at Are Elise that bad in the wet?

[otolith]

When I got the Elise, I couldn't understand how people were crashing them. It was only when I had enough confidence in the car to deliberately provoke it with weight transfer that I got a feel for how it could bite if driven in a particular way. I wouldn't drive any car like that unless I meant to poke it with a stick, but if that's your habit and you are used to cars which tolerate it, I can see how it could all get messy, quickly.

[rob999]

65% (or more) of the value of the car is normally deemed a write off.

[cre8toruk]

so fingers crossed I should be ok then....

[Flat6]

I've always been sensible in the wet and never had a problem in mine until I had to drive up the M6 to Phoenix Motorsport yesterday for a service, in conditions which I'd normally try to avoid using the Lotus in. The weather was horrific, torrential downpour, wipers couldn't keep up and a scary amount of standing water on the motorway.

I don't mind admitting I drove a good portion of the journey buttocks firmly clenched, even resorting to using whichever lane on the motorway didnt have the "shiny" type of Tarmac.. It was awful. I kept the speed down and even with a new set of Ad07s it was very floaty feeling and very unnerving.

However, after a full geo (the car had never had it before and was way out) it was like driving a different car home. Same conditions, same precautions taken by me (and I still believe these conditions are worse in an Elise than pretty much anything else with 4 wheels) but it was so much less nervous to drive. I was still far less happy on the motorway in these conditions though than in a "normal" car (including an old 911 I used to own, which ploughed on regardless)

Normal wet conditions I'd say be sensible, respect mid engine and rwd and you'll be fine. Biblical rain however, avoid if at all possible!

[HereBeMonsters]

Oh, for the wiper, get a PIAA silicone one, and cover the screen liberally and often with rainx. Above 40mph I never need to use the wiper.

[cre8toruk]

word is from ncrc who are dealing with my claim on behalf of premier insurance on behalf of the RAC (anyone still with me??!?).. .they're going to get hoopers vehicle inspectors to look at the damage and do a report....

[cre8toruk]

This might be useful for those of us who are a little less experienced than others....

http://www.drivingfast.net/car-control/oversteer.h...

[simpo555]

cre8toruk said:

Hi All,

well I picked up my beloved red 04 111s 16,500 miles on the 13th December, it was / is my 13th car...took my brother in law out for a spin up and down and the thing went sideways on me coming off the M3 Junction 7 roundabout... hit a crash barrier... result is a £7k insurance claim and a nervous wait while they decide if they want to pay for the repair or write it off... I'd had the car 3 days.

It had been raining quite heavily and I probably hit the accelerator way to hard going in to a bend just of the roundabout, I then got everything wrong, hit the brakes hard, the front end mounting the pavement then hitting a crash barrier before spinning round and the back taking a swipe too...

Absolutely gutted when I say the damage but I wasn't quite prepared for a 7k estimate from Specialised Paintwork...still it is an insurance quote.

Just goes to show imho, you have to be careful with these... Seriously considering signing up for car limits course... I've done various searches on line... steer to correct the skid I get, but is it feet off everything or feet on ?...

Just need to be careful in them.

8.

One can imagine the scene. New car. Laddish behaviour and showing off. Cars don't go sideways at road legal driving sppeds, no matter what the conditions (excepting extreme circumstances). Be thankful no one was injured. Public roads are not race tracks. I'm sorry about your 'accident ' but its largely 'self induced' Next time go out on the track. Now, pay up quietly and thank your lucky stars no children, adults or family were killed or injured by your behaviour. Stunned to see your only concern was the insurance bill.

[heebeegeetee]

simpo555 said:

Cars don't go sideways at road legal driving speeds, no matter what the conditions (excepting extreme circumstances).

I'm afraid that is complete rubbish. I for one have had three experiences of cars going completely sideways at 30-50 mph, out of control, in damp or dry conditions and on legal tyres.

[chris7676]

heebeegeetee said:

I for one have had three experiences of cars going completely sideways at 30-50 mph, out of control, in damp or dry conditions and on legal tyres.

