at Are Elise that bad in the wet?
Discussion
pthelazyjourno said:
Tyres have done under 1000 miles, Yoko Advan Neovas, so not cheapo ditchfinders. Greasy conditions, not actually raining at the time, and not requiring specifically jerky behaviour to get the back to step out. Granted, it was done intentionally, but with smooth steering and relatively progressive throttle input it could easily have happened by accident to somebody new to RWD.
Not knowing how a RWD mid engined, short car behaves shouldn't be an excuse, if you are new to something you don't have experience with take it easy. It is a reason for the potential to get it wrong I'd say. People should build up, go on car limits days, get on track regardless of conditions. Then they won't be surprised, you said it yourself where I quoted, you can provoke a slide easily. You do that by doing something you know will make it happen. To avoid it happening you simply don't do the actions that provoke it. The car didn't do it, you did it.Edited by pthelazyjourno on Friday 4th January 22:28
I have AD08'd on my car, LSD and 190bhp. I could make it do a 180 spin stationary, I can slide it out of a junction at 2 mph its really easy to loose traction at this time of year, wet cold and on summer /track type tyres. From owning mid engined / rwd stuff for the last 14 years as all year round daily drivers I do think if you know what you are doing they won't randomly bite - its always driver error. Usually as simple as too much throttle in the wrong place, cambered surface, on a bend, after the 1st rain after a dry spell etc all stuff you can learn and avoid.
Herman Toothrot said:
Not knowing how a RWD mid engined, short car behaves shouldn't be an excuse, if you are new to something you don't have experience with take it easy. It is a reason for the potential to get it wrong I'd say. People should build up, go on car limits days, get on track regardless of conditions. Then they won't be surprised, you said it yourself where I quoted, you can provoke a slide easily. You do that by doing something you know will make it happen. To avoid it happening you simply don't do the actions that provoke it. The car didn't do it, you did it.
I have AD08'd on my car, LSD and 190bhp. I could make it do a 180 spin stationary, I can slide it out of a junction at 2 mph its really easy to loose traction at this time of year, wet cold and on summer /track type tyres. From owning mid engined / rwd stuff for the last 14 years as all year round daily drivers I do think if you know what you are doing they won't randomly bite - its always driver error. Usually as simple as too much throttle in the wrong place, cambered surface, on a bend, after the 1st rain after a dry spell etc all stuff you can learn and avoid.
It's a nice attempt at telling us that you're an utter driving god and that utter driving god's will never ever make a mistake when they're driving, but I'm afraid you're still wrong.I have AD08'd on my car, LSD and 190bhp. I could make it do a 180 spin stationary, I can slide it out of a junction at 2 mph its really easy to loose traction at this time of year, wet cold and on summer /track type tyres. From owning mid engined / rwd stuff for the last 14 years as all year round daily drivers I do think if you know what you are doing they won't randomly bite - its always driver error. Usually as simple as too much throttle in the wrong place, cambered surface, on a bend, after the 1st rain after a dry spell etc all stuff you can learn and avoid.
What you should be saying is that if everyone were an utter driving god and every car were maintained to manufacturers spec, kept in optimum condition in all regards and never deviated or modified from at all, and that no substance such as diesel were ever to be spilt on the road surface in the dark, then it may be true that no car would ever slew sideways or break traction etc at slow speeds.
heebeegeetee said:
It's a nice attempt at telling us that you're an utter driving god and that utter driving god's will never ever make a mistake when they're driving, but I'm afraid you're still wrong.
What you should be saying is that if everyone were an utter driving god and every car were maintained to manufacturers spec, kept in optimum condition in all regards and never deviated or modified from at all, and that no substance such as diesel were ever to be spilt on the road surface in the dark, then it may be true that no car would ever slew sideways or break traction etc at slow speeds.
