VX220 Turbo v Elise...
Discussion
jl34 said:
I think if everyone here took there blinkers of the badge and sat in both cars and just floored the throttle pedal , there would be only one choice.
....and there in lies the very point you are missing. The Elise was never about straightline speed, it was all about the handling. I counldn't care less if someone wants to overtake me in a straight line.I have driven various variants of the Elise and VX, and while the VX is a mighty fine car, is £ for £ quicker than equivalent elise variants, the simple fact is that they do handle differently.
On that basis, having driven both, with no preconception or blinkers, I do agree that there is indeed only one choice....... for me it's the Elise.
Regards, Neil
Whatever variant you drive, enjoy the ride and go safe.
I think all elise variants are fantastic cars, I think with a similar Geo set up the handling is remarkably similar, which is no great surpise really!
However the point i was making is that a VX turbo is incredibly cheap and easy to make over 250ft/lb torque. And a huge push in the back through vivid acceleration is an incredibly exciting sensation in driving a sports car. One that is missing in many elise Variants. Flooring it and getting a big shove from a 250bhp , 250ft/lb turbo that makes it's peak torque over 4,000 rpm lower than a 190R, puts a far bigger grin on your face than having a nicer badge on the bonnet.
If any sports car driver wants to really convince themselves that acceleration is a sensation that doesnt interest them i think they are fooling themselves! As such i think the VX should be considered a fantastic alternative in the elise platform family.
However the point i was making is that a VX turbo is incredibly cheap and easy to make over 250ft/lb torque. And a huge push in the back through vivid acceleration is an incredibly exciting sensation in driving a sports car. One that is missing in many elise Variants. Flooring it and getting a big shove from a 250bhp , 250ft/lb turbo that makes it's peak torque over 4,000 rpm lower than a 190R, puts a far bigger grin on your face than having a nicer badge on the bonnet.
If any sports car driver wants to really convince themselves that acceleration is a sensation that doesnt interest them i think they are fooling themselves! As such i think the VX should be considered a fantastic alternative in the elise platform family.
Shove in the back from mid revs is all well and good, but I can't tolerate turbo lag in a sports car. So I'd rather have a supercharged Elise than a VX, with the bonus that as standard it gets to 100mph a couple of seconds quicker. And I'd rather have a NA R with about the same 0-100 time and swap mid range torque for instant throttle response. Bang for buck, though, the VX is a bargain.
otolith said:
Shove in the back from mid revs is all well and good, but I can't tolerate turbo lag in a sports car. So I'd rather have a supercharged Elise than a VX, with the bonus that as standard it gets to 100mph a couple of seconds quicker. And I'd rather have a NA R with about the same 0-100 time and swap mid range torque for instant throttle response. Bang for buck, though, the VX is a bargain.
The turbo isn't for everyone, but a standard or midly tuned turbo i.e exhaust/remap there is very little lag at all. Having said that there is a market for supercharged vx's for those who prefer a more linear power delivery and there are more and more owners going down that route.I appreciate that there will be some attemot to redress the balance for those who wouldn't consider a VX because it is a Vauxhall, this is plainly wrong. But while the 2 cars are intrinsically the same, they offer subtley things to the driver.
Regardless of the suspension set up, the rear subframes and engine mass vary across the incarnations. This is what makes the S1 and early S2 special in my opinion, as I would always choose lower inertial mass over more power. My car is used on the road rather the track, and I love the way the Elise handles on a country lane where outright power advantages are tempered.
I don't think that means I am kidding myself, I get my biggest smiles in the corners not the straights. If it were the other way round I would buy a superbike.
It's the same principle in that I love TVRs, but I really don't want one.
The VX is a great car, in my eyes it is a Lotus, I just prefer handling to power, therefore the Elise wins. The margins may be small but they are real and to dismiss those who choose this route as kidding themselves, or telling people theVX is the only choice is ill advised in my opinion.
Not looking to be confrontational, I suspect we are ultimately in agreement that these are all great cars, and the range of derivatives meet a range of needs and desires (even if it is a badge snob), I wouldn't criticise anyones choice as it will ultimately be dependent on their needs, desires, values and opinions.
Stay safe.
Regards, Neil
Regardless of the suspension set up, the rear subframes and engine mass vary across the incarnations. This is what makes the S1 and early S2 special in my opinion, as I would always choose lower inertial mass over more power. My car is used on the road rather the track, and I love the way the Elise handles on a country lane where outright power advantages are tempered.
I don't think that means I am kidding myself, I get my biggest smiles in the corners not the straights. If it were the other way round I would buy a superbike.
