can't stand this place anymore

[Driller]

A common lawyer said:

Anyone in Paris is more than welcome to a beer on me, subject to being willing to join in my moaning about RSI/URSSAF trying to prevent any sort of economic recovery.

My personal favourite so far: an expat friend closed his business, re-emigrated, and two years later all the money disappeared from his French account (not far off six figures). Despite the business no longer existing, URSSAF had "reactivated" the account, sent a debit note (to an address he left two years ago) and then just took the money when he didn't pay -- they don't need to go to court for that. Had to go for an injunction to get the cash back until the matter was resolved. Got it all set aside as there was a procedural irregularity in the service, thankfully.

Oh, and my wife's payslip has 29 separate deductions on it.

I could be up for that. I'll add the convention collectif, Prodhomme and that tosser Emmanuel Macron to the RSI/URSSAF.

Scary and outrageous stuff with your friend. Glad he got it sorted but it must have been bloody stressful. They make the tax deductions complicated so no-one can understand exactly how much they are being fked up the arse for.

Le Pop said:

Coincidentally, I've just had a heartwarming experience to slightly rebalance this discussion...

...Today I called him and hey presto the cable is in the post. I gushed my thanks, .

Great comments and story. You do know he doesn't give a flying fk about your thanks though don't you or the polite way you asked?


My latest fun: wife got a call from my assistant (who is 1 month pregnant) at 8 this morning. She has been given 3 weeks off work because she doesn't feel good, which will probably become "pathological maternity leave" i.e. off until the baby is born and maternity leave finished.

Because of the URSSAF there's no way I can have a receptionist so I am at work for the foreseeable future with no assistant on those days my associate doesn't work and on the other days we will have to share her assistant.

So I have to do all the dentistry whilst answering the phone, taking payments and passing carte vital, making appointments and doing the sterilisation and cleaning.

Of course I will have to find a replacement (wish me luck) and I will have to pay her salary but also several hundred Euros a month towards the maternity leave of the one who is off.










(I'm going to ask someone to change the title of the thread, it was written in the heat of the moment)

[Driller]

Hah, a double whammy: DHL and France combined!

[Driller]

Here's my latest. Brace yourselves

Went to FNAC this evening. You know, FNAC, that upmarket store that positions itself in the upper echelons of product quality and customer service with a price that generally follows suite?

We had ordered and paid for a Macbook Air on the FNAC website and went to the local store to collect it. Stood in a very long queue with the baby strapped to me because due to the ridiculous URSSAF charges they can't afford to have enough staff.

Showed the documents they asked us to bring to prove we had paid: carte identité, carte banquaire and the code form the website we were given upon purchase. Guy checks the documents, says all ok, and we leave with the computer. We walk out of the shop past the security, nothing goes beep on the way out.

We get 10 paces and the security guy shouts "monsieur, I need to stamp your receipt".

You have to know we have been walking around the shops for hours, me with a 1 year old strapped to me, and we've paid for this very expensive Apple computer. I'm not interest in having my facture "stamped" (his words).

So we continue walking to the car and get a few more paces and the guy shouts again "Monsieur, il faut mettre un tampon". Now I've really had enough of this bullst and ask him if he's accusing me of stealing the computer. He says "non" so we walk on. A few meters to go to the car and two security guys run out of the shop towards us shouting again about the now famous stamp on the receipt.

I take the computer from my wife, go around the back of the Audi, open the motorised boot and put it inside. I push the button for it to close and the tt puts his hand in just before it closes. I yell at him to pull it out but he ignores me and of course the boot closes and traps his finger.

I open it slightly to release his finger and immediately close it again with the computer safely inside.

Now I go to get in the front seat of the car with my 1 year old baby still strapped to me and the wker blocks the door and places his hands on the car. I'm not an idiot and certainly not interested in getting in a fight with baby on me so I ask him to take his hands off my car and stop blocking my way. He moves away and I get the car door open and then he pushes towards me pushing up against the baby.

