can't stand this place anymore

[crossy67]

Russwhitehouse said:

All well and good, but any success is viewed by the authorities as profiteering and is very rapidly stamped out as you are swamped with demands for money. Coatisasions, impot et al. You would not be the first person to think they could drive a coach and horses through the economy and make a fortune. You can't because they simply won't let you. I's a dirty word.

vivre la différence

For the French system to work you need to be able to hide 40% of your income from the tax man.

The biggest problem I see with the English living in France is they bring their English values over here and try to apply them to a French life. It just doesn't work. The french are very candid about what they do and how they make it work for them so it's quite difficult to find out how things REALLY work.

For example, they will go and buy fresh wine from the vine yards in big plastic tubs for cash, take it home and bottle it them selves. The vintners make some black money and the peasants get their good quality wine to lay down in their caves for 10 years without the tax man knowing about it. They buy their fire wood many many years in advance and stockpile it, the older the wood the hotter the fire where as the English buy next winters firewood in the summer before.

I know many English who are disgusted that other people don't declare all their income. At almost 50% deductions it's not only worth while doing cash jobs, it's essential but people from the UK where corporation tax is a measly 19% (may be 20% now) why would you risk becoming Bubbas new play thing?

[gaz1234]

Nice supermarkets

[Russwhitehouse]

Digga said:

Russwhitehouse said:

All well and good, but any success is viewed by the authorities as profiteering and is very rapidly stamped out as you are swamped with demands for money. Coatisasions, impot et al. You would not be the first person to think they could drive a coach and horses through the economy and make a fortune. You can't because they simply won't let you. I's a dirty word.

Yes, I do 'get' that aspect to.

Best compromise is a sort of ex-pat guerilla style campaign to get in, make some money and then get out when the bureaucracy gets too much.

Nice idea, but the getting out bit is not that simple. Once you're in it is a complex web to get out. As I said before, profit is a dirty word and the French have every angle covered in order to prevent you from doing so without being bled dry first.

[whoami]

crossy67 said:

I know many English who are disgusted that other people don't declare all their income.

Strangely, they seem to be in short supply in the UK.

[crossy67]

whoami said:

Strangely, they seem to be in short supply in the UK.

They've all moved over here

[whoami]

crossy67 said:

whoami said:

Strangely, they seem to be in short supply in the UK.

They've all moved over here

You're welcome.

[AndrewCrown]

Dear All

I've been reading this rather negative thread for a bit...

I'm remotely rennovating a French place with a project manager/ architecte... So... really I should be paying my artisans hard cash? And renegotiate all the estimates?

Can some of the Anglo/French workers comment?

Thank you
A

[YankeePorker]

AndrewCrown said:

Dear All

I've been reading this rather negative thread for a bit...

I'm remotely rennovating a French place with a project manager/ architecte... So... really I should be paying my artisans hard cash? And renegotiate all the estimates?

Can some of the Anglo/French workers comment?

Thank you
A

A point to take into account in your calcs, if you are a non-resident when you one day sell your property in France, you will pay nearly 50% tax on any "profit" if the property has increased in value. Work done on the property cannot be set against this tax, so effectively you should try to minimise the cost of such work as a huge improvement in the property's value will cost you when you sell.

When I lived there and was negotiating work with builders there were several considerations to retake into account. For big jobs paying the full paper price of the work was worthwhile just to gave the necessary guarantees and insurance cover.

For smaller jobs I would normally demand a written quote then negotiate a reduced price for cash. The reduced price wasn't just the reduction due to VAT but also a part of the benefit made by the builder in reduced corporate tax and social security, so I'd fight for 20%ish (VAT was at 5.5% for much of the work at the time). Once the work was done, I was happy and no-one had been injured/died during the work, I'd pay them off in cash and rip up the quote.

[AndrewCrown]

Thanks YP some very useful advice there.. Noted on smaller jobs... BTW VAT is 10% now for restoration...

YankeePorker said:

A point to take into account in your calcs, if you are a non-resident when you one day sell your property in France, you will pay nearly 50% tax on any "profit" if the property has increased in value. Work done on the property cannot be set against this tax, so effectively you should try to minimise the cost of such work as a huge improvement in the property's value will cost you when you sell.

When I lived there and was negotiating work with builders there were several considerations to retake into account. For big jobs paying the full paper price of the work was worthwhile just to gave the necessary guarantees and insurance cover.

For smaller jobs I would normally demand a written quote then negotiate a reduced price for cash. The reduced price wasn't just the reduction due to VAT but also a part of the benefit made by the builder in reduced corporate tax and social security, so I'd fight for 20%ish (VAT was at 5.5% for much of the work at the time). Once the work was done, I was happy and no-one had been injured/died during the work, I'd pay them off in cash and rip up the quote.

[iiyama]

I was under the impression that if you have lived in the renovated property for 15 years, (?), then the above didn't apply?

[Driller]

A lot of experience here and sense being spoken, especially Russ and crossy67 you seem to have been "living the dream".

Andrewcrown, ABSOLUTELY pay in cash or at least wait for the first quote and then offer a cash price (at least 20% off but try 25-30). With all the ridiculous social charges, "normal" prices are high and because of the black culture they are artificially inflated to both provoke a cash offer and to have more after a cash discount.

Welcome to the Bordel

[zbc]

Following this with interest having just returned to the UK after 11 years away, most of it in France. I was (according to the thread) one of the lucky ones with a well paid, salaried job. Unfortunately when that came to an end I couldn't find a similar role in France and although I enjoyed the absurdly generous unemployment pay for a few months finally took a job back in the UK. I really miss the lifestyle there but working here is so nice. It's a real shock as I'm now working in a company that is amazingly customer obsessed and this just doesn't exist in France.