It's the same principle in that I love TVRs, but I really don't want one.
The VX is a great car, in my eyes it is a Lotus, I just prefer handling to power, therefore the Elise wins. The margins may be small but they are real and to dismiss those who choose this route as kidding themselves, or telling people theVX is the only choice is ill advised in my opinion.
Not looking to be confrontational, I suspect we are ultimately in agreement that these are all great cars, and the range of derivatives meet a range of needs and desires (even if it is a badge snob), I wouldn't criticise anyones choice as it will ultimately be dependent on their needs, desires, values and opinions.
Stay safe.
Regards, Neil
jakewright said:
Could someone explain how they think the elise handles differently to vx? (yes, there are many variants but I doubt everyone has driven everything)
If you're not a driving God I think mere mortals like myself would struggle to tell much difference in handling between a standard vx and standard Elise. An experienced track day driver may be able to drive an Elise an extra tenth quicker round the track, but the difference would be negligible. I could half understand people buying an Elise over the vx for the badge/prestige if that's what rocks your boat but not for reasons that the handling is so much better. There too close to call in that department imo.The 16 inch wheels on the Elise give it a slightly keener turn in than the 17s on the VX and also oddly the steering wheel in the Elise I find gives it a different feel somehow.
The ride is more supply in the VX. Ignoring the Turbo for the moment the 2.2 has the best ride of any S2 Elise variant I have ever driven which is most of them. Its a thing of wonder on typical British roads. The Turbo is not far behind but slightly soft in standard trim. The Elise across the board is more firmly sprung especially the Rover engined ones.
Earlier in the thread it was mentioned that a 111R and a VXT are very similar pace. This is actually true. The VXT might be out of the blocks quicker but the 111R has a far quicker top end on that second cam zone. In terms of real world usability though the VXT is faster because the performance is more accessible. Also once its remapped it will show a 111R a clean pair of heels every time.
The ride is more supply in the VX. Ignoring the Turbo for the moment the 2.2 has the best ride of any S2 Elise variant I have ever driven which is most of them. Its a thing of wonder on typical British roads. The Turbo is not far behind but slightly soft in standard trim. The Elise across the board is more firmly sprung especially the Rover engined ones.
Earlier in the thread it was mentioned that a 111R and a VXT are very similar pace. This is actually true. The VXT might be out of the blocks quicker but the 111R has a far quicker top end on that second cam zone. In terms of real world usability though the VXT is faster because the performance is more accessible. Also once its remapped it will show a 111R a clean pair of heels every time.
i'm just in from the pub catching up with this thread burst....hic,
VX is a fine car. compared to eurobox s**t we should all be part of a happy enlightened family.
weight is key, and the VX weighs more....sorry.
turbo lag is bad, so if you must have a VX get the NA. it's not about straight line speed, leave that to VAG drivers.
A well modded NA VX would be a great car.
VX is a fine car. compared to eurobox s**t we should all be part of a happy enlightened family.
weight is key, and the VX weighs more....sorry.
turbo lag is bad, so if you must have a VX get the NA. it's not about straight line speed, leave that to VAG drivers.
A well modded NA VX would be a great car.
Robert Elise said:
i'm just in from the pub catching up with this thread burst....hic,
VX is a fine car. compared to eurobox s**t we should all be part of a happy enlightened family.
weight is key, and the VX weighs more....sorry.
turbo lag is bad, so if you must have a VX get the NA. it's not about straight line speed, leave that to VAG drivers.
A well modded NA VX would be a great car.
It is. I used to have one, tried a few different suspensions, 16's at front. SC'd, 250bhp.VX is a fine car. compared to eurobox s**t we should all be part of a happy enlightened family.
weight is key, and the VX weighs more....sorry.
turbo lag is bad, so if you must have a VX get the NA. it's not about straight line speed, leave that to VAG drivers.
A well modded NA VX would be a great car.
I am no driving god so weight differences would be negligible for me, even on track.
There's no doubt that you can make a VXT very fast indeed very cheaply. The way the world is going, you are a lucky man if you don't notice turbo lag or it doesn't bother you. I like the mid range surge in my Saab, but I don't like the disconnect between revs, throttle position and torque. I Can live with it in a barge, but it would drive me nuts in a sportscar. Equally, I know some people don't get on with high-revving cars - I love them, and so long as they have enough mid range to be driven normally I don't care that they need the right gear to serve up all the goods. I think anything with 200+ bhp/ton would need a really bizarre torque curve not to be adequate for punting it about when you aren't in the mood.
In terms of the difference in handling between Elise variants, I don't think it's really a question of which is quicker round a track at the limit, it's more subtle differences in how they feel.