Definitely not a driving god, just better than some it appears.What you should be saying is that if everyone were an utter driving god and every car were maintained to manufacturers spec, kept in optimum condition in all regards and never deviated or modified from at all, and that no substance such as diesel were ever to be spilt on the road surface in the dark, then it may be true that no car would ever slew sideways or break traction etc at slow speeds.
Herman Toothrot said:
Not knowing how a RWD mid engined, short car behaves shouldn't be an excuse, if you are new to something you don't have experience with take it easy. It is a reason for the potential to get it wrong I'd say. People should build up, go on car limits days, get on track regardless of conditions. Then they won't be surprised, you said it yourself where I quoted, you can provoke a slide easily. You do that by doing something you know will make it happen. To avoid it happening you simply don't do the actions that provoke it. The car didn't do it, you did it.
I have AD08'd on my car, LSD and 190bhp. I could make it do a 180 spin stationary, I can slide it out of a junction at 2 mph its really easy to loose traction at this time of year, wet cold and on summer /track type tyres. From owning mid engined / rwd stuff for the last 14 years as all year round daily drivers I do think if you know what you are doing they won't randomly bite - its always driver error. Usually as simple as too much throttle in the wrong place, cambered surface, on a bend, after the 1st rain after a dry spell etc all stuff you can learn and avoid.
I'm not saying they do randomly bite (on the contrary, if you read my comments before the crash I actually point out that it's quite a benign car in the wet - I still believe that) and not sure from the written context if your "you" is people in general or me in particular, but for now I'm presuming the former (not least because I've covered tens of thousands of miles in Elises).I have AD08'd on my car, LSD and 190bhp. I could make it do a 180 spin stationary, I can slide it out of a junction at 2 mph its really easy to loose traction at this time of year, wet cold and on summer /track type tyres. From owning mid engined / rwd stuff for the last 14 years as all year round daily drivers I do think if you know what you are doing they won't randomly bite - its always driver error. Usually as simple as too much throttle in the wrong place, cambered surface, on a bend, after the 1st rain after a dry spell etc all stuff you can learn and avoid.
I don't think we actually disagree about what's going on or what the Elise is capable of - but unlike some of the posts here (more the chap who thinks you have to be going silly speeds and acting like an utter cock for the car to go sideways) I still think it's easy for people to make errors that result in the car going sideways without them driving like complete bell ends.
As you say - go on a driver training day and this is all too obvious, but if you haven't done that - and lots of people haven't... well from the amount of incidents, it's not. Simple as.
heebeegeetee said:
The rather naff statements you come out with aren't persuading me of that too much i'm afraid.
You are the chap who complained about boiling your MX5 brakes just coming down an Alpine pass aren't you? Now you think its normal that cars throw themselves off the road at 40mph without poor driver inputs?Herman Toothrot said:
You are the chap who complained about boiling your MX5 brakes just coming down an Alpine pass aren't you? Now you think its normal that cars throw themselves off the road at 40mph without poor driver inputs?
I never boiled the brakes on my MX5. I supercharged it, renewed the standard brakes and tyres, took it to the French alps and drove it down every col that i could find as fast as I could with no problems whatsoever.I did once just about set fire to a set of green pads on my MGB on a night rally in the Massif somewhere, but the fluid didn't boil and the brakes remained fine once they'd cooled down.
Whether it's normal for a car to throw itself off the road at 40mph is a moot point, all I can say is that I've sat in one car and witnessed another that lost control at under 40mph without poor driver input imo.
My MX5 slewed across the road in the dry at about 50mph or less. I put that down to poor alignment. My driving may have contributed but I have driven/hooned the road in question about a million times and I was doing nothing that night that was any different from any other time. Once the alignment was sorted the car did nothing of the sort again.
heebeegeetee said:
My MX5 slewed across the road in the dry at about 50mph or less. I put that down to poor alignment. My driving may have contributed but I have driven/hooned the road in question about a million times and I was doing nothing that night that was any different from any other time. Once the alignment was sorted the car did nothing of the sort again.
