can't stand this place anymore
Discussion
In France at the moment having had five days here to organise a months worth of work. Once again, I've found every store I've dealt with to be incredibly helpful. I've had to buy big from Bricorama, Fly, and Leroy Merlin among others... and I've been shocked by their level of friendliness: every store has gone the extra mile. I always ask for someone who speaks English and I find that they're pleased to show off their language skill and they perhaps 'over help', if that makes any sense. I bought a lot from Fly and had to go back two days later to hire one of their self drive vans; it was a two hour round trip and the clerk said they'd do a discount for me - when I returned the van - having drove it for miles up into the Alps and back down again - they exclaimed 'gratuit!' It didn't cost me a penny in hire or fuel and it all seemed very informal and off the cuff. I was originally supposed to pay 10€ per hour - reduced from 13€ plus a fuel charge per KM.
I must be in some alternate universe over here as all the horror stories I've heard have still yet to surface. One frustration, however, was some of the workers taking two hour lunches when there was lots to do. Eventually, I thought; 'can't beat, them, join them' - and I went and enjoyed my own two hour lunch.
The biggest shock though was in the notaries office with the seller / developer of our purchase and the estate agent; where mild disagreements turned into an all out war... I mean just screaming and shouting and I suppose 'French passion'. This ended with the notaire stating that we should all go to the property to see the issues and make an agreement on site; this is now at 8pm... cue a convoy to the property and more screaming and shouting between us all... ending amicably and in agreement. I have absolutely no idea how it worked out but it did and it was quite a cathartic experience. The notaire was phenomenal and just a massive massive help.
I don't run a business here and it seems people that do, are struggling with their ways. I've spoken with people here saying that - but generally speaking; I'm not sure they have it all wrong here...
I must be in some alternate universe over here as all the horror stories I've heard have still yet to surface. One frustration, however, was some of the workers taking two hour lunches when there was lots to do. Eventually, I thought; 'can't beat, them, join them' - and I went and enjoyed my own two hour lunch.
The biggest shock though was in the notaries office with the seller / developer of our purchase and the estate agent; where mild disagreements turned into an all out war... I mean just screaming and shouting and I suppose 'French passion'. This ended with the notaire stating that we should all go to the property to see the issues and make an agreement on site; this is now at 8pm... cue a convoy to the property and more screaming and shouting between us all... ending amicably and in agreement. I have absolutely no idea how it worked out but it did and it was quite a cathartic experience. The notaire was phenomenal and just a massive massive help.
I don't run a business here and it seems people that do, are struggling with their ways. I've spoken with people here saying that - but generally speaking; I'm not sure they have it all wrong here...
LDN said:
...generally speaking; I'm not sure they have it all wrong here...
I think some of the frustration on this thread may subside a little now the sun is shining. I know I get very frustrated with the French way of doing things quite often, but it doesn't mean I don't want to live here. I just got back from a few days in blighty and apart from pubs and cinemas (and football, but not at the moment!) I don't miss it at all 
I've just got back from 3 days in the UK too, boy was I glad when I was going back to the airport, I've been away too long I think 'cos the sheer amount of traffic drove me nuts. Flew from Stansted, what a f**king disaster area that place is, I thought I'd left loads of time but there were huge queues at security and only half the belts were open so I almost missed my flight and had to run all the way to the gate and was the last to board the plane!!
Well I've been in Basel for two days for work and it has multiplied by one thousand my desire to leave this grotty, savage backwater.
Over there there is such a positive dynamic, everyone moving in the same direction no-one lagging behind or expecting all the others to carry them, everyone smiling and helpful, no dogs
t or scrounges in the streets, cleanliness and efficiency and beautiful countryside and great food and weather.
All the time I was there I didn't hear one horn sounded in anger.
I asked them to explain the tax and healthcare systems-so much more reasonable and fair to someone who actually wants to move ahead in life.
Got off the train in Paris to stink and noise and bedlam, aggressive driving with cars pushing in and weaving horns blaring constantly, people shouting and grimacing not smiling. Like this all the way home to banlieu.
