really really does make for very sobering reading. Thank you.
I think we're all in agreement that were it not for different circumstances, this could be any one of us. Please find someone to publish it all, it really really does make for very sobering reading. Thank you.
A very sad story for all concerned.
The motor-cyclist appears to have been driving at a speed between 30mph and 60mph acording to earlier posts.
From the information given on the thread, it appears that he would have still collided with 10pence even if he'd been driving at 20mph.
However I'm pretty confident that his injuries would have been a lot less severe if he'd been travelling at a lesser speed.
Maybe the "It's my right to speed" brigade should reflect on this a little?
The motor-cyclist appears to have been driving at a speed between 30mph and 60mph acording to earlier posts.
From the information given on the thread, it appears that he would have still collided with 10pence even if he'd been driving at 20mph.
However I'm pretty confident that his injuries would have been a lot less severe if he'd been travelling at a lesser speed.
Maybe the "It's my right to speed" brigade should reflect on this a little?
10 Pence Short said:
1 said:
10p Short,
I hope you don't mind but upon reading your story I noticed your name on your profile and found this article in the Cumberland & Westmoreland Herald.
To clarify a couple of points; the day of the accident I joined a group of cars who were meeting close to my home. It was mainly a group of 30 or so Clio owners from the owners club, but of more interest were a small group of Honda owners who'd arranged to tag along on the back of that meeting.I hope you don't mind but upon reading your story I noticed your name on your profile and found this article in the Cumberland & Westmoreland Herald.
On the morning of the accident, I met the group in Kendal and we let the Clio owners head off towards Penrith where they were meeting another group. Everyone can probably now appreciate the irony when I say I and the other Honda owners let the Clios go before us so we could avoid getting involved in any p*ssing competitions and causing an accident.
Having witnessed the driving of the main group on the way to Penrith, and considering the size of the group (which was more than 40 cars I would have said at this point) and the route they intended to take into the Lake District, I made the decision when I reached Penrith that I didn't want any further part in the drive.
At this point I made the decision to head up the A686 to Hartside, which I discussed with the other Honda drivers. Four of them decided they'd come and have a look at the road. For anyone who knows the road or the area, it's very well renowned and usually features on any list of top ten driving roads in this country.
Five of us (three Civic Type Rs and two identical white Integras) set off towards Hartside. None of us were 'boy racers', none of us were in any competition, none of us had anything to prove. For 6 or 7 miles until we reached the village of Melmerby, where the road starts to climb up Hartside, we drove very steadily, encountered little traffic and nothing of any note took place.
As we came out of Melmerby village we caught up with a group of four cars travelling slowly, it's a scenic route and the people heading up the queue were not from the area and didn't know the road (which I later found from witness evidence). Unbeknown to me, a local young lad in a Corsa had spotted us and joined the queue at the back.
In the next 2.5 miles I overtook the four cars, one of whom overtook the others in the most dangerous way I've ever seen on that road (as in crawling past a car doing 40mph at 42mph whilst approaching a blind bend). Witness evidence from those four cars suggested that I'd passed them like a 'bat out of hell', 'engine screaming' and so on. The road itself is quite enclosed, full of hairpins and interspersed with short straights. As someone who knew the road extremely well I used those opportunities to pass the cars. To this day, presented with the same overtaking opportunities, I would still have no second thought in repeating them.
The cars behind me in our group did some overtaking, though to be honest the nature of the road means you can't see far back in your mirrors. I would imagine the people we were overtaking felt intimidated and it could be assumed that all those similar performance cars were trying to keep up with each other. Maybe they were, I was perhaps being naive in not thinking about how the others behind me would drive. For example, the Corsa I mentioned was singled out by witness evidence as having passed one car right around a blind blind and was reported individually to the Police.
The final straw in the witness evidence was from a man in a Mondeo, the final car I overtook before losing control, an elderly man and his wife who'd been driving for years and years with an unblemished record. He was the car I described earlier as overtaking insanely, which he did twice. He, and then corroborated by his wife, claimed I had overtaken him around a blind right hand bend and immediately lost control in front of him. It simply wasn't true. I'd overtaken him about 1/4 of a mile beforehand, on the exit of a left hand bend. Nobody actually witnessed me beginning to lose control because no cars were close enough to see me, as the bends behind me obscured vision.