Without really poor alignment, which on any car with a high level of adjustment should be obvious if its hugely out I just can't see how you can 'slew across the road in the dry at about 50mph or less'. If you could then there would be class actions taken against the manufacturers.
Did you hit a slippery dead animal, the cause of every driving god accident "split diesel", a load of loose gravel? At night this happened so reduced viability, maybe you missed something? All of which I'd put under the "reading the road" umbrella.
Motorbikes would teach a lot of people a lot about reading the road for available grip and hazards.
I think these accidents are just people won't admit they screwed up and look for a blame elsewhere. I've no problem admitting in my youth I wrote off 2 cars, a Celica GT & an Austin Mini because I went too fast for the conditions and lost control - simple, the cars were not hard to control or "bad in the wet" I drove too fast, my inputs were too clumsy for the conditions (Celica ice, Mini wet) end of story.
guys, can we take it down a notch ? I replied to the posters topic with my own experience.
By my own admission I am / was inexperienced it the car I was driving and wasn't expecting it to be that twitchy in the wet despite what anyone else has said to me about it.
Unfortunately until something like that happens to you we're all driving gods.
Fact is it is possible to go sideways at slow speeds for a variety of reasons, a lot to do with driver inexperience and some to do with the car and conditions, those are the facts.
Inane comments about how good you think you are in a car are frankly irrelevant and as my father in law always tells me nature has a funny way of sorting out the arrogant from the confident.
Do you think I need to be told I was an idiot for crashing ? Do you not think I already know that ? It'd be more scary if I was saying it wasn't my fault and that Elises are easy to drive...oh wait...:-)
Let's just take the personal stuff out of it.
8.
By my own admission I am / was inexperienced it the car I was driving and wasn't expecting it to be that twitchy in the wet despite what anyone else has said to me about it.
Unfortunately until something like that happens to you we're all driving gods.
Fact is it is possible to go sideways at slow speeds for a variety of reasons, a lot to do with driver inexperience and some to do with the car and conditions, those are the facts.
Inane comments about how good you think you are in a car are frankly irrelevant and as my father in law always tells me nature has a funny way of sorting out the arrogant from the confident.
Do you think I need to be told I was an idiot for crashing ? Do you not think I already know that ? It'd be more scary if I was saying it wasn't my fault and that Elises are easy to drive...oh wait...:-)
Let's just take the personal stuff out of it.
8.
Herman Toothrot said:
If you could then there would be class actions taken against the manufacturers.
We ain't in America! Loads of cars have been redesigned over their lifetime to provide less playful handling - the Elise is actually one of them. There's a reason for more forgiving geos and narrower front tyres on the S2...
I'm no Schumacher or Button. Don't consider myself to be the worlds best driver, far from it. However after more than 30 years of accident free motoring I must have acquired some virtues. I've had a motorcycle licence for over 30 years and always owned big bikes. I consider my motorcyle experiences as an integral part of my driving tuition and certainly invaluable when it comes to evaluating climatic conditions, road surfaces, potential for accidents etc etc. One thinks differently on two wheels than four. I drive thousands of miles a year and always have done. As such I'm acutely aware of road and climatic conditions and drive accordingly. I drive within my limits and that of my vehicle. Ofcourse I've had 'heart stopping' moments throughout this time, which adds to the experience gained. In my 2 years of Lotus Elise ownership, I've not experienced any of these 'moments'. Is it down to luck or not I don't know, although would hazard a guess it's actually down to sensible driving, and particularly driving to suit the conditions. Ill retract my 'cars don't go sideways at road legal speeds' as evidently from remarks made, some do. Perhaps it should read 'shouldn't'. You may draw your own conclusions. Suffice to say, I prefer to concentrate on the fact that no-one was injured or worse, the only damage being that of the car and the drivers ego.
I think many people don't seem to understand that Elises/Exiges have near Supercar performance, specially some of the beefier ones.