Over there there is such a positive dynamic, everyone moving in the same direction no-one lagging behind or expecting all the others to carry them, everyone smiling and helpful, no dogs
t or scrounges in the streets, cleanliness and efficiency and beautiful countryside and great food and weather.All the time I was there I didn't hear one horn sounded in anger.
I asked them to explain the tax and healthcare systems-so much more reasonable and fair to someone who actually wants to move ahead in life.
Got off the train in Paris to stink and noise and bedlam, aggressive driving with cars pushing in and weaving horns blaring constantly, people shouting and grimacing not smiling. Like this all the way home to banlieu.
I'm thinking of moving to France to retire. Here's my situation; I would welcome any opinions.
Children are grown up and doing their own thing, it would just be SWMBO and I, so no issues with schools etc.
No need to find a job there - I would be living off investments and pensions - so no issues with employment.
I speak some French, and would need to invest the time to become fluent. SWMBO and I have travelled in France quite a lot, and we normally get by without any English, but we are definitely not fluent yet. Study is required
We've visited loads of regions and spent quite a lot of time there. The idea is simply to buy a decent place in the north - say no further South than the Loire - and sell up in the UK. Make the house good and then just enjoy. We mainly enjoy indoor stuff (reading, music, watching films etc.) and basic stuff like walks and eating out, so we don't need Harrods on the doorstep or anything like that.
The main things that appeal are:
So, given this, what do people think? What should I be considering? I am very interested to hear all views.
Thanks.
Children are grown up and doing their own thing, it would just be SWMBO and I, so no issues with schools etc.
No need to find a job there - I would be living off investments and pensions - so no issues with employment.
I speak some French, and would need to invest the time to become fluent. SWMBO and I have travelled in France quite a lot, and we normally get by without any English, but we are definitely not fluent yet. Study is required
We've visited loads of regions and spent quite a lot of time there. The idea is simply to buy a decent place in the north - say no further South than the Loire - and sell up in the UK. Make the house good and then just enjoy. We mainly enjoy indoor stuff (reading, music, watching films etc.) and basic stuff like walks and eating out, so we don't need Harrods on the doorstep or anything like that.
The main things that appeal are:
- The usual one: cheaper houses. UK property is just too expensive for me. Maybe interest rate rises will help, but the houses in the UK that really appeal to me are now out of my price range, and don't feel like a fitting reward for 20+ years of work.
- The lifestyle. I find it to be generally a bit slower, less of a rat race, with a stronger sense of regional and national identities. I don't think I'm being too starry eyed about it; it can be a PITA when you find a limited range of food or you find that nothing is open on a Sunday. But in general it appeals.
- Food and drink, obviously.
- It's a chance to do something completely different after living in London for 40+ years.
- It's a project. A challenge; a bit of an adventure.
- People have talked about how getting any kind of building work done is really hard. Need to either DIY, or buy a place that's already good enough, or be prepared to spend time and money.
- I think that you really need to be fluent in the language, and integrate as much as possible, and that takes effort. We might visit for a few months and do as much language practice as we can.
- Healthcare. The NHS is free at the point of use. The French system isn't. I don't know how the French system compares to the NHS, but millions of people use it, so I'm sure it can't be that bad.
- Being Indian, I need to consider whether people are going to be OK with me living there. In all the time I've been there I've never experienced any racial issues, and in general people are lovely, but I can imagine some communities not being 100% happy about it, and I would hate to be the cause of any issues.
- Need to sort out all the logistics. Need to consider finance (bank accounts, tax treatment, pensions etc.), citizenship as well as actually moving.
So, given this, what do people think? What should I be considering? I am very interested to hear all views.
Thanks.