I was given the opportunity under Police interview to watch a run done by a Police car up the same route, so I could point out exactly where I had overtaken the man in his Mondeo. On the first run of the video I did exactly that. It wass noted in the interview that I'd done that and that it matched my description from my first interview, done some 3 months earlier.
The reponse from the investigating officers was to sit on that information for 5 months, until I was comitted to Crown Court, then they took the video of the run to the old mans house and asked him and his wife to point out where I'd overtaken them, 10 months earlier. They did not share my viewpoint.
With regards to internet evidence. I've been a member of the Civic Type-R owners site for a long time. I got a reputation as a bit of a sarcastic git and I made a lot of daft comments which didn't often have a grounding in reality, more they were being daft or making stupid digs at people (I'm sure I'm not surprising some PHers with that).
When the accident happened, 4 of the first few cars on the scene happened to be high performance Hondas. A couple of the Civics had windows stickers with the club URL on them. It didn't take a rocket scientist to find out what my username was, and within a few hours of the accident the Police had downloaded the forum and printed out all of my comments. In the light of the events that day, some of the comments on the Civic forum turned out to be very damning. People who didn't know the context in which they were being said, or the character who was saying them would have to take the comments on face value, and face value said that I was a boy racing tw&t.
So now the Police had evidence from witnesses and they had evidence from an internet forum which proved I treated that road like a plaything and was predisposed to driving quickly.
Add to that the thorough investigation carried out by the Collision Investigation Unit. This concluded that the likely cause of the accident was any or a combination of excessive speed, coarse braking and or steering. In reality it was the former. It couldn't be estimated at any time what speed I was doing, as my wheels had continued to rotate through the entire skid and post impact with the bike. The radious of the corners means it would be very unlikely that I was travelling above the speed limit at the time of my accident. It was what you'd now call innapropriate speed.
As the back of the car began to slide, I'd turned into it and applied as much power as I could get, trying to bring the car back around. Despite the huge, almost 90 degree angle of slide, the car had slowed almost to a halt by the time of the impact. When the impact occured, I was still on the throttle pedal, the front wheels were lifted, spun, gained traction and spat me onto the nearside verge. Believe it or not, the investigation report very briefly mentioned this as evidence I may have been purposely 'power sliding' the car, which was ridiculous in the extreme and didn't feature in court.
Presented with those 3 pieces of strong evidence, I had to make a choice. I knew how I'd driven immediately before the accident, and although it was quickly it didn't match the witnesses versions of events. I knew how I'd written the internet evidence and what I'd meant at the time, could I possibly make a jury understand the comments in their proper context? It was unlikely on both counts.
A Newton Hearing may have been an idea, but my legal advice suggested that the judge had a dislike of Newton hearings and that the outcome wouldn't necessarily be improved just by discounting some smallish parts of the evidence.
So I had a clear choice- fight a full trial in front of a jury and try to argue that it was a moment of careless driving, that I'd gone into the corner too quickly and lost control, knowing that I would receive no discount on a sentence if I was found guilty and that the judge may be inclined to hand down the maximum two year sentence, OR plead guilty to the offences as charged, accept the prosecutions version of events and get the 30% discount as provided by law. It was a hugely difficult decision socially, morally, financially, on every level. I knew that by pleading guilty I would have little right to reply, little opportunity to set anything straight. The newspaper reporters in the court would pick out the juiciest prosecution quotes and print them, as they do all of the time.
In the end the prosecution version of events was the only one heard in court, so it was the only one reported in the paper. It wasn't a true representation of me or of the events, but it's one people would use to judge me. People who I've known for years read those reports in the loal papers, I still have to pass them in the street in this small town wondering if they believe mine or the paper version of what happened. Some people I used to say 'hello' to now try to avoid conversation and even eye contact.
As I've said before, when you're out driving, and particularly if you're making progress, keep thinking about your last 5 minutes of driving and how it would be described by a witness if you were to have an incident further on.
After reading the article i find you mr 10p a kunt,you say your not a boy racer above bullshit,you have been so honest up to now.if not a boy racer why then meet several other small dicked guys in fast cars in a carpark to go for a spin for fecks sake what age are you.Did feel for you right up untill i read the article.Then you go and brag tags off shall i go for a tag free beer 1 min after midnight,you fecking wankker should crawl back into your hole that biker cant even lift a pint.All because you met up with several other knobheads for a jolly.You got off lightly think yourself lucky you prik the biker is the unlucky one.So easy to be sorry after the accident is it not.