Going sideways has nothing to do with speed, legal or not, but more to do with you right foot.
If you are doing 30 round a bend or coming off a roundabout and you apply too much gas you will go sideways just as you would in most Supercars if you turned off the driver aids.
If you drive to the conditions/grip available the Elise/Exige is no worse tha any other car with "equivalent performance" without driver aids.
In some ways it is better as you get more feel/feedback and you should be able to judge the traction levels better. Thats why most Lotus owners love them.
I drive my 350BHP Exige with semi slicks all year round. When it's cold/wet/icy you have to drive to the conditions and be ready for any unexpeted tail waggle.
Ex77
Going sideways has nothing to do with speed, legal or not, but more to do with you right foot.
If you are doing 30 round a bend or coming off a roundabout and you apply too much gas you will go sideways just as you would in most Supercars if you turned off the driver aids.
If you drive to the conditions/grip available the Elise/Exige is no worse tha any other car with "equivalent performance" without driver aids.
In some ways it is better as you get more feel/feedback and you should be able to judge the traction levels better. Thats why most Lotus owners love them.
I drive my 350BHP Exige with semi slicks all year round. When it's cold/wet/icy you have to drive to the conditions and be ready for any unexpeted tail waggle.
Ex77
Exige77 said:
I think many people don't seem to understand that Elises/Exiges have near Supercar performance, specially some of the beefier ones.
Going sideways has nothing to do with speed, legal or not, but more to do with you right foot.
If you are doing 30 round a bend or coming off a roundabout and you apply too much gas you will go sideways just as you would in most Supercars if you turned off the driver aids.
If you drive to the conditions/grip available the Elise/Exige is no worse tha any other car with "equivalent performance" without driver aids.
In some ways it is better as you get more feel/feedback and you should be able to judge the traction levels better. Thats why most Lotus owners love them.
I drive my 350BHP Exige with semi slicks all year round. When it's cold/wet/icy you have to drive to the conditions and be ready for any unexpeted tail waggle.
Ex77
well said...Going sideways has nothing to do with speed, legal or not, but more to do with you right foot.
If you are doing 30 round a bend or coming off a roundabout and you apply too much gas you will go sideways just as you would in most Supercars if you turned off the driver aids.
If you drive to the conditions/grip available the Elise/Exige is no worse tha any other car with "equivalent performance" without driver aids.
In some ways it is better as you get more feel/feedback and you should be able to judge the traction levels better. Thats why most Lotus owners love them.
I drive my 350BHP Exige with semi slicks all year round. When it's cold/wet/icy you have to drive to the conditions and be ready for any unexpeted tail waggle.
Ex77
the biggest problem is that 99% of drivers are not equipped with the senses to 'feel' the car under them till it's already let go.
being a short/wide car means you have much less time to react to things than more typical cars, coupled with most drivers these days all being brought up on FWD euro-bore-boxes that are so dull in the handling department that to get them to step out requires something beyond what most drivers would ever manage deliberately.
simpo555 said:
I'm no Schumacher or Button. Don't consider myself to be the worlds best driver, far from it. However after more than 30 years of accident free motoring I must have acquired some virtues. I've had a motorcycle licence for over 30 years and always owned big bikes. I consider my motorcyle experiences as an integral part of my driving tuition and certainly invaluable when it comes to evaluating climatic conditions, road surfaces, potential for accidents etc etc. One thinks differently on two wheels than four. I drive thousands of miles a year and always have done. As such I'm acutely aware of road and climatic conditions and drive accordingly. I drive within my limits and that of my vehicle. Ofcourse I've had 'heart stopping' moments throughout this time, which adds to the experience gained. In my 2 years of Lotus Elise ownership, I've not experienced any of these 'moments'. Is it down to luck or not I don't know, although would hazard a guess it's actually down to sensible driving, and particularly driving to suit the conditions. Ill retract my 'cars don't go sideways at road legal speeds' as evidently from remarks made, some do. Perhaps it should read 'shouldn't'. You may draw your own conclusions. Suffice to say, I prefer to concentrate on the fact that no-one was injured or worse, the only damage being that of the car and the drivers ego.