My advice would be to rent somewhere for a year at least to be sure it is really for you. Lengthy holidays are very different to being here full time. The language is absolutely key to getting the best out of life here. You can take French lessons from now to eternity, you will never be fluent. Although they will help, the only real way is to immerse yourself once you are here, the more you are exposed to French and made to use it the faster you will learn. As a retiree, I'm afraid age is not on your side when learning a language. My kids went to French school and were fluent in six months. My wife and I are still a bit clunky and workmanlike, especially on the phone even after twelve years. Try not to get too sucked in to the expat community which is an easy trap to fall into when you first move here. Before you know it, you will be marginalising yourself from the locals and they will be tittle tattling about you and your business. A sweeping statement perhaps, but that has been my experience Also beware of expats who speak better French than you offering to help with translation and other matters through friends of theirs for a fee. There are a lot of Brits struggling to make a living out here and they will see you as fresh meat.
That being said, from what you say, the lifestyle would suit you down to the ground. The transition from the London rat race will be bliss, as long as you are prepared to accept the shortcomings of France such as stupid opening hours and not allow it to frustrate you. Read drillers thread and think very carefully!
Overall, I prefer the way of life here and it gave the kids a fantastic childhood and a great start in life. Just don't try and run a business!!
Give it a year and see how you feel then.
Good luck.
Russ
That being said, from what you say, the lifestyle would suit you down to the ground. The transition from the London rat race will be bliss, as long as you are prepared to accept the shortcomings of France such as stupid opening hours and not allow it to frustrate you. Read drillers thread and think very carefully!
Overall, I prefer the way of life here and it gave the kids a fantastic childhood and a great start in life. Just don't try and run a business!!
Give it a year and see how you feel then.
Good luck.
Russ
The other thing to bear in mind is the value of your investments, etc... against the Euro. Right now you're getting the best deal ever, but I've heard of many retired folks who returned from Spain when they realised their GBP pension was worthless with the exchange rate then (think GBP was pretty low compared to Euro then).
So your standard of living will be dependent on currency fluctuation unless you have investments in the euro zone you can rely upon. Might be ok now, but what of the future ? All speculation of course.
Greg
So your standard of living will be dependent on currency fluctuation unless you have investments in the euro zone you can rely upon. Might be ok now, but what of the future ? All speculation of course.
Greg
If anyone would like some (free) help on learning French and other languages, I have made a number of videos on Youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIMYCanD_UM...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIMYCanD_UM...
Was in Hyper U last Saturday and noticed that the coffee machine I saw there four years ago was still there at the same price, 120€. I spoke to the staff and asked if they'd sell it to me at a lower price, like 50€. I was told I could have no idea how old the machine was since stock turned over rapidly, so I asked her to get the box down and see if there was writing on the back. I also casually mentioned that Rowenta stopped making coffee machines a few years back. Mutter mutter mutter, machine taken down and sure enough, same writing on the back. Apparently all machines had that on the back and I had no idea about when it was made. I asked to see the machine inside to check the manufacture date and was politely told to go forth and multiply. Be careful out there folks!
AmitG said:
I'm thinking of moving to France to retire. Here's my situation; I would welcome any opinions.
Children are grown up and doing their own thing, it would just be SWMBO and I, so no issues with schools etc.
No need to find a job there - I would be living off investments and pensions - so no issues with employment.
I speak some French, and would need to invest the time to become fluent. SWMBO and I have travelled in France quite a lot, and we normally get by without any English, but we are definitely not fluent yet. Study is required
We've visited loads of regions and spent quite a lot of time there. The idea is simply to buy a decent place in the north - say no further South than the Loire - and sell up in the UK. Make the house good and then just enjoy. We mainly enjoy indoor stuff (reading, music, watching films etc.) and basic stuff like walks and eating out, so we don't need Harrods on the doorstep or anything like that.
The main things that appeal are:
So, given this, what do people think? What should I be considering? I am very interested to hear all views.
Thanks.
Definitely rent somewhere first , and make sure your there over the winter months , every where is nice in the sun . Don't be blinded by what you can buy for your money , I know a few couples living in massive houses who laughed at me for building a small 3 bed holiday house , I can afford to heat mine easily , and it's cool in the summer because of the modern insulation . I'm a builder and I wouldn't bother looking at wrecks or barn conversions , there's more than enough decent stuff for sale that you can move straight into . Children are grown up and doing their own thing, it would just be SWMBO and I, so no issues with schools etc.