I complain and he moves away and I sit in the front seat. However he then grabs the door and won't let me close it.

During all this I must have asked 10 times if I was suspected of stealing anything and they replied "non".

By this time I am so outraged by this aggression that I am in no mood for cooperation. All I want to do is get the hell out of there. I had done nothing wrong, not broken any laws, just paid for and collected goods which were now mine and wanted to go home. I considered started the engine and pulling away but with the risk of injury to him decided against it.

I had given the baby to my wife by this time and she'd put her in the back baby seat.

The director of the shop then arrives and tries to calm things down by saying "you have to understand we have theft sometimes". I tell him I'm not interested in his theft problems and if that's the way they treat paying customers then they deserve to go out of business. I had paid for my goods and had done nothing wrong and wasn't being accused of anything so why had these apes accosted me and my family?

Yes of course I could have just coughed up my papers like a good boy when called to but FFS why should I? Why should paying customers be treated like that?

Anyway the director was very apologetic (although I wasn't having any of it) and said to come back another day and he would give us "recompense".

Ah, commerce in France in all its glory.

A Common Lawyer, any idea what the legal situation is with this? Assault, false imprisonement? (yeah, yeah, I know, I'm just very angry). I'm going to speak to a lawyer friend tomorrow.

Edited by Driller on Friday 12th December 21:23

[Driller]

Geekman said:

No sympathy from me on that one I'm afraid. Stamping the receipt would have taken what, one minute? Instead you've decided to be awkward and turn a simple mistake on their part into a massive fiasco.

It's one thing to complain about certain aspects of french life (in fact, I totally agree with a lot of your complaints) but I'm afraid in that situation it just looks like you were going out of your way to cause trouble and found out they were more than happy to give you some.

No security alert sounded, no-one told us we'd have to show our papers on the way out. We'd brought something in good faith and were minding our own business.

If you're happy to pay money and be treated like cattle by a couple of heavies at the door of , that's up to you. Every other shop seems to manage to make it work without effectively frisking their customers at the door.

Fair enough for your point of view, I knew it would be controversial story to tell but just another brick in the wall as far as I'l concerned.

ETA BTW you did realise that "stamping the receipt" was a euphemism for "making sure I'm not a dirty thief" right?

Edited by Driller on Friday 12th December 22:44

[Driller]

Not sure that's irony or not Stewie .

I don't know about showing them but I am of course regretting sticking to my principles (I can be a bit Aspergersy) but actually the Frenchy wife agreed with me that it's ridiculous we had to prove purchase when we collected the goods inside the shop and once again at the door whereas no other shop we know of has to do this.

She's now getting excited at the prospect of getting free stuff out of the shop for our trouble FFS!

I still don't get it and am trying to imagine the furore if they tried it in an Apple Store or, say, John Lewis.

[Driller]

Certainly not guaranteed that I would want to

[Driller]

[Driller]

Yeah, I know what you mean. It's been a hard week. I do appreciate the ihumour though

In the clarity of morning light it would have been better to demand the manager and complain to him rather than sticking to principles and continuing to walk to the car. It's typical French ambiguity though: we say we have no suspicion of you stealing anything but you're going to be roughed up by a couple of heavies until you prove you haven't.

For Steve "Fat Mcmissile"and a few, you've disagreed with my POV from the start of this thread, so I certainly didn't expect any agreement from you on this even if no-one else agrees either.

This has become a nice little outlet to have a spleen vent about France though which really helps.

[Driller]

Had a word with my lawyer friend this morning and he confirmed to me that what they did was absolutely illegal. The goods were legally mine and they had no right to ask me for anything let alone lay a hand on me or the car.

If they had suspected me of stealing they could have made a citizen's arrest but if shown to be without evidence or proven otherwise, the st hits the fan for them.

