at Are Elise that bad in the wet?

[chris7676]

Btw, you definitely do NOT want to stick to factory tyre pressures even for the dry, let alone for the wet. It's bad enough that the car is over-tyred.

[Mr E]

OP is talking about a 111S, so a little more shove than that.
I've had mine on a few degrees of oppo out of a wet roundabout in 3rd. I felt heroic, and then terrified. The guy behind probably didn't notice.

I also know of a standard S1 being written off in the wet on the way home after purchase.


(edit to add; in my case, in no way did the car try to bite me. I was using too much throttle on thin tyres and when it moved, it was completely predictable. Dialling in corrective lock felt like the most natural thing in the world - and I never thought I'd say that about an incident on the road. I suspect if I'd lifted rather than ride it out, things may have got messy)

[SergSC]

pthelazyjourno said:

At that speed it's still sounding more like a geo / tyres / diesel incident to me - majority of the time the S1 is still more likely to understeer (at least initially), and at 20mph lifting off will usually just bring it back in line.

Yes, you have to be more cautious than you do in a FWD hatchback, and I get that, but I think it's slightly off topic in terms of "is the Elise that bad in the wet". To which the answer, I genuinely believe, is no. It's no worse than any other RWD car.

/150bhp S1.

OK, there are some people with absolutely no idea about car dynamics, but the majority of people who buy RWD sporty cars do so because they've seen people drifting them, they're car fans, and they have a vague idea of what will happen when they stomp on the loud pedal.

I personally find them a lot more snappy in the dry, as you're going 50mph quicker when something lets go, so you really do need quick reactions / or be traveling on a track with lots of run off.

I had no idea what its geo or tire pressures were, it was a rented car. Unfortunately there was no diesel, I looked for it...
But the sport 1xx versions which I was specifically referring to (granted with too much hyperbole) definitely require more respect than regular S1.

"135R and Sport 190 were available with 135 bhp (101 kW; 137 PS) and 192 bhp (143 kW; 195 PS) respectively. These also came with associated handling upgrades such as Lotus Sport Suspension and wider wheels with Yokohama Advan A048 tyres"

[pthelazyjourno]

SergSC said:

I had no idea what its geo or tire pressures were, it was a rented car. Unfortunately there was no diesel, I looked for it...
But the sport 1xx versions which I was specifically referring to (granted with too much hyperbole) definitely require more respect than regular S1.

"135R and Sport 190 were available with 135 bhp (101 kW; 137 PS) and 192 bhp (143 kW; 195 PS) respectively. These also came with associated handling upgrades such as Lotus Sport Suspension and wider wheels with Yokohama Advan A048 tyres"

Are you talking S1s or S2s here? The models you've quoted look more like S2s.

S1 135 had normal AWI wheels as standard, don't believe they touched the suspension at all. A048s didn't come around until later on.

135R was an S2 and a different kettle of fish, and I haven't driven one so can't comment. Setup on that is supposed to be a lot more aggressive, however.

Edited by pthelazyjourno on Friday 2nd November 11:19

[un1eash]

The first car i bought turned out to have issues of the head gasket and air con variety so i never took delivery as the trader wanted to fix the issues then keep the car a few months to make sure everything was ok.

I will be however picking up a Magnetic Blue 111S tomorrow, its going to be a 140 mile trip home so i'm hoping it doesnt rain too much.

[Cotty]

un1eash said:

Magnetic Blue 111S

Whats is Magnetic Blue like? Pics?

[un1eash]

Its this car, ive had the wheels done in a dark grey chrome also.....

http://classifieds.pistonheads.com/classifieds/use...

Edited by un1eash on Friday 2nd November 14:09

[TIPPER]

SergSC said:

Picture me a noob driving an Elise (of the sport 135 variety) on the public road for the first time on a very wet day.
Very carefully took a roundabout at a slow 20mph, as I am coming off the round about I press the throttle a little too early (because I am used to the throttle response of a civic), combined with the scandinavian flick like weight transfer of exiting the roundabout causes the back to come round suddenly, I do everything wrong, insufficient opposite lock, lift off.... resulting in ending up on the grassy triangle.... luckily no damage, and a couple weeks later the wip roundabout was completed with a barrier added to the grassy triangle I landed on.
That was due entirely to ignorance, was not driving aggressively at all, not even close.

Its not rocket science that you are more likely to do so in S1 and even more so if an S1 of the sport variety.

A Sport 135 has less than 9% more power than a standard car - how does it suddenly become so difficult to keep on the road especially in view of the much, much higher power Elises around?

As mentioned elsewhere its to do with how the car is set up (poor/out of alignment geo can make the car more difficult to control) but much more importantly, as you admit, to do with the way you drive.

If you're used to driving underpowered fwd cars and using the throttle like an on/off switch and do the same in an Elise then you will come unstuck in the wet or dry.

I'd also suggest that even a noob ought to be able to control an Elise that kicks its arse out on a wet/greasy roundabout at 20mph - it all happens relatively slowly.