Please do not bother to reply because you disgust me.
Article said:
A car driver who left a motorcyclist severely injured after a crash while using the A686 at Hartside “like a race track” was sent to prison for 12 months.
The accident happened when Olley, who was driving one of a convoy of high powered Honda Civic cars, passed two vehicles at high speed and then tried to overtake another on a blind bend before losing control and hitting a motorbike coming the other way.
Mrs. Linda Vance, prosecuting, told the court that Olley, using the nickname “Ten Pence Short”, had used an Internet website for Honda Civic drivers to arrange a meet in a Penrith supermarket car park.
From there, she said, he led them up the A686 to Hartside a road he described on the website as “a good little route for cars like ours”. He suggested that “the best games” involved “finding a guy in a superior car and watching him trying to keep up”, she said.
Edited by 10 Pence Short on Thursday 25th October 09:38
Molehall said:
A very sad story for all concerned.
The motor-cyclist appears to have been driving at a speed between 30mph and 60mph acording to earlier posts.
From the information given on the thread, it appears that he would have still collided with 10pence even if he'd been driving at 20mph.
However I'm pretty confident that his injuries would have been a lot less severe if he'd been travelling at a lesser speed.
Maybe the "It's my right to speed" brigade should reflect on this a little?
Are you stupid 10p should not have been sideways in middle of on comming traffic due to his excessive speed or poor driving.The motor-cyclist appears to have been driving at a speed between 30mph and 60mph acording to earlier posts.
From the information given on the thread, it appears that he would have still collided with 10pence even if he'd been driving at 20mph.
However I'm pretty confident that his injuries would have been a lot less severe if he'd been travelling at a lesser speed.
Maybe the "It's my right to speed" brigade should reflect on this a little?
I think you are being a bit harsh "OZZERR". Just because someone was driving their car for pleasure with a few like minded individuals it does not automatically make them a "boy racer".
From all that I have read it sounds like 10p Short is truly sorry for what happened and I think the reality is that it could have happened to anyone who enjoys driving.
From all that I have read it sounds like 10p Short is truly sorry for what happened and I think the reality is that it could have happened to anyone who enjoys driving.
ozzerr said:
After reading the article i find you mr 10p a kunt,you say your not a boy racer above bullshit,you have been so honest up to now.if not a boy racer why then meet several other small dicked guys in fast cars in a carpark to go for a spin for fecks sake what age are you.Did feel for you right up untill i read the article.Then you go and brag tags off shall i go for a tag free beer 1 min after midnight,you fecking wankker should crawl back into your hole that biker cant even lift a pint.All because you met up with several other knobheads for a jolly.You got off lightly think yourself lucky you prik the biker is the unlucky one.So easy to be sorry after the accident is it not.
Please do not bother to reply because you disgust me.
2@Please do not bother to reply because you disgust me.
ozzerr said:
Molehall said:
A very sad story for all concerned.
The motor-cyclist appears to have been driving at a speed between 30mph and 60mph acording to earlier posts.
From the information given on the thread, it appears that he would have still collided with 10pence even if he'd been driving at 20mph.
However I'm pretty confident that his injuries would have been a lot less severe if he'd been travelling at a lesser speed.
Maybe the "It's my right to speed" brigade should reflect on this a little?
Are you stupid 10p should not have been sideways in middle of on comming traffic due to his excessive speed or poor driving.The motor-cyclist appears to have been driving at a speed between 30mph and 60mph acording to earlier posts.
From the information given on the thread, it appears that he would have still collided with 10pence even if he'd been driving at 20mph.
However I'm pretty confident that his injuries would have been a lot less severe if he'd been travelling at a lesser speed.
Maybe the "It's my right to speed" brigade should reflect on this a little?
Driving on the roads is becoming all the more dangerous and the road isn't a race circuit. We all know people lie and think they have the moral high ground over incidents like this but I think 10pence short has been brutally honest about what happened and my hat off to him. None of us want to be in his position and some of us might well be so it should be simple, the roads have their uses, getting to work and to the race track.
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