He's going to write them a legal type email, should be interesting but I haven't got the time or the desire to pursue it further. I'm not interested in anything except maybe an explanation from the director and to tell him they need to review their Nazi door policy.

I've known him for a while but have just discovered that this sort of totalitarian thing (his words) is a pet hate and drives him insane too. When he gets asked to turn out his bag when he walks into a store in his leathers or followed by 5 security guys into the store because he didn't hear them ask this, whilst everyone else walks through un-harassed, he flashes his card and they immediately back off. Funny that.

[Driller]

rdjohn said:

So, what happened to the season of goodwill to all men?

The guys you are referring to are probably at the bottom rung of the employment ladder; low wages, flexible hour contracts and a crap task, yet still willing to risk loosing their fingers in your fancy boot just to do their employers bidding. Is it not you who is now adopting the arrogant attitude of the intolerant Parisian, that much of this thread is aimed at?

Having a pop at over paid, under worked civil-servants is one thing, but it really is unfair not to recognise that the ability to walk into FNAC to buy a high end laptop, does not excuse you from failing to stop for a brief moment, when asked, and have your reciept stamped like everyone else. It just is not such a big deal in the scheme of things.

I hear you John but know that the treatment I ask from others is no more than and certainly not as much as the politeness, respect and goodwill I extend to them.

If you asked any of my patients they will tell you that. I came to work this morning to fit a bridge for a patient so that she would have it for christmas (I don't come in on weekends normally).

I give out a mobile number so that patients can call me at home in the evenings. I will often call them myself from home in the evening after surgery to find out how they are.

If I treated my patients anywhere near as badly as that they would tell me to get lost and rightly so.

Policing and roughing up customers is not on and my friend has confirmed this. If it happened in the UK it wouldn't be on either but in France the two heavies at the door is a much commoner occurrence.

Both you and Steve have mentioned my "fancy" automatic tailgate- is this some kind of strange jealousy or something? It's very odd, a lot of cars have this system these days. That guy had no right to put his hand on me or on the car or in the boot. He has no more right to do that than any of the people in the street.

Yes, I felt a little bad for him but it was his own stupid fault, even if it was just a pinch that he was playing on.

I dunno maybe it's an Ile de France thing getting harassed at the door by these guys.

How does it work in the shops in Province?

Edited by Driller on Saturday 13th December 16:15

[Driller]

Russwhitehouse said:

I think it extremely unlikely that the security guards are on any form of dodgy contract or are considered bottom of any ladder. Such things don't exist in France.
Saying that, I think you overreacted a tad there driller. The stamping bits of paper bullst is nothing new, especially at Christmas. Far easier and less stressful to just let them do their thing and go on your way with jaunty bonne journée. At the risk of sounding patronising, be careful not to go out of your way to find things to be pissed off and annoyed with. There is plenty of it every day without looking for more. There comes a time when going with the flow makes life easier for everyone (says Mr calm and pious!)

Yeah, I do agree with most of that and at any other time I probably would have just kept quiet and got stamped but there comes a point where it all builds up and you feel so constantly beat up by the place that you want to stand up for yourself a bit.

At the end of the day it's extremely tiring fighting the system and as you say you have to go with the flow.

Geekman said:

Haha, yes, of course I realised that! I suspect if you adopted a similar attitude in England and challenged anything and everything which offended your principles, you'd find just as many things to complain about. As I said before, France isn't perfect, and I agree with a lot of what you've said previously, but when you move to a new country, there's a definite element of your experience being what you make it.

Oh I'd certainly find some things to complain about that's for sure (no country is perfect least of all the UK) but I just don't think they would be as extreme. And there just seems to be so many things that annoy here but that don't exist in the UK.

I can tell you I am not in the habit of getting accosted by security guards anyway!

This wouldn't have happened in the UK because like the priorité a droit and impots sur la revenue, it's ambiguous:you've paid for your stuff but there's still doubt whether you've paid for it. The UK system would be clearer, simpler.