Its also worth mentioning that many Elises no longer have factory geo settings: changing camber is simple and toe not too difficult if you have perfect level ground. I wouldn't recommend playing around with the car on the road but its interesting changing settings between track days at the same track and noting the differences in behaviour.

Another point to note is that many cars are no longer at the factory ride height but I wonder how many of them have have had bump-steer reset?

Seem to be a lot of comments on here from people that have either no experience of the Elise, no understanding of the true differences between the different models or plain just can't drive. Sorry.

[TIPPER]

SergSC said:

I had no idea what its geo or tire pressures were, it was a rented car. Unfortunately there was no diesel, I looked for it...
But the sport 1xx versions which I was specifically referring to (granted with too much hyperbole) definitely require more respect than regular S1.

"135R and Sport 190 were available with 135 bhp (101 kW; 137 PS) and 192 bhp (143 kW; 195 PS) respectively. These also came with associated handling upgrades such as Lotus Sport Suspension and wider wheels with Yokohama Advan A048 tyres"

Do you actually know what car you rented?

In earlier posts you talk about 135 and 160 Sport Elises and now you're talking about the 135r and 190 Sport.

There was a 135S and a 135R. The R had different geo and suspension but most importantly, in the context of this thread, it was fitted as standard with Yokohama AO48LTS tyres. These are semi-slick track tyres suitable for track use only. In unskilled or inexperienced hands on any car they'll be difficult on a light-weight mid/rear engined car they are potentially lethal.

The characteristics you've been talking about appear to be more a function of the tyres in the conditions than any inherent 'difficulties' with 'Sports Elises' The difference in factory geo settings for the standard cars and a 135R are so small I doubt many experienced Elise drivers would notice the difference between the two set-ups given all other things being equal. I'd also wonder what the geo on your hire car was like!

The 160 was released from the factory with Lotus Sport suspension but road tyres.

To enter a discussion on here about Elise handling characteristics based on experiences in a hire (FFS!) car with people that have covered many thousands of road and track miles is perhaps a little unwise. You've merely demonstrated your ignorance of the differing models, the subtle differences between the cars and dismissed factors that those with experience know to have an important bearing on the behaviour of these cars.

[TIPPER]

un1eash said:

Its this car, ive had the wheels done in a dark grey chrome also.....

http://classifieds.pistonheads.com/classifieds/use...

Edited by un1eash on Friday 2nd November 14:09

Very nice - enjoy

Now, go and learn how the car behaves in extremis and how to control it in perfect safety by booking a day with Walshy ( http://www.carlimits.com/ ). Book a place on a 4 person day - you'll have a ball, learn a lot and end the day A) wanting to come back for more and B) with better car control.

[Cotty]

un1eash said:

Its this car, ive had the wheels done in a dark grey chrome also.....

http://classifieds.pistonheads.com/classifieds/use...

Very nice, I really like that. Sometime I wish mine was not so in your face colour wise.

[Mr E]

un1eash said:

Its this car, ive had the wheels done in a dark grey chrome also.....

Very nice indeed.

[SergSC]

pthelazyjourno said:

Are you talking S1s or S2s here? The models you've quoted look more like S2s.

S1 135 had normal AWI wheels as standard, don't believe they touched the suspension at all. A048s didn't come around until later on.

135R was an S2 and a different kettle of fish, and I haven't driven one so can't comment. Setup on that is supposed to be a lot more aggressive, however.

Edited by pthelazyjourno on Friday 2nd November 11:19

S1 original shape sport 135, stickers on sides, tires with very few grooves in them. Stiff skittish suspension over rough roads.

[SergSC]

pthelazyjourno said:

SergSC said:

I had no idea what its geo or tire pressures were, it was a rented car. Unfortunately there was no diesel, I looked for it...
But the sport 1xx versions which I was specifically referring to (granted with too much hyperbole) definitely require more respect than regular S1.

"135R and Sport 190 were available with 135 bhp (101 kW; 137 PS) and 192 bhp (143 kW; 195 PS) respectively. These also came with associated handling upgrades such as Lotus Sport Suspension and wider wheels with Yokohama Advan A048 tyres"

Are you talking S1s or S2s here? The models you've quoted look more like S2s.

S1 135 had normal AWI wheels as standard, don't believe they touched the suspension at all. A048s didn't come around until later on.

135R was an S2 and a different kettle of fish, and I haven't driven one so can't comment. Setup on that is supposed to be a lot more aggressive, however.

Edited by pthelazyjourno on Friday 2nd November 11:19

Sorry I copied the wrong section from Wikipedia. My personal experience was on a S1 S135, but I guess other sport variants require more caution than regular Elise.

"Besides the standard higher-performance variants listed below, Lotus also released some limited edition models such as Sport 135 (1998/9) with approx 145 bhp (108 kW; 147 PS), Sport 160 (2000) with 150–160 bhp (112–119 kW; 152–162 PS), and Sport 190 (190 bhp (142 kW; 193 PS)). These were more competent on track with sports suspension, wheels and tyres, seats according to model."

