at Are Elise that bad in the wet?
Discussion
In my opinion the problem (albeit not a major one) is caused by the Elise's weight distribution and driving that is unsympathetic to this; much like understeer in the Elise actually. Incidentally, the 911 has always suffered the same issues for the same reasons.
To explain further, I'll start with a quote from page one which hit the nail firmly on the head:
I agree. What Ali mentions in this quote is what, in my humble opinion, causes the vast majority of accidents and moments in all cars (along with over-correction). Now, because of the Elise's unusual weight distribution (generally around 60 to 70% to the rear, depending on the model), understeer is more likely than with most cars due to a lightly loaded front (avoidable, but more likely), and increasing the steering lock is sadly how most people react to understeer (rather than removing the real cause, which is invariably a lack of sensitity to the car's balance when cornering, especially at turn-in and mid-corner). If you do happen to increase the lock too much during understeer, then when the car finally does grip at the front (often with a lift of the throttle) - round you go. Lift off oversteer, as this is known, used to really puzzle me, because I'd tried backing off mid corner at the limit in everything I've owned, driven and raced over the years and never got any oversteer out of any of them. Once I started instructing a few people and watching track days, it dawned on me that it only ever happened with too much steering lock. It took me too long to realise this, but I worked it out eventually!
The second part of the story is that once the Elise does start oversteering, the rear-biased weight distribution gives you an awful lot of momentum in the rear end, which can cause it to get nasty much more quickly than with some other cars (a Caterham or BMW for example, where the engine's at the front). Having said that, a friend of mine who's rather handy at the oversteer game has taken his Elise S1 to drift days and seems to get on just fine! He just needs to react a bit quicker than in his other cars.
It's also worth mentioning the other cause of oversteer in cars, which is of course too much power. I don't think this is a problem at all in the Elise or any of its derivatives because of the excellent rear grip the car has due to both the weight distribution and Lotus' excellent suspension tuning. Of course it's possible to lose the back end under power in an Elise, but it's in a different league to a FE/RWD car such as a Caterham or BMW, where power induced oversteer is common and easy to generate. Obviously fiddling with the suspension and increasing horsepower change things a bit, but you've still inherently got a lot of rear grip.
One more thing: The OP mentions the Elise's 'great handling'. Whilst I'm a huge fan of the Elise (it remains the best road going daily useable sports car I've ever driven and I utterly love them), if you chat to most people in the know they don't credit the Elise with particularly great handling. The magic of the Elise is that it's utterly stupendous at everything else (e.g. suspension tuning and feedback) and the handling is still very good, so in summary it's still a fantastic car. The truth is that only small manufacturers tend to take the risk of building very focused niche cars like the Elise, and they can only afford fairly modest off the shelf engines and gearboxes etc, which lumbers the Elise with its weight distribution.
In summary though, if the OP (or anyone else) drives the Elise delicately, sympathetically and with some basic Physics in mind, it's a beautiful car to drive at any speed and oversteer won't be a problem at all. Like many owners on this forum and good friends of mine, I drove my Elise for 30,000 miles of road and track use in all weathers, whilst alert and also whilst tired and lethargic and never had a single moment. Have fun and drive fast, but be careful, and you'll be fine. The Elise is an awesome car - enjoy
To explain further, I'll start with a quote from page one which hit the nail firmly on the head:
alicrozier said:
Classic mistake is winding on too much lock as the car is understeering which gives snappy oversteer when the front eventually regrips. Always minimise the front end slip angles and you'll be fine...
I agree. What Ali mentions in this quote is what, in my humble opinion, causes the vast majority of accidents and moments in all cars (along with over-correction). Now, because of the Elise's unusual weight distribution (generally around 60 to 70% to the rear, depending on the model), understeer is more likely than with most cars due to a lightly loaded front (avoidable, but more likely), and increasing the steering lock is sadly how most people react to understeer (rather than removing the real cause, which is invariably a lack of sensitity to the car's balance when cornering, especially at turn-in and mid-corner). If you do happen to increase the lock too much during understeer, then when the car finally does grip at the front (often with a lift of the throttle) - round you go. Lift off oversteer, as this is known, used to really puzzle me, because I'd tried backing off mid corner at the limit in everything I've owned, driven and raced over the years and never got any oversteer out of any of them. Once I started instructing a few people and watching track days, it dawned on me that it only ever happened with too much steering lock. It took me too long to realise this, but I worked it out eventually!The second part of the story is that once the Elise does start oversteering, the rear-biased weight distribution gives you an awful lot of momentum in the rear end, which can cause it to get nasty much more quickly than with some other cars (a Caterham or BMW for example, where the engine's at the front). Having said that, a friend of mine who's rather handy at the oversteer game has taken his Elise S1 to drift days and seems to get on just fine! He just needs to react a bit quicker than in his other cars.
It's also worth mentioning the other cause of oversteer in cars, which is of course too much power. I don't think this is a problem at all in the Elise or any of its derivatives because of the excellent rear grip the car has due to both the weight distribution and Lotus' excellent suspension tuning. Of course it's possible to lose the back end under power in an Elise, but it's in a different league to a FE/RWD car such as a Caterham or BMW, where power induced oversteer is common and easy to generate. Obviously fiddling with the suspension and increasing horsepower change things a bit, but you've still inherently got a lot of rear grip.
