Importing a UK Kit Car into France

Importing a UK Kit Car into France

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v8250

2,724 posts

210 months

Saturday 20th December 2014
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lowdrag said:
Well, thank you for the compliments, and a happy Xmas to you too!

If it is now as easy as you say it is to register a re3plica here, the news doesn't seem to have reached the Sarthe,
Hello Tony,

For those of us with good [read, nigh on impossible...] experience of the French registration system we know from first hand experience the news hasn't reached 90+% of the Hexagon...

All,

The French registration system is draconian; full stop. It is designed to control the types of vehicles permissible to be French registered in France, irrespective of European legislation. The reason? To protect the French automotive industry.

Those of you who doubt this...I had a meeting with the DRIRE some years ago. In the room were five senior DRIRE representatives who made it crystal clear that France would never accept any vehicle that could/would undermine a sale of a French vehicle within the nation state. My interest being I had been asked by two well known UK based small volume specialist car manufacturers to represent them in France, Italy and Switzerland. Naturally, one completes the necessary background work for individual state approvals...and I can tell you, the DRIRE would not, under any circumstance approve any of the specialist vehicles. I came away from the meeting very disappointed. Not of the result, but the sheer ignorance shown by the DRIRE management and their introspective fonctionnaire mentality.

For those of us who have lived in France/had a long association with French legislature, we know that this mentality is rife within all walks of French life and jurisdiction. Like Tony, I have had close association within the classic car world/historic motorsport for many years. I have been asked to help three significant car owners obtain French registration for cars over the past nine years. Each time I have advised against this process. Each time the owners were near determined to re-register UK registered/manufactured specialist cars. To a man, they failed. Not because of the calibre of vehicle...two of which are high value, high calibre hand crafted replicas similar to Tony's stunning XKSS...but because they are simply 'not recognized' within French DRIRE/DREAL officialdom. In each case the owners were willing to invest whatever was needed for French registration. In each case, no amount of monies would have secured registration.

Sadly, France misses out on a much richer historic car movement and industry directly due to their obstructive regulations. This is immediately noticeable within their classic car movement which, for a nation of such rich motoring heritage, is, quite frankly, piss poor.

As for the above three car examples, they still retain their original UK registrations and reside permanently in France. This is known to the 'authorities' who, to an extent, ignore the fact. I sometimes wonder if the French authorities look upon this "d'habitude Anglaise", of having Castrol R in our blood and wearing wonderfully used overalls as our Sunday 'best', as simply a great English eccentricity. Ultimately, it does not help the enthusiastic historic car owner in wanting to do the right thing, to ensure their vehicles are 100% French compliant, to not run the risk of an important period vehicle being impounded. I will be returning to France in the near future...and I, for one, will be retaining the UK registration...irrespective of where the car resides.

pfsv427sc01

84 posts

147 months

Sunday 21st December 2014
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Expatloon said:
lowdrag said:
Which is why for 15 years since I moved here my cars have stayed on UK plates.
What a puerile excuse !

Registering both modern euroboxes and older cars via the FFVE is childs play even for those who's language skills are not as well honed as you say yours are.

I think we can all take an educated guess as to why you illeglly stay on UK plates even if you're not big enough to admit it.
Sorry, I do not understand. If it is such a purple exercise, then why am I having so many difficulties ?

The FFVE is for vehicles over 30 years old, which mine is not and the modern Eurobox can be done through the regular system. It is the Specials that are having issues such as kit cars and replicas.

Maybe you didn't read the full thread ?

lowdrag

12,869 posts

212 months

Sunday 21st December 2014
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Let's take things a bit further so perhaps those who have Castrol R in their blood can understand that the French have only Pastis. Earlier this year I was helping a local club member import a Lotus 11 into France. Now the make of car is actually on the approved list here, but in my discussions I found out that just as Caterham bought the rights to the Lotus 7, so the rights to build the 11 were transferred to Argentina. Yet the identical car to one made in the UK was not on the list and everything fell by the wayside.

Again I repeat, my Lynx is, according to the chassis number, a 1967 2+2 E-type and is shown on the V5 as an E-type coupé. It isn't 30 years old either. Now let's move on to the utterly stupid and bureaucratic part of the French "carte grise de collection". The benefit is an MOT every five years, instead of two. But, and here comes the stupidity of it, you are only allowed to drive your car in your home department and in the departments touching your department. If you want to go further afield on tour you need to give the planned route to each Préfecture along the way and get their written permission. Yes, you read correctly. Utterly barmy.

I mean, in October we had a lovely Sunday so out came the car and we headed to the seaside. On French plates that would have been illegal.

pfsv427sc01

84 posts

147 months

Sunday 21st December 2014
quotequote all
Expatloon said:
lowdrag said:
Which is why for 15 years since I moved here my cars have stayed on UK plates.
What a puerile excuse !

Registering both modern euroboxes and older cars via the FFVE is childs play even for those who's language skills are not as well honed as you say yours are.