No need to find a job there - I would be living off investments and pensions - so no issues with employment.
I speak some French, and would need to invest the time to become fluent. SWMBO and I have travelled in France quite a lot, and we normally get by without any English, but we are definitely not fluent yet. Study is required
We've visited loads of regions and spent quite a lot of time there. The idea is simply to buy a decent place in the north - say no further South than the Loire - and sell up in the UK. Make the house good and then just enjoy. We mainly enjoy indoor stuff (reading, music, watching films etc.) and basic stuff like walks and eating out, so we don't need Harrods on the doorstep or anything like that.
The main things that appeal are:
- The usual one: cheaper houses. UK property is just too expensive for me. Maybe interest rate rises will help, but the houses in the UK that really appeal to me are now out of my price range, and don't feel like a fitting reward for 20+ years of work.
- The lifestyle. I find it to be generally a bit slower, less of a rat race, with a stronger sense of regional and national identities. I don't think I'm being too starry eyed about it; it can be a PITA when you find a limited range of food or you find that nothing is open on a Sunday. But in general it appeals.
- Food and drink, obviously.
- It's a chance to do something completely different after living in London for 40+ years.
- It's a project. A challenge; a bit of an adventure.
- People have talked about how getting any kind of building work done is really hard. Need to either DIY, or buy a place that's already good enough, or be prepared to spend time and money.
- I think that you really need to be fluent in the language, and integrate as much as possible, and that takes effort. We might visit for a few months and do as much language practice as we can.
- Healthcare. The NHS is free at the point of use. The French system isn't. I don't know how the French system compares to the NHS, but millions of people use it, so I'm sure it can't be that bad.
- Being Indian, I need to consider whether people are going to be OK with me living there. In all the time I've been there I've never experienced any racial issues, and in general people are lovely, but I can imagine some communities not being 100% happy about it, and I would hate to be the cause of any issues.
- Need to sort out all the logistics. Need to consider finance (bank accounts, tax treatment, pensions etc.), citizenship as well as actually moving.
So, given this, what do people think? What should I be considering? I am very interested to hear all views.
Thanks.
And definitely be wary of the ex pat crowd , as previously mentioned , there's a lot of them having a difficult time . And a few of them will have a development opportunity for sale !
Good luck if you do it .
I live in the Loire Valley during the summer months; we were certain before we moved here that we would not be able to cope with the winter months in retirement. We spend winters in southern Spain but knew equally that the summers there would be too warm - most expats seem to spend their lives in bars with AC drinking G&Ts.
During the last 15 years, we must have met 20 couples who have or plan to return to the UK because SWIMBO could not bear being away from grand children, so you will need to test that scenario.
With regards to racism, I can tell you that in 10 years, we have yet to see a black person in a position of responsibility - there are plenty of squaddies in the local army camp, but not one officer. Vietnamese seem to have integrated better and have their own shops yet again you do not see them working in government and civil service positions. Our view is in comparison to the UK, racism is pretty widespread. If we walk into a local restaurants with our black friend, it immediately falls silent.
The health service seems much better than in the UK, French spend €2500 per person per annum compared to €1500 in the UK and that is a big difference, yet is does seem to have created a nation of hypochondriacs. The busiest shop in our village is always the Pharmacy.
Having said that, the Loire Valley is a great place to be, it is very different to the UK, but the difference does not trouble us like it does Driller. As many have said in this thread, retirement here is one thing, trying to run a successful business would be almost unbearable.
During the last 15 years, we must have met 20 couples who have or plan to return to the UK because SWIMBO could not bear being away from grand children, so you will need to test that scenario.
With regards to racism, I can tell you that in 10 years, we have yet to see a black person in a position of responsibility - there are plenty of squaddies in the local army camp, but not one officer. Vietnamese seem to have integrated better and have their own shops yet again you do not see them working in government and civil service positions. Our view is in comparison to the UK, racism is pretty widespread. If we walk into a local restaurants with our black friend, it immediately falls silent.