Here's a question for you, if you like, parallel it with being stopped in the middle of the street and being asked for your ID by the police when you're walking minding your own business. Sure, you can cough up your ID, it takes a second but why should you have to be made to defend your innocence against an implied guilt? (profound stuff!)

[Driller]

ACl I feel for you, I had exactly the same sort of ballsups with the URSSAF people (always makes me think of the American airforce that) except they sent round a balif without saying anything to my dental practice.

So I arrive in the morning, patients in the waiting room and this ominous looking bloke all dressed in black hands me a notice in front of all my patients.

@JBL, another nail in the coffin. These fking stupid idiots.

[Driller]

[Driller]

Russwhitehouse said:

Here we go again! Mobile phone repairs this time. My son broke the screen on his phone, so after some Internet research, we found an outfit in Paris called Mobile24. Seemed the very people for the job, so we posted it off to them recorded delivery as instructed on their website. A few days later, we get an email from la Poste to say that the phone is held in a post office in Paris as no one was there to sign for the phone when they tried to deliver. We phone up Mobile24 who say there is nothing they can do, offer no explanation as to why no one had been around to sign and in typical French fashion throw the ball back into our court by refusing to collect it from the post office. We phone la poste to see if they will redeliver, they won't and insist it has to be collected. We explain Mobile24 refuse to collect it. They say there is nothing they can do and it will have to sit in Paris for two weeks before it will be returned to sender. We ask them to return it to sender straight away so that we can get it repaired elsewhere, they refuse and say it is policy it has to be held for two weeks. We phone Mobile24 again, by now getting irate, to no avail and are simply palmed off with the usual bullst about getting someone to phone us back, sending us an email etc. the final straw came yesterday when after yet another lengthy phone call,to Mobile24, the girl on the other end said she would deal with it tomorrow and send us an email . When asked why she couldn't deal with it now and why it had to wait till tomorrow, she said she was about to go off shift! "Then why are we wasting our time talking to you" says I, as opposed to talking to someone who is starting there shift and can deal with the matter. She says she will hand it over to an oncoming colleague and they will phone us back. They don't.
So the upshot of all this is my son has no phone, we have to wait for two weeks (at least) till we get the phone back and then start all over again, and we just cannot be bothered to waste any more time and effort trying to resolve things, which is exactly what these inept wkers are banking on!Vive la France!

Jesus that wound me right up reading that, you just can't reason with them!

magooagain said:

Most of these moans should be put the PH 1st world problem's thread.

I disagree: only people who live here can really understand this particular form of garlic flavoured pain

[Driller]

Indeed, along with lawyers, notaires, chemists etc Montebourg and now that little st Macron along with Marisol Thurein (sp) really want to get their grubby fingers into us.

Except that all the others have proper syndicats that defend them rather than selling them for cushy positions in a Mutuel later on.

Fair play to you for doing your homesork though and I'm genuinely glad you were able to take an informed decision before coming over. I suppose I just took it for granted that going into something as specialised as dentistry would mean the same great conditions where ever I worked.

Having said that though and as I said before, it's not just the work it's the general conduct and attitudes of people that get you down.

[Driller]

Yeah, lets not bicker, we need each other to commiserate

Agree with the winter thing too

[Driller]

Cloggie said:

I thought you had the Ordre to fall back on? Most of the dentists I know in France make more money than in the UK. The freedom to make whatever profit you want on parts allows a hefty margin. I know GACD and Mega Dental are not the cheapest, but there are a few new French on-line companies that offer decent prices.
The reality that a lot of work cannot be done by assistants here in France just needs a re-think of the way you plan work. Having 2 chairs still very much makes sense here and still allows for a much better productivity I think.

The Ordre is as good as useless and seem only concerned in feathering their own nests and not making waves until their hefty retirements. The CNSD is even worse and must actively be in league with the social security when you consider all the freedoms they have signed away for absolutely nothing in return (well not for us anyway).