I think we can all take an educated guess as to why you illeglly stay on UK plates even if you're not big enough to admit it.
Sorry, I do not understand. If it is such a purple exercise, then why am I having so many difficulties ?

The FFVE is for vehicles over 30 years old, which mine is not and the modern Eurobox can be done through the regular system. It is the Specials that are having issues such as kit cars and replicas.

Maybe you didn't read the full thread ?

racerbob

270 posts

179 months

Sunday 21st December 2014
quotequote all
lowdrag said:
Let's take things a bit further so perhaps those who have Castrol R in their blood can understand that the French have only Pastis. Earlier this year I was helping a local club member import a Lotus 11 into France. Now the make of car is actually on the approved list here, but in my discussions I found out that just as Caterham bought the rights to the Lotus 7, so the rights to build the 11 were transferred to Argentina. Yet the identical car to one made in the UK was not on the list and everything fell by the wayside.

Again I repeat, my Lynx is, according to the chassis number, a 1967 2+2 E-type and is shown on the V5 as an E-type coupé. It isn't 30 years old either. Now let's move on to the utterly stupid and bureaucratic part of the French "carte grise de collection". The benefit is an MOT every five years, instead of two. But, and here comes the stupidity of it, you are only allowed to drive your car in your home department and in the departments touching your department. If you want to go further afield on tour you need to give the planned route to each Préfecture along the way and get their written permission. Yes, you read correctly. Utterly barmy.

I mean, in October we had a lovely Sunday so out came the car and we headed to the seaside. On French plates that would have been illegal.
Sorry lowdrag but the limitation for usage on CG collection was changed about 5 years ago, you are free to drive anywhere now. Also, within 2 clubs local to me, we have re - registered AC Cobra replicas, Robin hood Lotus 7 reps, NG TD replicas as well as a couple of 1950's Alvis dropheads. There is also a dealer near me who imports UK replicas and re- registeres them, sometimes converts them to LHD and then sells 'em.
If you buy the journal 'La Vie de l' Auto, in the classifieds you'll always find 'replicas' that are French reg and on normal carte Gris, so there must be an easy way or folk wouldn't do it. Not sure how your insurance works, you can't get control technique on uk plates, and you are sorn , so therefore no UK MOT, unless I'm missing something?

Fatt McMissile

330 posts

132 months

Sunday 21st December 2014
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"you can't get control technique on uk plates"
That's not strictly correct Racerbob, when you import a >4yr old car the CT is carried out on the UK plates and these are shown on the vignette. Whether it can be done again two years later I don't know, but I get on well with my CT station and they are very helpful.
However, if you live opposite a Gendarmerie capitaine's holiday home like me, you tend to do everything by the book....
Steve

lowdrag

12,869 posts

212 months

Sunday 21st December 2014
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Just shows how far out of date I am racerbob! However, accepting that the rule on "limitrophe" disappeared in 2009, I have been researching forums here and people seem still to be saying that registering a replica is still impossible. I'll look into it again from this end in the new year.

pfsv427sc01

84 posts

147 months

Monday 22nd December 2014
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Racerbob, as you can see, I am still trying to get mine registered so would be very interested in talking with someone who has done it. Where are you located ? I am in 24320 so would love to find someone local.

Cheers

Paul

racerbob

270 posts

179 months

Monday 22nd December 2014
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pfsv427sc01 said:
Racerbob, as you can see, I am still trying to get mine registered so would be very interested in talking with someone who has done it. Where are you located ? I am in 24320 so would love to find someone local.

Cheers

Paul
Hi again,

i must admit, according to my friendly Control tech man (who is also secretary in our local historic vehicle club) the difficulty can vary from dept to dept, and how the fellas at DRIRE are set up, and how many 'replicas' they've done before, especially owned by the French, who will obviously have an 'advantage' language and otherwise.

I am in the Morbihan 56, but if you look on a site, I think it's called British Pistons, this guy buys a lot of old and newer stuff from the UK, including replicas (in the past) it may be worth having a chat.

Good luck anyway


Edited by racerbob on Monday 22 December 13:40

racerbob

270 posts

179 months

Monday 22nd December 2014
quotequote all
Fatt McMissile said:
"you can't get control technique on uk plates"
That's not strictly correct Racerbob, when you import a >4yr old car the CT is carried out on the UK plates and these are shown on the vignette. Whether it can be done again two years later I don't know, but I get on well with my CT station and they are very helpful.
However, if you live opposite a Gendarmerie capitaine's holiday home like me, you tend to do everything by the book....
Steve
Steve , yes I know you can do it the first time around, after that.... some CT centres ask for evidence that you are going through the 'process' of registration before they'll do anything. I'm ok, I live next door to the Maire's secretary !!! so all done by the book here too !!

lowdrag

12,869 posts

212 months

Monday 22nd December 2014
quotequote all
Er, 10 years back I was talking to the "mines" and they threw their hands up in horror at my Lynx. They suggested tentatively that to approve the car it might first have to partake of the crash test. Naturally, at my expense. I courteously declined the offer.

racerbob

270 posts

179 months

Tuesday 23rd December 2014
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lowdrag said:
Er, 10 years back I was talking to the "mines" and they threw their hands up in horror at my Lynx. They suggested tentatively that to approve the car it might first have to partake of the crash test. Naturally, at my expense. I courteously declined the offer.
Yes I've heard likewise experiences from years gone by, but it couldn't have always been like that. I've just been reading about a French owned / registered Bugatti type 40 which, sometime in the 50-60's was modified to take a body from an MG TD !!!