The health service seems much better than in the UK, French spend €2500 per person per annum compared to €1500 in the UK and that is a big difference, yet is does seem to have created a nation of hypochondriacs. The busiest shop in our village is always the Pharmacy.
Having said that, the Loire Valley is a great place to be, it is very different to the UK, but the difference does not trouble us like it does Driller. As many have said in this thread, retirement here is one thing, trying to run a successful business would be almost unbearable.
Hi Amit
I read your post and the replies with interest...
My situation is that we live part time in France so perhaps I can give you a reasonably balanced view.
We find France incredibly relaxing and a chance to unwind from our mad lives in the UK. All your items of appeal ring true for us…
On your downsides…
Property:
Getting building work done, certainly in my experience is relatively straightforward as long as one uses properly registered artisans… Getting it done within time and budget isn’t that much of an issue either. Watching Grand Designs for 20 years has taught me one thing; always get a project manager or sometimes your architect can double up… and it all just happens as long as one sets the parameters firmly.
I spend too much time on http://www.green-acres.com/ which is a great place to mess about looking at properties. Compared to London or the wider UK , the French market in general does not have the speculative mindset…and the succession laws mean that properties can be owned by multiple family members… So properties can languish on the market for years. There are many English, Dutch and Germans who renovate properties to a very high standard and struggle terribly to break even on a sale. Which for a buyer is a good thing… but if SWMBO and you want to return to the UK one day it’s a bit trickier to sell and you will have to wait a bit to sell… and don’t expect the % growth.
Language…
Well one just picks it up… don’t worry.. as soon as you have more interesting and technical challenges… e.g. go and negotiate a pay as you go phone or order a winters worth of wood, you just learn out of necessity.
Healthcare
The system, I think surpasses the NHS hands down… there is a bit of co pay via insurance providers, but it works very very well and the quality is excellent.
Expat Stuff
In my experience I meet more expats who love it down here than those who are disillusioned… I’ve had that everywhere I’ve lived… Australia, USA etc. I think transport connections are really key here.. so you can get ‘home’ quickly and people can get to you quickly…
Have a poke about pn here… http://www.frenchentree.com/
Be bold and give it a go… why the hell not..
Cheers
A
I read your post and the replies with interest...
My situation is that we live part time in France so perhaps I can give you a reasonably balanced view.
We find France incredibly relaxing and a chance to unwind from our mad lives in the UK. All your items of appeal ring true for us…
On your downsides…
Property:
Getting building work done, certainly in my experience is relatively straightforward as long as one uses properly registered artisans… Getting it done within time and budget isn’t that much of an issue either. Watching Grand Designs for 20 years has taught me one thing; always get a project manager or sometimes your architect can double up… and it all just happens as long as one sets the parameters firmly.
I spend too much time on http://www.green-acres.com/ which is a great place to mess about looking at properties. Compared to London or the wider UK , the French market in general does not have the speculative mindset…and the succession laws mean that properties can be owned by multiple family members… So properties can languish on the market for years. There are many English, Dutch and Germans who renovate properties to a very high standard and struggle terribly to break even on a sale. Which for a buyer is a good thing… but if SWMBO and you want to return to the UK one day it’s a bit trickier to sell and you will have to wait a bit to sell… and don’t expect the % growth.
Language…
Well one just picks it up… don’t worry.. as soon as you have more interesting and technical challenges… e.g. go and negotiate a pay as you go phone or order a winters worth of wood, you just learn out of necessity.
Healthcare
The system, I think surpasses the NHS hands down… there is a bit of co pay via insurance providers, but it works very very well and the quality is excellent.
Expat Stuff
In my experience I meet more expats who love it down here than those who are disillusioned… I’ve had that everywhere I’ve lived… Australia, USA etc. I think transport connections are really key here.. so you can get ‘home’ quickly and people can get to you quickly…
Have a poke about pn here… http://www.frenchentree.com/
Be bold and give it a go… why the hell not..