In terms of the difference in handling between Elise variants, I don't think it's really a question of which is quicker round a track at the limit, it's more subtle differences in how they feel.
I think thats right. In my experience something that has the turn in and agility of the Rover K series Elise combined with the magical ride of the 2.2 VX would make for a very nice comprimise. The nearest you can get is the Toyots "S" Elise which is a fine car and far superior to the 111R.
fridaypassion said:
I think thats right. In my experience something that has the turn in and agility of the Rover K series Elise combined with the magical ride of the 2.2 VX would make for a very nice comprimise. The nearest you can get is the Toyots "S" Elise which is a fine car and far superior to the 111R.
That's possibly the first time I've heard someone say this. I purchased the 'yota S on the basis I prefer Linear power, and don't enjoy ragging the nuts off it to benefit from the cam lift. At the time when I purchased most people were urging me to go for the R, but I stood my ground, and so pleased I did now. I'm sure on track the R is the one to go for, but for daily use on public roads, I much prefer the S.I suppose I could always pull the fuse on the lift mechanism - the torque curves are pretty similar up to that point.
Personally, I think if I wasn't bothered about it being a bit slow, I'd rather have a lighter base Rover engined car. Or if I wanted the performance but didn't get on with the power delivery, a 111S.
Personally, I think if I wasn't bothered about it being a bit slow, I'd rather have a lighter base Rover engined car. Or if I wanted the performance but didn't get on with the power delivery, a 111S.
fridaypassion said:
Anyone thats spent a proper amount of time driving them would pick the S. A Short test drive the R would probably stand out more but after a morning banging your head against a wall trying to get some space to access the second cam zone.....
A remap can smooth the kick of the R quite a lot though. I enjoy being a gear below where I'd usually be most of the time because I like the exhaust note but even staying off cam, it's plenty quick enough. I don't get the massive kick of the 2nd cam on mine though.Interesting thread but for those not close to the VX scene, there are a number of very common mods for the VX that address the driving experience so that the areas that the lotus was once stronger are neutralised and arguably have now transformed it into a better car than the Elise/Exige (unless you prefer the badge/looks of the lotus, in which case buy the lotus).
When the VX was launched, it had 17 inch front wheels that really didn't help the handling and got some criticisms in reviews such as EVO. This is easily fixed and most have now swapped the wheels for a 16/17" combo which makes a big difference (as that's how lotus designed the chassis to work).
Weight seems to be a complaint by many Lotus owners but while they're heavier than an S1 and early K-series S2 (which they were compared to at launch) they weigh about the same as the yota S2's onwards so it's not like they're an old boat anchor. The later yota's were more comparable to the spec of the VX (ABS, airbag etc.) so really the VX was just ahead of it's time here.
As for turbo lag, the solution seems to be to start with the 2.2 model and add a GM supercharger. For around £3.5k, you'll get 245 bhp & 220 lbft in a car that is lighter than an Exige SC and has a proper charge cooling system with OEM reliability (comes from GM Saturn/Cobalt Ion). A number of turbo vx owners have swapped out their turbo and bought/converted a 2.2 for this very reason. The 2.2 base car is around 875kg's, so with the charger & charge cooler comes in around 900kg's (Exige SC = 930kg's)
The other criticism of the VX at launch was the terrible 2-channel ABS system. This is easily fixed by plugging in a lotus 4-channel module (which many owners have already done) or just disconnecting the ABS completely.
Overall there's very little reason from a driving perspective that the Elise/Exige should be considered superior and the prices of well prepared SC VX's seems to be reflecting this recently as others cotton on to the fact. If you prefer the looks (as some of us do) then it's a no brainer.
When the VX was launched, it had 17 inch front wheels that really didn't help the handling and got some criticisms in reviews such as EVO. This is easily fixed and most have now swapped the wheels for a 16/17" combo which makes a big difference (as that's how lotus designed the chassis to work).
Weight seems to be a complaint by many Lotus owners but while they're heavier than an S1 and early K-series S2 (which they were compared to at launch) they weigh about the same as the yota S2's onwards so it's not like they're an old boat anchor. The later yota's were more comparable to the spec of the VX (ABS, airbag etc.) so really the VX was just ahead of it's time here.
As for turbo lag, the solution seems to be to start with the 2.2 model and add a GM supercharger. For around £3.5k, you'll get 245 bhp & 220 lbft in a car that is lighter than an Exige SC and has a proper charge cooling system with OEM reliability (comes from GM Saturn/Cobalt Ion). A number of turbo vx owners have swapped out their turbo and bought/converted a 2.2 for this very reason. The 2.2 base car is around 875kg's, so with the charger & charge cooler comes in around 900kg's (Exige SC = 930kg's)
The other criticism of the VX at launch was the terrible 2-channel ABS system. This is easily fixed by plugging in a lotus 4-channel module (which many owners have already done) or just disconnecting the ABS completely.