[Cotty]

I have started a new thread about attending a driving day if anyone is interested.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[SergSC]

TIPPER said:

SergSC said:

I had no idea what its geo or tire pressures were, it was a rented car. Unfortunately there was no diesel, I looked for it...
But the sport 1xx versions which I was specifically referring to (granted with too much hyperbole) definitely require more respect than regular S1.

"135R and Sport 190 were available with 135 bhp (101 kW; 137 PS) and 192 bhp (143 kW; 195 PS) respectively. These also came with associated handling upgrades such as Lotus Sport Suspension and wider wheels with Yokohama Advan A048 tyres"

Do you actually know what car you rented?

In earlier posts you talk about 135 and 160 Sport Elises and now you're talking about the 135r and 190 Sport.

There was a 135S and a 135R. The R had different geo and suspension but most importantly, in the context of this thread, it was fitted as standard with Yokohama AO48LTS tyres. These are semi-slick track tyres suitable for track use only. In unskilled or inexperienced hands on any car they'll be difficult on a light-weight mid/rear engined car they are potentially lethal.

The characteristics you've been talking about appear to be more a function of the tyres in the conditions than any inherent 'difficulties' with 'Sports Elises' The difference in factory geo settings for the standard cars and a 135R are so small I doubt many experienced Elise drivers would notice the difference between the two set-ups given all other things being equal. I'd also wonder what the geo on your hire car was like!

The 160 was released from the factory with Lotus Sport suspension but road tyres.

To enter a discussion on here about Elise handling characteristics based on experiences in a hire (FFS!) car with people that have covered many thousands of road and track miles is perhaps a little unwise. You've merely demonstrated your ignorance of the differing models, the subtle differences between the cars and dismissed factors that those with experience know to have an important bearing on the behaviour of these cars.

You seem to have completely misunderstood me. I am recounting my experience which happened to me when I was a totally ignorant Noob , admitted at the very start, in the hope that other ignorantsdon't repeat my mistakes. Despite being a noob at the time I was NOT driving aggressively at all, I was being careful , drivimg slower than i would be in a diesel civic, and more nervous than anything else. My mistake 5 years ago opened my eyes and inspired me to improve my skills. The incident can never happen again.

For some incomprehensible reason I seem to have touched a nerve by stating that sport versions are more likely to be spun by noobs than softer versions. You cannot argue with this, but yet persist with strawman arguments.

[pthelazyjourno]

SergSC said:

S1 original shape sport 135, stickers on sides, tires with very few grooves in them. Stiff skittish suspension over rough roads.

Fair enough.

Still sounds like the car though - the S135 had the same Konis as regular Elises as far as I'm aware - it was the S160 that had different (LSS?) Konis.

Whatever else you can level at a unmodded Elise, "stiff" isn't one of them - they roll like anything.

So either the car you had was modified, or knackered suspension?

I'm not being argumentative for the sake of it BTW (there's a change!), just curious. Your experience with an S135 doesn't tally with mine, or my experience with a standard Elise.

Put it on overly stiff suspension, and again everything changes. Mine was a bh when it had stiff suspension, and far more progressive when I changed them for new Bilstein dampers.

[fatwomble]

Cotty said:

I have started a new thread about attending a driving day if anyone is interested.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Well worth doing as Walshy will give a you a real idea of how and why a car behaves like it does in different situations.


The unexpected can happen, diesel on roundabouts is not a myth, the main thing is to be vigilant of the signs of something that may reduce grip and to know what to do should the back end step out. 100,000 miles in all weather conditions and I've only had 3 or 4 proper arse twitching moments. Training, concentration and a bit of respect for the car and it is perfectly fine in the wet.

[Si_man306]

I had an exige S2 and to be fair although I loved it, I essentially sold it because it just wasn't enjoyable driving it year round as my only car.

The real world has standing water, mud, gravel, leaves, diesel and everything in between and the car didn't give me the stability over those surfaces which I had expected from the hype and let's face it, most of our driving involves those hazards most of the year.

It was very unpleasant in the wet. I'm not saying you couldn't drive it, yes you could physically drive it without crashing but low visability, poor standing water traction, engine behind you added up to an unpleasant drive- I certainly felt it didn't inspire confidence. This is after around 8 years of trackdays and a number of handling/ tuition days inclding that by Andy Walsh.

Get yourself some good road tyres tyres (not R888 or Yoko A048) and some training (ANdy walsh is very good and demonstrates that you can't get used to the car's limits on the public road! And you'll be fine.

[mikem7709]

As above the car limits days with Andy are great, order the DVD from the website and have a look at the techniques. It may seem quite basic on the surface and I'm sure most enthusiastic drivers do some of it already but to perfect the techniques and get an understanding of what's happening to the car dynamically makes a massive difference.

To answer the OP's question, IMO compared to more road based cars - Yes they are. They're not dangerous so long as you respect the fact that the limits of grip are much lower than say something with an ///M badge on it when it's wet (and yes I've owned ///M cars running cup tyres).