If you're comparing France with the NHS then fair play but I can't imagine a UK private dentist making less than a French dentist. For conservative treatment (which makes up 70%+ of what we do) there's no contest. Composite filling in UK £120+, in France from €17 - €40, molar end in UK is £500 odd plus in France it's €80! An extraction in France, even surgical, is €33, in the UK they start from about £100 for a simple one!

Add to that the tax and URSSAF...no I don't see it.

GACD, Megadental, Promodentaire etc are all a crazy ripoff and as ever in France they have the monopoly and nobody does anything.

To be slightly fair, a contributing factor must be that old friend the URSSAF etc that pushes prices up but even considering that it's very expensive and as usual it's us "rich" dentists who are expected to cough up.

I have 3 chairs, with an associate working on one but I really need to get another associate but the trouble it's an associates market over here (in the UK it's the other way round with many associates going for the same job) plus I'd have to hire another assistant so with URSSAF bye bye to another €3000+ each month...

Not sure what you mean by "The reality that a lot of work cannot be done by assistants here in France " but if you mean the fact that there's not enough staff and so they can't be everywhere then yes there are things you can do (longer appointments for example) but there's no substitute for sufficient staff numbers.

Are you a dentist, you seem to know a lot? It looks like you're in Luxembourg, if you're a dentist there you must be very happy, good choice!

mad4amanda said:

Hi Driller I wonder if you can maybe help ? We are currently at the outlaws in Brittany and my wife has broken a tooth. If you pardon the pun what is the drill?
We have her EHIC card and travel insurance from our bank ? We are planning to try the FiL dentist in the morning for an extraction what is the likely outcome and cost ( they claim back 70% of the cost) also are the dentists on strike ? If so is this likely to affect the outcome?
many thanks
Steve

Hi Steve, yes some dentists are on strike next week (although they're so st at defending themselves probably only a few will be-I've got the week off. There is a general strike on 22 Jan).

Not too familiar with the EHIC setup but for a panoramic radiograph it's €21 odd or a small film €7.98, extraction as above €33 odd. A consultation is €23 and they might put this in or not (bearing in mind how cheap the extraction is).

So if you're paid back the 70% it's not going to cost very much

Please let me know if I can be of any further help.

[Driller]

Cloggie said:

You're right, I am comparing with NHS dentistry. The prices you mention are what the insurance pays so I suppose the comparison with NHS is correct.

In fact the prices I mention are the 100% price (IE what the dentist gets paid). The secu reimburses 70% of this and if they have a mutuel, it pays the remaining 30%. So for an extraction I get paid €33, the secu reimburses €23.10 to the patient and the mutuel the remaining €10 odd.

Cloggie said:

There is nothing stopping you charging more though, is there?

And here is the problem, yes there is!

All conservative treatment ("soin") in France is capped. The idea is "access au soin pour tout", a wonderfully communist idea that only the French could come up with. This treatment represents 70% of a dentists activity and so it doesn't matter how much you invest in your practice, how comfortable and hitech it is (and mine is very comfortable and hitch!) , you do not have the right to ask for more than the basic price for treatment.

And it doesn't work. Some dentists know they can't make money with fillings so they just leave them until they turn into a toothache needing root treatment and a crown. Well done the socialists!

These prices are outlandishly low, in fact they are the lowest in Europe including Eastern block countries like Hungry etc They haven't been updated properly for years and the base for reimbursement since 1987, which they conveniently forget to mention.

When you consider the advancements made in dental techniques and equipment (including the prices!) over the years it comes as no surprise that a dentist performs this treatment in France at a loss.

The prosthetics treatment (crowns, bridges, implants...) is relatively expensive (these prices, illogically are not capped) in an attempt to make up for the loss with all the other treatment although when compared to the rest of Europe these prices remain in the norm.