Cheers
A
A couple of little language gripes:-
1) why do goods in the shops often have details/instructions etc in maybe 8 or 10 different languages, but very rarely in English? Given that more of the immigrant population in France is English-speaking it's difficult not to conclude that there is some bloody-mindedness at play!
2) why do all French official documents come with a virtually unreadable font? Either it's too small or a strange font which my scanner really struggles with. All i want to do is scan it in an google translate it into English to make sure I have a reasobly accurate understanding? In the uk we are used to translating all official documents into gudjurati, hindi, cantonese etc etc, but in France - sacre bleu! Non!
Now you may just say i need to learn French, which I am trying my best to do. I just need a little help, but it is made much more difficult here than it is for foreigners in the uk.
Rant over. And breathe...
1) why do goods in the shops often have details/instructions etc in maybe 8 or 10 different languages, but very rarely in English? Given that more of the immigrant population in France is English-speaking it's difficult not to conclude that there is some bloody-mindedness at play!
2) why do all French official documents come with a virtually unreadable font? Either it's too small or a strange font which my scanner really struggles with. All i want to do is scan it in an google translate it into English to make sure I have a reasobly accurate understanding? In the uk we are used to translating all official documents into gudjurati, hindi, cantonese etc etc, but in France - sacre bleu! Non!
Now you may just say i need to learn French, which I am trying my best to do. I just need a little help, but it is made much more difficult here than it is for foreigners in the uk.
Rant over. And breathe...
Le Pop said:
A couple of little language gripes:-
1) why do goods in the shops often have details/instructions etc in maybe 8 or 10 different languages, but very rarely in English? Given that more of the immigrant population in France is English-speaking it's difficult not to conclude that there is some bloody-mindedness at play!
I think that's because the big French retailers don't operate in English speaking countries, and their products are naturally made and packaged for their markets. Carrefour for example operates in thirty-three countries, Leroy Merlin in twelve, few if any where English is the first language. 1) why do goods in the shops often have details/instructions etc in maybe 8 or 10 different languages, but very rarely in English? Given that more of the immigrant population in France is English-speaking it's difficult not to conclude that there is some bloody-mindedness at play!
Throughout Brittany Leclerc and Intermarché supermarkets have large welcome signs in French, Breton and English, and Leroy Merlin staff who speak English wear union flag badges.
Steve
Edited by Fatt McMissile on Wednesday 22 July 15:36
Edited by Fatt McMissile on Wednesday 22 July 15:38
AmitG
I agree with both Russ's and Andrew's replies.
Wife and I have lived and worked here (wife running a business and me salaried until 15yrs ago when I became a consultan ) for last 21 years and no regrets. Have recently had an old house restored for retirement by local tradesmen. Yes it was expensive but it certainly helped us integrate into the community we're now living in. Also having used local tradesmen it hasn't been a problem getting them to return.
One area I would be extremely careful is taxation. I believe that France is still in denial with regard to it's financial difficulties, and tax bills are necessarily going to increase. So my advice is to be careful about bringing over too much in the way of assets, and obviously try and remain domiciled in the UK for tax purposes.
All above said we still consider France a wonderful country to live in though we accept it's a frustrating country to work in.
We live in the SW but the Loire Valley is quite beautiful and I have no doubt there are some wonderful properties to buy there.
Good luck.
Cheers
I agree with both Russ's and Andrew's replies.
Wife and I have lived and worked here (wife running a business and me salaried until 15yrs ago when I became a consultan ) for last 21 years and no regrets. Have recently had an old house restored for retirement by local tradesmen. Yes it was expensive but it certainly helped us integrate into the community we're now living in. Also having used local tradesmen it hasn't been a problem getting them to return.
One area I would be extremely careful is taxation. I believe that France is still in denial with regard to it's financial difficulties, and tax bills are necessarily going to increase. So my advice is to be careful about bringing over too much in the way of assets, and obviously try and remain domiciled in the UK for tax purposes.
All above said we still consider France a wonderful country to live in though we accept it's a frustrating country to work in.
We live in the SW but the Loire Valley is quite beautiful and I have no doubt there are some wonderful properties to buy there.
Good luck.
Cheers
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