[paulwirral]

YankeePorker said:

A point to take into account in your calcs, if you are a non-resident when you one day sell your property in France, you will pay nearly 50% tax on any "profit" if the property has increased in value. Work done on the property cannot be set against this tax, so effectively you should try to minimise the cost of such work as a huge improvement in the property's value will cost you when you sell.

When I lived there and was negotiating work with builders there were several considerations to retake into account. For big jobs paying the full paper price of the work was worthwhile just to gave the necessary guarantees and insurance cover.

For smaller jobs I would normally demand a written quote then negotiate a reduced price for cash. The reduced price wasn't just the reduction due to VAT but also a part of the benefit made by the builder in reduced corporate tax and social security, so I'd fight for 20%ish (VAT was at 5.5% for much of the work at the time). Once the work was done, I was happy and no-one had been injured/died during the work, I'd pay them off in cash and rip up the quote.

And when you do sell the notiare kindly does the tax calculation for you and deducts anything owed from the sale funds and forwards it to the taxman for you !

[YankeePorker]

YankeePorker said:

A point to take into account in your calcs, if you are a non-resident when you one day sell your property in France, you will pay nearly 50% tax on any "profit" if the property has increased in value. Work done on the property cannot be set against this tax, so effectively you should try to minimise the cost of such work as a huge improvement in the property's value will cost you when you sell.

Having just looked in more detail on froggy tax sites it seems that the 48.8% tax figure is actually only 34.5% for EU residents, so less painful for you unless UKIP and BREXIT happen!

It was one of Hollande's early moves to add the CSG tax of 15.5% to the previous tax figures of 33.3% (or 19% for EU residents) - he knew that the population wouldn't fight to protect the interests of foreign non-residents or fellow frogs fleeing the big lily pad (as many have) so it was an easy target.

[crossy67]

YankeePorker said:

Having just looked in more detail on froggy tax sites it seems that the 48.8% tax figure is actually only 34.5% for EU residents, so less painful for you unless UKIP and BREXIT happen!

It was one of Hollande's early moves to add the CSG tax of 15.5% to the previous tax figures of 33.3% (or 19% for EU residents) - he knew that the population wouldn't fight to protect the interests of foreign non-residents or fellow frogs fleeing the big lily pad (as many have) so it was an easy target.

What is all this tax talk? Is that for capital gains or income tax? I am AE, it works better for me. The French tax system is baffling with more different regimes than people working in France so it seems.

As I understand it, your cotisations for BIC Micro etc are roundabout 43-46% then you pay 2% tax.

One of the biggest problems here is finding an accountant that will work you you and not the republique. We had a great accountant in the UK who was straight as an arrow, we never paid more than we had to and never paid less than was due. Here they just don't seem to want to help you.


The rambling bit about the wine was meant to point out that this is the French way of life but they will never tell you this. I have a couple of French friends who do this yet British people will argue the toss that it never happens, probably because of the French by and large being so candid.

[Fatt McMissile]

Whilst the cost of repairs, even major ones, of a holiday home are not taken into account when calculating capital gain, the costs of enlargements, construction, reconstruction, and improvements are, providing you can prove that they have been carried out by a bona fide business, ie you have the bills to prove it.
Additionally the purchase cost is automatically upscaled by 15% for the calculation after 5yrs ownership.

Information on this is freely available on the notaires.fr website and others.

Another point to consider if you pay artisans on the black, is that if for example your house burns down due to a problem with a flue fitted in the past 10 years, your insurance company will ask to see the bill and insurance certificate of the fitter in order to make a claim against him.
French folk will have their ways of dealing with such issues, but in rural France they will be "employing artisans" that in many cases are members of their extended family or that they have known all their lives which makes things easier if problems arise.
Steve

[crossy67]

Or they have fitted the flue them selves

[Digga]

crossy67 said:

For example, they will go and buy fresh wine from the vine yards in big plastic tubs for cash, take it home and bottle it them selves. The vintners make some black money and the peasants get their good quality wine to lay down in their caves for 10 years without the tax man knowing about it.

I know for a fact that exactly this goes on in Greece for precisely the same reasons. Okay, their wine is less palatable and valuable, but that kind of misses the other aspect of the point you make about the black economy, of which this is just one example.

It is also indicative of why we're seeing deflation in Greece right now and also why the Troika will fail to establish growth in either GDP or tax take.

[Lost soul]

A common lawyer said:

Setting up a company is ridiculously complicated compared to the UK. After it's set up, the real pain begins, paying someone 1,100€ after national insurance (but before tax) will cost a company 2,225€. Unreal.

About the same as Sweden then

[AndrewCrown]

Thanks FM... I did put a new roof on and extend it and bashed new holes everywhere.... new floors etc... should be in a better position then...

Fatt McMissile said:

Whilst the cost of repairs, even major ones, of a holiday home are not taken into account when calculating capital gain, the costs of enlargements, construction, reconstruction, and improvements are, providing you can prove that they have been carried out by a bona fide business, ie you have the bills to prove it.
Additionally the purchase cost is automatically upscaled by 15% for the calculation after 5yrs ownership.

Information on this is freely available on the notaires.fr website and others.

Another point to consider if you pay artisans on the black, is that if for example your house burns down due to a problem with a flue fitted in the past 10 years, your insurance company will ask to see the bill and insurance certificate of the fitter in order to make a claim against him.
French folk will have their ways of dealing with such issues, but in rural France they will be "employing artisans" that in many cases are members of their extended family or that they have known all their lives which makes things easier if problems arise.
Steve