Also, I have a Brit near neighbour who has lived out here in South Brittany since the early 70's who reckons things were a lot more 'flexible' with car registration back then, in fact this guy still has most of the remains of his past means of transport littered about in his field, he can't bear to dispose of anything, just replaces them when the time comes, in fact his house is like a living museum, lovely chap though.

mark099

Original Poster:

8 posts

219 months

Sunday 11th January 2015
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Wow. Seems like this is a difficult subject all round for everyone. I think I will talk to our Marie to see if he has any contacts

lowdrag

12,869 posts

212 months

Sunday 11th January 2015
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As promised I have discussed the matter in depth and was amazed to meet someone here with a Pilgrim Cobra replica on French plates. Now he bought it like that so, since he needed a new windscreen for the car but you have to go to the UK for them due to breakages and lack of insurance, I said I'd be not far away and got it for him. In discussion with Pilgrim the mentioned someone at Toulouse who was very helpful in getting replicas registered and who seemed to have the right connections. Over to you since I've forgotten the ruddy name!

mark099

Original Poster:

8 posts

219 months

Sunday 11th January 2015
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Brilliant, Thank You. I will start the quest

pfsv427sc01

84 posts

147 months

Monday 12th January 2015
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Hi Lowdrag

It wouldn't have been Alain Soupart by any chance ? If so, he sadly passed away in November as I was trying to utilise his services to assist me.

Mark, if you find any further info, please post as I am getting very frustrated. I know everyone tells me this is France but the hanging around and waiting for feedback, is doing my head in !!

Thanks
Paul

lowdrag

12,869 posts

212 months

Monday 12th January 2015
quotequote all
Yes, that was the name I believe. Never one door shuts but another slams in your face, as the old adage goes. Since it was Pilgrim who aided me, perhaps the old Robin Hood might be able to help? I don't know, but might be worth a call.

http://www.greatbritishsportscars.co.uk/


HTH

pfsv427sc01

84 posts

147 months

Monday 2nd February 2015
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So, if anyone is still interested in my attempt at getting my Cobra rep registered here in France, I have been defeated.

Having used the services of a French "fixer" and trying to do everything the correct way, the DREAL are still insisting that I take may car for a UTAC test in Paris at a cost of 2000 Euros with no guarantee of success. Given the various upgrades made since it passed the SVA, in 2001, I am sure that it will not comply, not least of which because they are wanting to test against some 2007 technical specifications !

I have already replaced the headlights and various other lenses with E marked versions, made a bracket up for the front number plate and agreed to get the chassis restamped on the right hand side, this is still not enough.

It may, note the word "may", be possible to register a car that had been tested to the later IVA standard as there is a "Mutual Recognition Scheme" that may allow the UK test to be sufficient for the French authorities.

Good luck to anyone else trying and please keep others informed as this is a sticky issue for so many people.

Paul

StoatWithToast

2,101 posts

255 months

Wednesday 4th February 2015
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Sorry to hear that!

We're looking at importing our XI and Elise at some point.
The Elise should be easy (ha!) as a standard Eurobox but I can only ever see the XI being a PITA or impossible. It was IVA'd but the usual things have happened since, making it harder to justify making it road legal to the French authorities.

The Impreza is currently living in France on UK plates with a 365 abroad insurance policy, but the round trip for MOT and annual (larger) service adds up to more than the car is worth. It actually adds up to more than a nice hire car for the time we are spending there at the moment. If we could do a CT instead of an MOT that would make it far nicer from a cash perspective, but also mean that the days it lives in France adds up to more than compulsory re-registration.

I heard, but have not seen the directives myself, that the EU were trying to get unify road-compliance testing across the EU members so German car can be tested in Montenegro with no issues... anybody have any news on that?

lowdrag

12,869 posts

212 months

Thursday 5th February 2015
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I have just been going through the same discussion with my insurer, and they tried to say that if a car spends more than six months in any country it must be registered in that country. So I pointed out that while this is the EEC law, it is also the law that one must go to church on Sunday in the UK, but I don't see many people being arrested for nor so doing. I explained fully that if I need then I have a French MOT to cover the interim until I get the car back to Blighty and leave it on a SORN, which applies to the UK only anyway. I had the reply yesterday from my brokers that the insurers have accepted the position. When I go back, I pre-book my MOT for the same day, get off the ferry at Portsmouth at 8am and at 10am have the new MOT to tax the car. Adrian Flux will insure you on that basis, but getting through on their phone system is a pain.