One more thing: The OP mentions the Elise's 'great handling'. Whilst I'm a huge fan of the Elise (it remains the best road going daily useable sports car I've ever driven and I utterly love them), if you chat to most people in the know they don't credit the Elise with particularly great handling. The magic of the Elise is that it's utterly stupendous at everything else (e.g. suspension tuning and feedback) and the handling is still very good, so in summary it's still a fantastic car. The truth is that only small manufacturers tend to take the risk of building very focused niche cars like the Elise, and they can only afford fairly modest off the shelf engines and gearboxes etc, which lumbers the Elise with its weight distribution.
In summary though, if the OP (or anyone else) drives the Elise delicately, sympathetically and with some basic Physics in mind, it's a beautiful car to drive at any speed and oversteer won't be a problem at all. Like many owners on this forum and good friends of mine, I drove my Elise for 30,000 miles of road and track use in all weathers, whilst alert and also whilst tired and lethargic and never had a single moment. Have fun and drive fast, but be careful, and you'll be fine. The Elise is an awesome car - enjoy
Edited by RobM77 on Monday 7th January 14:20
RobM77 said:
What Ali mentions in this quote is what, in my humble opinion, causes the vast majority of accidents and moments in all cars
If we're just talking about loss of control type accidents, I agree. Jackie Stewart wrote about it in one of his books, and when I read it as a youngster I just didn't get it. Maybe he explained it badly, maybe I just didn't have the understanding of what was going on to put the pieces together. It eventually clicked. The car understeers, people wind more and more lock on and they just make it worse, until eventually they brake or lift and then it grips and they can't get the lock off fast enough. Better a small lift early on than winding on more lock, IMO.otolith said:
RobM77 said:
What Ali mentions in this quote is what, in my humble opinion, causes the vast majority of accidents and moments in all cars
If we're just talking about loss of control type accidents, I agree. Jackie Stewart wrote about it in one of his books, and when I read it as a youngster I just didn't get it. Maybe he explained it badly, maybe I just didn't have the understanding of what was going on to put the pieces together. It eventually clicked. The car understeers, people wind more and more lock on and they just make it worse, until eventually they brake or lift and then it grips and they can't get the lock off fast enough. Better a small lift early on than winding on more lock, IMO. Motor racing is a 'carving' sport (along with skiing, surfing etc), and the primary job of the driver is to balance the car in a corner. The primary tools for this job are the brake and accelerator. The steering is just used to guide the car.Once the front tyres have gone past the point of maximum grip, there's not much point putting more lock in, as it won't do anything other than wear the tyres out, slow you down and increase the chances of loss of control (as discussed here). As you rightly say, the thing to do at that point is to give the front end a bit more grip by easing off the throttle (after all, you'll need to start accelerating at corner exit, and that'll be heavily comprimised by understeer) and then think about changing your driving technique for corner entry for that car/corner the next time round. Like painting and sex, cornering is all about the preparation.
Edited by RobM77 on Monday 7th January 14:35
otolith said:
If we're just talking about loss of control type accidents, I agree. Jackie Stewart wrote about it in one of his books, and when I read it as a youngster I just didn't get it. Maybe he explained it badly, maybe I just didn't have the understanding of what was going on to put the pieces together. It eventually clicked. The car understeers, people wind more and more lock on and they just make it worse, until eventually they brake or lift and then it grips and they can't get the lock off fast enough. Better a small lift early on than winding on more lock, IMO.
Or don't lift and just unwind the lock slightly. RobM77 said:
if you chat to most people in the know they don't credit the Elise with particularly great handling. The magic of the Elise is that it's utterly stupendous at everything else (e.g. suspension tuning and feedback) and the handling is still very good, so in summary it's still a fantastic car.
not sure I can agree with this?(although in the bounds of having driven some shockingly bad ones as well as great ones, it's open to argument, although I don's believe it's an inherent issue)
I also don't agree with Sir Jackie to some extent, Elise (in factory trim) don't really have enough power to 'steer' in the throttle - they have way too much grip vs. power to do this (and I am not talking about deliberate show-boating sideways stuff).
As I said up-thread, the steering is there to tell you what's going on, the problem is that 99% of drivers cant feel/interpret this stuff
Scuffers said:
RobM77 said:
if you chat to most people in the know they don't credit the Elise with particularly great handling. The magic of the Elise is that it's utterly stupendous at everything else (e.g. suspension tuning and feedback) and the handling is still very good, so in summary it's still a fantastic car.
not sure I can agree with this?(although in the bounds of having driven some shockingly bad ones as well as great ones, it's open to argument, although I don's believe it's an inherent issue)
I also don't agree with Sir Jackie to some extent, Elise (in factory trim) don't really have enough power to 'steer' in the throttle - they have way too much grip vs. power to do this (and I am not talking about deliberate show-boating sideways stuff).