Cloggie said:

The percentages paid to associates here seem to be a be a bit high as well and can have some added complications. Using Romanian or Spanish dentists seems to work well at that point though.

With "The reality that a lot of work cannot be done by assistants here in France" I refer to other European countries where a lot of in-mouth work can be done by assistants and technicians, while in France this is not allowed.

Yeah, my associate gets 60% (she pays her lab bill) so when you remove the leasing for the brand new surgery she has, materials and the €3000 per month for her assistant there's not much left. It just means the practice gets to be open all hours.

As far as them doing work in the mouth it would be handy to have a hygienist (doesn't exist here) and for them to be able to do whitening.

Cloggie said:

No, I am not a dentist but I rent out dental practices with all the hassle that brings with the Ordre, bureaucracy and dentist's expectations. And I don't live in Luxembourg unfortunately, Burgundy it is for me.

Blimey, that must be a real headache doing that, it would drive me mad.

mad4amanda said:

Thanks Driller you`re a star! she is feeling better this morning so may get through Christmas anyway!

Hope it all goes to plan

Edited by Driller on Monday 22 December 11:26

[Driller]

Cloggie said:

You're right, I am comparing with NHS dentistry. The prices you mention are what the insurance pays so I suppose the comparison with NHS is correct.

In fact the prices I mention are the 100% price (IE what the dentist gets paid). The secu reimburses 70% of this and if they have a mutuel, it pays the remaining 30%. So for an extraction I get paid €33, the secu reimburses €23.10 to the patient and the mutuel the remaining €10 odd.

Cloggie said:

There is nothing stopping you charging more though, is there?

And here is the problem, yes there is!

All conservative treatment ("soin") in France is capped. The idea is "access au soin pour tout", a wonderfully communist idea that only the French could come up with. This treatment represents 70% of a dentists activity and so it doesn't matter how much you invest in your practice, how comfortable and hitech it is (and mine is very comfortable and hitch!) , you do not have the right to ask for more than the basic price for treatment.

And it doesn't work. Some dentists know they can't make money with fillings so they just leave them until they turn into a toothache needing root treatment and a crown. Well done the socialists!

These prices are outlandishly low, in fact they are the lowest in Europe including Eastern block countries like Hungry etc They haven't been updated properly for years and the base for reimbursement since 1987, which they conveniently forget to mention.

When you consider the advancements made in dental techniques and equipment (including the prices!) over the years it comes as no surprise that a dentist performs this treatment in France at a loss.

The prosthetics treatment (crowns, bridges, implants...) is relatively expensive (these prices, illogically are not capped) in an attempt to make up for the loss with all the other treatment although when compared to the rest of Europe these prices remain in the norm.

Cloggie said:

The percentages paid to associates here seem to be a be a bit high as well and can have some added complications. Using Romanian or Spanish dentists seems to work well at that point though.

With "The reality that a lot of work cannot be done by assistants here in France" I refer to other European countries where a lot of in-mouth work can be done by assistants and technicians, while in France this is not allowed.

Yeah, my associate gets 60% (she pays her lab bill) so when you remove the leasing for the brand new surgery she has, materials and the €3000 per month for her assistant there's not much left. It just means the practice gets to be open all hours.

As far as them doing work in the mouth it would be handy to have a hygienist (doesn't exist here) and for them to be able to do whitening.

Cloggie said:

No, I am not a dentist but I rent out dental practices with all the hassle that brings with the Ordre, bureaucracy and dentist's expectations. And I don't live in Luxembourg unfortunately, Burgundy it is for me.

Blimey, that must be a real headache doing that, it would drive me mad.

mad4amanda said:

Thanks Driller you`re a star! she is feeling better this morning so may get through Christmas anyway!

Hope it all goes to plan

Edited by Driller on Monday 22 December 12:11

[Driller]

I'm totally ranted out with all this stuff right now. No energy left to get angry.

It's turned into a pathetic, defeated, bitter acceptation of the innevitable.