at Are Elise that bad in the wet?
Discussion
otolith said:
I really like the pedal feel of the unassisted brakes in the Rover engined cars, but ABS is absolutely worth having in a road car and you can't have both in an Elise. The Lotus ABS is pretty unobtrusive, anyway.
Well it is an interesting thing ABS but as I've researched it is a reactive system and walshy's dvd teaches threshold braking i.e. braking at the point just before the ABS kicks in and it does seem to stop the car better / shorter.I guess the trick is to not get in to that situation in the first place. Threshold braking is really effective if you can see the hazard before it's on you...but if a kiddy steps out in front of you, thinking has to be replaced with instinct. ABS I think leads people in to a false sense of security i.e. the ABS will save me / the kid that just ran out...
All that said it is a good invention, but shouldn't replace defensive, observant driving... leave the lunatic, hurtling round corners for the track imho.
8.
What you can do on a consistent surface when you are expecting it is not the same as what you can do on a patchy road surface when events take you by surprise. You also can't take each individual wheel up to locking, because you only have one pedal, so situations like left hand wheels on wet leaves and right hand wheels on grippy tarmac are suboptimal. For that reason, while I'm happy not to have abs, given the choice I'd rather have it.
pthelazyjourno said:
...until you find it's trapped moisture under the cover and caused bubbles... 
Seems to happen to a lot of these cars, in a lot of different conditions.
Mine has a couple of teeny pinhead sized ones around the fuel cap, but other than that it's fine, and that lives outdoors all year round.
It's been ok so far, and has been under some heavy snow before, lots of ventilation with it as it's loose at the bottom and has a couple of vents of the top too! Seems to happen to a lot of these cars, in a lot of different conditions.
Mine has a couple of teeny pinhead sized ones around the fuel cap, but other than that it's fine, and that lives outdoors all year round.
Fingers crossed for this time as it's been 11 weeks since i've seen her!
/sorry for the thread drift.
cre8toruk said:
Well it is an interesting thing ABS but as I've researched it is a reactive system and walshy's dvd teaches threshold braking i.e. braking at the point just before the ABS kicks in and it does seem to stop the car better / shorter.
I guess the trick is to not get in to that situation in the first place. Threshold braking is really effective if you can see the hazard before it's on you...but if a kiddy steps out in front of you, thinking has to be replaced with instinct. ABS I think leads people in to a false sense of security i.e. the ABS will save me / the kid that just ran out...
All that said it is a good invention, but shouldn't replace defensive, observant driving... leave the lunatic, hurtling round corners for the track imho.
8.
Walshy had stated that ABS on the road in a emergency is still a better option than threshold breaking, as the driver is still apt to lock up in the moment of panic.I guess the trick is to not get in to that situation in the first place. Threshold braking is really effective if you can see the hazard before it's on you...but if a kiddy steps out in front of you, thinking has to be replaced with instinct. ABS I think leads people in to a false sense of security i.e. the ABS will save me / the kid that just ran out...
All that said it is a good invention, but shouldn't replace defensive, observant driving... leave the lunatic, hurtling round corners for the track imho.
8.
fatwomble said:
Walshy had stated that ABS on the road in a emergency is still a better option than threshold breaking, as the driver is still apt to lock up in the moment of panic.
and has been said elsewhere ABS hasnt shown any significant benefit in accident rates since drivers with ABS drive closer to their limitshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation
However thats a general rather than elise specific issue
Some studies have shown risk compensation, however they were back from when ABS was a fancy new gadget and some cars even had an ABS badge on the boot. Now that abs is virtually standard, I don't think you can hold up the risk compensation card. The real world evidence that stability control systems reduce accident rates would also suggest that risk compensation is not a given.
otolith said:
Some studies have shown risk compensation, however they were back from when ABS was a fancy new gadget and some cars even had an ABS badge on the boot. Now that abs is virtually standard, I don't think you can hold up the risk compensation card.
I have 
Do we expect our vehicles to be able to stop more reliably than we used to?
otolith said:
The real world evidence that stability control systems reduce accident rates would also suggest that risk compensation is not a given.
That's a separate argument to unfold now that ESP is to become mandatory.saaby93 said:
nd has been said elsewhere ABS hasnt shown any significant benefit in accident rates since drivers with ABS drive closer to their limits
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation
However thats a general rather than elise specific issue
Yes, but your source also shows the reason why it doesn't demonstrate any benefit, and it's not because it's any less efficient at actually stopping the car. In a like-for-like scenario - *not* following too closely and driving too quickly, for example, just because you know you have ABS, I'd put my mortgage on it offering a massive benefit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation
However thats a general rather than elise specific issue
I think bringing complacency into the equation is an entirely different argument, as it's bugger all to do with how good ABS is at stopping a car.