Here Here, Simpo, I think we can agree. Scuffers said:
Exige77 said:
I think many people don't seem to understand that Elises/Exiges have near Supercar performance, specially some of the beefier ones.
Going sideways has nothing to do with speed, legal or not, but more to do with you right foot.
If you are doing 30 round a bend or coming off a roundabout and you apply too much gas you will go sideways just as you would in most Supercars if you turned off the driver aids.
If you drive to the conditions/grip available the Elise/Exige is no worse tha any other car with "equivalent performance" without driver aids.
In some ways it is better as you get more feel/feedback and you should be able to judge the traction levels better. Thats why most Lotus owners love them.
I drive my 350BHP Exige with semi slicks all year round. When it's cold/wet/icy you have to drive to the conditions and be ready for any unexpeted tail waggle.
Ex77
well said...Going sideways has nothing to do with speed, legal or not, but more to do with you right foot.
If you are doing 30 round a bend or coming off a roundabout and you apply too much gas you will go sideways just as you would in most Supercars if you turned off the driver aids.
If you drive to the conditions/grip available the Elise/Exige is no worse tha any other car with "equivalent performance" without driver aids.
In some ways it is better as you get more feel/feedback and you should be able to judge the traction levels better. Thats why most Lotus owners love them.
I drive my 350BHP Exige with semi slicks all year round. When it's cold/wet/icy you have to drive to the conditions and be ready for any unexpeted tail waggle.
Ex77
the biggest problem is that 99% of drivers are not equipped with the senses to 'feel' the car under them till it's already let go.
being a short/wide car means you have much less time to react to things than more typical cars, coupled with most drivers these days all being brought up on FWD euro-bore-boxes that are so dull in the handling department that to get them to step out requires something beyond what most drivers would ever manage deliberately.
cre8toruk said:
All true, I would add though that knowing the cars and more importantly your own limits is one thing but knowing what to do when at 30mph (40 in my case) the car loses grip at the back and the back end slides out... that's where my gap is... I intend to learn this real soon !! :-)
actually, that not the point...the trick is to learn what the car is telling you so that you know it's about to let go before it actually does.
realistically, once they have let go (in slippery conditions), they will often go MUCH faster than your ever going to be able to react and catch, ie. it's all too late
A few of my Lotus friends and myself always organise a "private track day" in December at Abbeville in France.
It's not much of a track and it's always raining at that time of year.
We go there as a kind of "End of year bash" and bring the Wags with us and stay in a nice hotel.
We do this so we can spend most of the day sideways (or spinning) as there is very little to hit and the track is very flat.
Most of have learned how to provoke the cars to get them to go sideways but still keep them under control. You really can learn to read the signs before it all goes tits up.
You could never do this on the public road or a "normal trackday" but this kind of experience is invaluable.
Here we are messing about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuf0PhIhhlA&lis...
The Ford Ka is our tools and spares vehicle.
Don't be fooled by the blue sky, it was Bl@@dy freezing and had been raining all night.
Ex77
It's not much of a track and it's always raining at that time of year.
We go there as a kind of "End of year bash" and bring the Wags with us and stay in a nice hotel.
We do this so we can spend most of the day sideways (or spinning) as there is very little to hit and the track is very flat.
Most of have learned how to provoke the cars to get them to go sideways but still keep them under control. You really can learn to read the signs before it all goes tits up.
You could never do this on the public road or a "normal trackday" but this kind of experience is invaluable.
Here we are messing about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuf0PhIhhlA&lis...
The Ford Ka is our tools and spares vehicle.
Don't be fooled by the blue sky, it was Bl@@dy freezing and had been raining all night.
Ex77
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