Out of control - that's bad of you.
(Btw, how can you go completely sideways? That would mean 90deg straight line sideways to be anal;))

[heebeegeetee]

chris7676 said:

Out of control - that's bad of you.
(Btw, how can you go completely sideways? That would mean 90deg straight line sideways to be anal;))

I was the driver of one, passenger of one and witness to t'other. Two of them were completely sideways, 90degs and on the wrong side of the road, the other didn't do sideways but did slide out of control on to the wrong side of the road.

[400SE Dave]

heebeegeetee said:

simpo555 said:

Cars don't go sideways at road legal driving speeds, no matter what the conditions (excepting extreme circumstances).

I'm afraid that is complete rubbish. I for one have had three experiences of cars going completely sideways at 30-50 mph, out of control, in damp or dry conditions and on legal tyres.

It is possible in the 'wrong' conditions with a heavy right foot to do this in an Elise/Exige. I am sure there was a thread somewhere asking how many people had spun their Lotus' and it was a significant number and most were quite low speeed!

[cre8toruk]

heebeegeetee said:

chris7676 said:

Out of control - that's bad of you.
(Btw, how can you go completely sideways? That would mean 90deg straight line sideways to be anal;))

I was the driver of one, passenger of one and witness to t'other. Two of them were completely sideways, 90degs and on the wrong side of the road, the other didn't do sideways but did slide out of control on to the wrong side of the road.

I concur... as for laddish behaviour...it's a long time since I was a lad... I simply accelerated (I think) on a wet road that turned out to be a bend... at the time the rear wheels decided they wanted to steer, I was doing no more than 40 - 45 mph on a 60mph road... Chances are that what actually happened was I lifted off and got "lift off oversteer" which I've been reading about and then by my own admission panicked, the resulting sideways movement of the car and crash was almost certainly my fault but just goes to show that ANYTHING can happen to ANYONE even someone who's been driving crash free for the last 26 years.

My original post was in answer to the topic question, I'm my own worst critic, so I really don't need to be condescended to... I'm an experienced driver who simply got this badly wrong through inexperience with the car...the topic poster just needs to be careful.

[Herman Toothrot]

heebeegeetee said:

I'm afraid that is complete rubbish. I for one have had three experiences of cars going completely sideways at 30-50 mph, out of control, in damp or dry conditions and on legal tyres.

Er if you are rubbish at reading the conditions and don't know how to modulate a throttle, yes you are correct.

[saaby93]

Herman Toothrot said:

heebeegeetee said:

I'm afraid that is complete rubbish. I for one have had three experiences of cars going completely sideways at 30-50 mph, out of control, in damp or dry conditions and on legal tyres.

Er if you are rubbish at reading the conditions and don't know how to modulate a throttle, yes you are correct.

couple of golfs catching an elise in the wet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWB31RY352A
very tidy spin.

This one not so tidy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG3nkhOntEE

Edited by saaby93 on Friday 4th January 20:27

[Herman Toothrot]

saaby93 said:

couple of golfs catching an elise in the wet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWB31RY352A
very tidy spin.

And driving on track as fast as you can in the wet has what to do with managing to 'have it step sideways at 40mph without it being provoked'?

[saaby93]

Only in that it was wet

cre8toruk said:

Hi All,
well I picked up my beloved red 04 111s 16,500 miles on the 13th December, it was / is my 13th car...took my brother in law out for a spin up and down and the thing went sideways on me coming off the M3 Junction 7 roundabout... hit a crash barrier... result is a £7k insurance claim and a nervous wait while they decide if they want to pay for the repair or write it off... I'd had the car 3 days.

It had been raining quite heavily and I probably hit the accelerator way to hard going in to a bend just of the roundabout, I then got everything wrong, hit the brakes hard, the front end mounting the pavement then hitting a crash barrier before spinning round and the back taking a swipe too...

raises a couple of interesting issues

If youre driving in sports mode youre feeling and anticipating everything about the car and prepared for its feedback, you can correct it.
On the other hand if youre new and out on the road for an ordinary drive, how do you know a quick turning car is giving you some feedback that unless youre alert to it can take you off the road?

If youre in a mid rear engine car and you need the front end to brake and steer, how do you transfer load forward to get the grip when the front is already sliding?

[Paddy Field]

"Drive to Win" says of wet weather driving:

< the car will stop astonishingly well in the wet..>>

<<The lateral capacity of the tire is diminished more than the longitudinal capacity>>

<<when a tire breaks traction in the wet ... it will take longer to return to traction>>

IMO this explains why you have to be careful in the wet. You might think you have good traction, because the brakes bite hard. But then the back end steps out laterally relatively easily. And once it has broken away, it takes longer to return to traction, and you may spin.

Im really glad I bought an 'instruction manual' for my elise ;-)

[pthelazyjourno]

simpo555 said:

Cars don't go sideways at road legal driving sppeds, no matter what the conditions (excepting extreme circumstances).

That's a complete and utter load of bks, mine was more than a little sideways earlier today in 2nd gear at approx 20mph, without having to stomp on the accelerator or stepping off the clutch.

Tyres have done under 1000 miles, Yoko Advan Neovas, so not cheapo ditchfinders. Greasy conditions, not actually raining at the time, and not requiring specifically jerky behaviour to get the back to step out. Granted, it was done intentionally, but with smooth steering and relatively progressive throttle input it could easily have happened by accident to somebody new to RWD.

To make a blanket statement based on nothing but speed or "extreme circumstances" is just retarded, and I hope I don't ever meet you on the road if you have that much belief in your car's inability to lose grip at legal (rather than suitable) speeds.

If you haven't already, suggest you try a wet handling course at somewhere like Rockingham; evidently you'll be surprised at the low speeds required to go sideways (intentionally or unintentionally).

And just in case you throw something back at me regarding my own driving, I was actually playing around on a private road (that old chestnut..) with the ability to see a good 1000 yards in each direction and a 20mph speed limit. No, I'm not willing to post up the location, as although it may well have been perfectly safe, I doubt the golf club would approve...

Just such a ttty post - you haven't got a clue about the circumstances, so don't jump to conclusions. He may have been driving like a complete and utter dick, but then again it may actually have been an accident. Oddly enough, it is possible.

Edited by pthelazyjourno on Friday 4th January 22:28

[pthelazyjourno]

Herman Toothrot said:

Er if you are rubbish at reading the conditions and don't know how to modulate a throttle, yes you are correct.

Nowt to do with him reading the conditions, modulating the throttle or anything else. The comment he was replying to stated that "it wasn't possible". It is, and it's actually quite easy.

You may be a God when it comes to reading the conditions and modulating a throttle, but lots of people who drive aren't. Lots of those people drive FWD cars with little power, and don't need to manage either.

None of the cars I owned needed any sort of finesse to drive quickly, and a number of them had considerably more power. So it's easy to see how people going from one type of car to another can come a cropper.

Herman Toothrot said:

And driving on track as fast as you can in the wet has what to do with managing to 'have it step sideways at 40mph without it being provoked'?

I agree with you there, but the point is just how much provocation is required? Try to accelerate rapidly in an Elise in greasy conditions in 1st or 2nd and many will spin their wheels. If it's on a slight bend, or the alignment isn't spot on, that's only going to end one way.

I'm not talking about mashing the accelerator to the floor either - and that's something many people do in lots of other cars. If you've come from one of these cars, and don't really have any experience, it's easy to see why lots of people think they can drive in a similar manner - even if they've been told gems like *don't lift off*.

A *lot* of people have had moments in their Elises, and not all of them are driving like knob ends. And no, I'm not defending them because I've had an accident or spun my Elise on the road - I haven't (I'm no driving God so tend to drive like a nun when it's wet). I have done enough wet track days, Car Limits days and driver training stuff in different Elises/Exiges to realise how playful they can be if the conditions are greasy though.

Edited by pthelazyjourno on Friday 4th January 22:45