"There are at least three studies which show that drivers' response to antilock brakes is to drive faster, follow closer and brake later, accounting for the failure of ABS to result in any measurable improvement in road safety. The studies were performed in Canada, Denmark and Germany.[1][2][3] A study led by Fred Mannering, a professor of civil engineering at Purdue University supports risk compensation, terming it the "offset hypothesis".[4]"
saaby93 said:
otolith said:
Some studies have shown risk compensation, however they were back from when ABS was a fancy new gadget and some cars even had an ABS badge on the boot. Now that abs is virtually standard, I don't think you can hold up the risk compensation card.
I have Do we expect our vehicles to be able to stop more reliably than we used to?
These things are a benefit for the sensible, safe driver who makes a mistake or is faced with the mistake of another. Dangerous, reckless drivers will be dangerous and reckless with or without these systems. Bluntly, the fact that some kid might drive like even more of a tosser because he has ABS doesn't invalidate it for my mother's car.
saaby93 said:
otolith said:
The real world evidence that stability control systems reduce accident rates would also suggest that risk compensation is not a given.
That's a separate argument to unfold now that ESP is to become mandatory.http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/speciali...
The US evidence for ABS is interesting. Useful reduction in non-fatal accidents. No net reduction in fatal accidents, but a shift from hitting other people to running off the road and hitting something solid. The authors find that hard to explain, seems to me that if you give people the ability to avoid the obstacle in the road they are likely to find the one off it. Which, to my mind, is an improvement. I'd rather a driver who has screwed up is able to avoid hitting me, even if he does instead hit a tree.
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811182.PDF
otolith said:
There is already evidence for stability control:
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/speciali...
The US evidence for ABS is interesting. Useful reduction in non-fatal accidents. No net reduction in fatal accidents, but a shift from hitting other people to running off the road and hitting something solid. The authors find that hard to explain, seems to me that if you give people the ability to avoid the obstacle in the road they are likely to find the one off it. Which, to my mind, is an improvement. I'd rather a driver who has screwed up is able to avoid hitting me, even if he does instead hit a tree.
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811182.PDF
err... mostly irrelevant crap in the context....http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/speciali...
The US evidence for ABS is interesting. Useful reduction in non-fatal accidents. No net reduction in fatal accidents, but a shift from hitting other people to running off the road and hitting something solid. The authors find that hard to explain, seems to me that if you give people the ability to avoid the obstacle in the road they are likely to find the one off it. Which, to my mind, is an improvement. I'd rather a driver who has screwed up is able to avoid hitting me, even if he does instead hit a tree.
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811182.PDF
as I am sure most already know, there's ABS and ABS, even within Lotus they have used different implementations, the ones used on the VX were truly shocking.
another miss-conception is that with ABS you have to have servo'ed brakes, no, you don't, only problem with not running a servo is the pedal 'kick' from ABS is not damped by the servo so you can really feel it.
Problem with the Elise install on the toyota engined cars is that the rear brakes do nothing (even less than in the Rover powered cars) and the only way to get them to actually do anything useful is to push though into ABS and let it 'manage' the pressures, however, this then means you have digital brakes - ie. on or off at the limits.
personally I hate it, why they could not get the static balance better to start with god only knows, then let the ABS be the last resort, not the first.
the actual ABS hardware used is actually pretty impressive, it's just the implementation that's crap, would love to have access to the tools to re-calibrate it.
On an Elise which is primarily a road car and not a track toy, ABS is nice to have. The only time I will brake hard enough on the road to activate it is if I or someone else have screwed up.
That link wasn't really about what I think Elise's should have though, it was in response to a conversation about what Qashqais and Insignias and Focuses and the rest of the white goods school run commuter hack world should have.
That link wasn't really about what I think Elise's should have though, it was in response to a conversation about what Qashqais and Insignias and Focuses and the rest of the white goods school run commuter hack world should have.
otolith said:
On an Elise which is primarily a road car and not a track toy, ABS is nice to have. The only time I will brake hard enough on the road to activate it is if I or someone else have screwed up.
I don't have a problem with the concept of ABS, even on a track car, my beef is that the Lotus implementation is crap.Scuffers said:
another miss-conception is that with ABS you have to have servo'ed brakes, no, you don't, only problem with not running a servo is the pedal 'kick' from ABS is not damped by the servo so you can really feel it.
Scuffers - is there a non servo ABS system in use on standard cars?Off topic, but what on earth are they putting in the grit/salt these days?!
When the roads have been gritted and actually look dry it coats the road with a layer of grease that's unbelievably slippery. Even my daily driver Audi A3 with 225 tyres and a mere 140hp was triggering the traction control in third gear the other morning, so I'm keeping well clear of the Elise until we've had a good downpour here to clean things up!
When the roads have been gritted and actually look dry it coats the road with a layer of grease that's unbelievably slippery. Even my daily driver Audi A3 with 225 tyres and a mere 140hp was triggering the traction control in third gear the other morning, so I'm keeping well clear of the Elise until we've had a good downpour here to clean things up!
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