Overall there's very little reason from a driving perspective that the Elise/Exige should be considered superior and the prices of well prepared SC VX's seems to be reflecting this recently as others cotton on to the fact. If you prefer the looks (as some of us do) then it's a no brainer.
Edited by MR2_SC on Saturday 25th October 22:44
These days the main reason for choosing a Lotus over a VX is that its easier to find a nice Lotus. As many of you will know I'm a specialist trader in this area and its almost impossible to get a good clean low mileage VX220. Lots of tatty examples out there. For some reason and this is a sweeping generalisation for which I apologise but the Vx's dont seem to be as well looked after often been parked outside which is not good for these cars especially in winter. I've had a few in this year but only two what I would call exceptional ones. They sold for £14500 (Turbo) and £13500 (SC) so decent prices well into Lotus territory.
They make superb project cars though. If you were planning to build a track car or refresh and make a nice road car its more cost effective to start with a 6k HPI clear VX chassis. The cheapest S2 Elise starters are still hovering round the 10k mark and engine upgrades for over 200BHP are vastly more expensive.
I've had a 160 VVC put in my S2 (costing a grand) which is plenty quick enough but you are looking at Honda or Audi for big power with no change from 10k.
My car has Quantums and a LSD with 16/17 TDs and I might be biased but its one of the best I've driven. In the real world its as quick as a 111R with nice power delivery and you can drift roundabouts in it
Top fun and very much at the bargain basement end of things in terms of what its cost to put together. The K series is not the "best" engine in lots of ways but it has character than the Toyota and GM cars can only dream of and the noise is amazing.
I think if you could get an S2 Variant that rides like a 2.2 VX with the handling of the S2 and nice power delivery that suits the chassis that would be awesome. Oh hang on....Its the 'Yota S!
They make superb project cars though. If you were planning to build a track car or refresh and make a nice road car its more cost effective to start with a 6k HPI clear VX chassis. The cheapest S2 Elise starters are still hovering round the 10k mark and engine upgrades for over 200BHP are vastly more expensive.
I've had a 160 VVC put in my S2 (costing a grand) which is plenty quick enough but you are looking at Honda or Audi for big power with no change from 10k.
My car has Quantums and a LSD with 16/17 TDs and I might be biased but its one of the best I've driven. In the real world its as quick as a 111R with nice power delivery and you can drift roundabouts in it
Top fun and very much at the bargain basement end of things in terms of what its cost to put together. The K series is not the "best" engine in lots of ways but it has character than the Toyota and GM cars can only dream of and the noise is amazing. I think if you could get an S2 Variant that rides like a 2.2 VX with the handling of the S2 and nice power delivery that suits the chassis that would be awesome. Oh hang on....Its the 'Yota S!
fridaypassion said:
These days the main reason for choosing a Lotus over a VX is that its easier to find a nice Lotus. As many of you will know I'm a specialist trader in this area and its almost impossible to get a good clean low mileage VX220. Lots of tatty examples out there. For some reason and this is a sweeping generalisation for which I apologise but the Vx's dont seem to be as well looked after often been parked outside which is not good for these cars especially in winter. I've had a few in this year but only two what I would call exceptional ones. They sold for £14500 (Turbo) and £13500 (SC) so decent prices well into Lotus territory.
You took the words out of my mouth. Exactly this.I never quite got to even stepping inside the Vauxhall. It would have been my first new car, went to the dealer in the local town I grew up in, I'd drive past it shining in the shop window every morning I drove to work. After some hard work and saving I thought I'd buy one.
When I eventually walked in the dealer and was walking around said car the salesman came running over, only to lock the door and walk off. Went to a Lotus dealer, completely different experience, had to borrow a few thousand pounds to make up the shortfall and the rest is history as they say.
I actually liked the lines of the VX220. The Series 2 Elise though was something special. I never thought these cars were about outright speed, never quite sure why they strapped a turbo to it.
When I eventually walked in the dealer and was walking around said car the salesman came running over, only to lock the door and walk off. Went to a Lotus dealer, completely different experience, had to borrow a few thousand pounds to make up the shortfall and the rest is history as they say.
I actually liked the lines of the VX220. The Series 2 Elise though was something special. I never thought these cars were about outright speed, never quite sure why they strapped a turbo to it.
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