As I said up-thread, the steering is there to tell you what's going on, the problem is that 99% of drivers cant feel/interpret this stuff
Of course, yes, the Elise is sensitive to things like tyre pressures or geo being off, but most of the drivers of note that I've spoken to about the Elise do indeed say what I quoted. I agree with them.
'Steering on the throttle' is not always used to describe controlling power oversteer, as for example with a mk2 Escort rally car on the loose... (I dealt with this in my initial long post, where if you look I agree entirely with you about the grip/power being very modest with the Elise). We meant using the throttle to control the balance of the car in a corner.
otolith said:
I mean instead of adding too much lock in the first place.
Yeah, I got that bit. But once you've turned in too quickly, and the car is understeering, you can still unwind the lock slightly (if there's space) and to a degree it has the same effect as lifting off - the front wheels will gain traction again and give you the chance to make the corner - only without the potential risk of oversteer. Obviously the benefit of lifting off is that you'll be going slower if it does all go tits up!
Edited by pthelazyjourno on Monday 7th January 16:32
RobM77 said:
'Steering on the throttle' is not always used to describe controlling power oversteer, as for example with a mk2 Escort rally car on the loose... (I dealt with this in my initial long post, where if you look I agree entirely with you about the grip/power being very modest with the Elise). We meant using the throttle to control the balance of the car in a corner.
Absolutely, the observation applies as much to a front wheel drive car.otolith said:
RobM77 said:
'Steering on the throttle' is not always used to describe controlling power oversteer, as for example with a mk2 Escort rally car on the loose... (I dealt with this in my initial long post, where if you look I agree entirely with you about the grip/power being very modest with the Elise). We meant using the throttle to control the balance of the car in a corner.
Absolutely, the observation applies as much to a front wheel drive car. And of course at any speed as well. The throttle and steering should always work in harmony to create a balanced unstressed car that flows through the corner.I had an unexpected problem in the wet and the car wasn't even moving, left it parked outside the garage for a few days over christmas and it looks like it's caught mumps, big bubbles in the paintwork on the drivers door. You'd think a fibreglass car would be ok with a bit of rain, they make boats from the stuff after all.
RYH64E said:
I had an unexpected problem in the wet and the car wasn't even moving, left it parked outside the garage for a few days over christmas and it looks like it's caught mumps, big bubbles in the paintwork on the drivers door. You'd think a fibreglass car would be ok with a bit of rain, they make boats from the stuff after all.
Sorry to hear that; I had the same thing - plus ice and snow pulling bits of paintwork off one of the doors. Still, it drove beautifully!
Minismiles said:
This all makes me feel much better about leaving my Europa S under an outdoor cover whilst i'm out of the country! 
...until you find it's trapped moisture under the cover and caused bubbles... 
Seems to happen to a lot of these cars, in a lot of different conditions.
Mine has a couple of teeny pinhead sized ones around the fuel cap, but other than that it's fine, and that lives outdoors all year round.
RobM77 said:
Once the front tyres have gone past the point of maximum grip, there's not much point putting more lock in, as it won't do anything other than wear the tyres out, slow you down and increase the chances of loss of control (as discussed here).
I believe there's a danger I would react just like that, including the complimentary lift or even worse, a dab at the brakes. Problem IMO is that this feels like a "natural" (if that makes any sense) way of solving the problem, and on a FWD box you can get away with it (well, most of the time 
).If/when I ever get my backside in an Elise, getting some training is something I look forward to.
Question for those in the know: how much sense does the ABS on an Elise make? I assume stopping distance isn't really much better in comparison.
Very interesting thread really, thanks all!
Kolbenkopp said:
Question for those in the know: how much sense does the ABS on an Elise make? I assume stopping distance isn't really much better in comparison.
Very interesting thread really, thanks all!
Makes sense in an emergency situation on the road when you automatic reaction is to hit the brakes as hard as possible. Makes no sense on track and in some situations it's dangerous.Very interesting thread really, thanks all!
If you have ABS keep it on when on road and disconnect a sensor when on track.
Kolbenkopp said:
I believe there's a danger I would react just like that, including the complimentary lift or even worse, a dab at the brakes. Problem IMO is that this feels like a "natural" (if that makes any sense) way of solving the problem, and on a FWD box you can get away with it (well, most of the time ).
If/when I ever get my backside in an Elise, getting some training is something I look forward to.
Question for those in the know: how much sense does the ABS on an Elise make? I assume stopping distance isn't really much better in comparison.
Very interesting thread really, thanks all!
I'm probably in the minority but I'd love ABS. Although have never locked my wheels on the road, in particular circumstances it could be a life saver. ).If/when I ever get my backside in an Elise, getting some training is something I look forward to.
Question for those in the know: how much sense does the ABS on an Elise make? I assume stopping distance isn't really much better in comparison.
Very interesting thread really, thanks all!
I didn't notice it being particularly intrusive on the Lotus' I've driven with it, either.
Edit: as above, actually. Non ABS certainly not a problem on track, I just think it could make all the difference in an emergency on the road.
Gassing Station | Elise/Exige/Europa/340R | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff