S1 or S2 Elise as a Daily Driver
Discussion
Hoping to!
Car will be garaged yes.
MPG is something my wife takes note of to be honest but for something I'll be using regularly it makes sense to me too - it's the closest I'll get to being ecologically aware until all cars are replaced by Tesla Roadsters.
Bottom line that I think I've got to: I absolutely love the s1, am terrified the roof will be a nightmare, and can't see one for sale within several hundred miles of me that's looking to be THE car for me at the moment.
The flip is that my budget looks to be stretching to a k-series S2, but then sounds like I'd have to be prepared to do work on the head etc. too.
I continue to scour the classifieds...
Car will be garaged yes.
MPG is something my wife takes note of to be honest but for something I'll be using regularly it makes sense to me too - it's the closest I'll get to being ecologically aware until all cars are replaced by Tesla Roadsters.
Bottom line that I think I've got to: I absolutely love the s1, am terrified the roof will be a nightmare, and can't see one for sale within several hundred miles of me that's looking to be THE car for me at the moment.
The flip is that my budget looks to be stretching to a k-series S2, but then sounds like I'd have to be prepared to do work on the head etc. too.
I continue to scour the classifieds...
Anyone have thoughts on the S1 for sale from here?
www.allonwhite.co.uk/Used-Lotus-Cars-for-sale/
On phone and had to type that link so apologies if that's duff btw.
Its a colour I lile, clearly has the 111s engine fitted. Dealer seems to be a morgan dealer that also does lotus - enough to be approved re-upholsterers for them.
Literally the only fault I could pick with it at face value is that the offside (driver's side) rear 3/4 shot appears to show window glass sits nowhere near where it looks like it should do - could this just be fouling on hood seals, or does it seem like a problem to anyone?
Exciting times.
www.allonwhite.co.uk/Used-Lotus-Cars-for-sale/
On phone and had to type that link so apologies if that's duff btw.
Its a colour I lile, clearly has the 111s engine fitted. Dealer seems to be a morgan dealer that also does lotus - enough to be approved re-upholsterers for them.
Literally the only fault I could pick with it at face value is that the offside (driver's side) rear 3/4 shot appears to show window glass sits nowhere near where it looks like it should do - could this just be fouling on hood seals, or does it seem like a problem to anyone?
Exciting times.
Anyone have thoughts on the S1 for sale from here?
www.allonwhite.co.uk/Used-Lotus-Cars-for-sale/
On phone and had to type that link so apologies if that's duff btw.
Its a colour I lile, clearly has the 111s engine fitted. Dealer seems to be a morgan dealer that also does lotus - enough to be approved re-upholsterers for them.
Literally the only fault I could pick with it at face value is that the offside (driver's side) rear 3/4 shot appears to show window glass sits nowhere near where it looks like it should do - could this just be fouling on hood seals, or does it seem like a problem to anyone?
Exciting times.
www.allonwhite.co.uk/Used-Lotus-Cars-for-sale/
On phone and had to type that link so apologies if that's duff btw.
Its a colour I lile, clearly has the 111s engine fitted. Dealer seems to be a morgan dealer that also does lotus - enough to be approved re-upholsterers for them.
Literally the only fault I could pick with it at face value is that the offside (driver's side) rear 3/4 shot appears to show window glass sits nowhere near where it looks like it should do - could this just be fouling on hood seals, or does it seem like a problem to anyone?
Exciting times.
I like the Grey/Red roof combination , some more personal experiences...
The roof on my S1 took about 3-4 minutes to put on properly, the S2 about 1 - 1/2 minutes.
I've had 4 cars now with K series engines and never had a head gasket issue, if it's cuasing you sleepless nights that it might go, budget around £500 to have it done and fit a decent spec one with proper dowels.
S2 seats more comfy, S2 easier to get in and out of.
Incidentally there's nothing really bar the clams on an Elise that isn't home maintenance friendly,(as long as you are handy on the tools)running costs are really not massive either..
For what you want to do personally I think an S2 maybe the better option...hope this all helps.
The roof on my S1 took about 3-4 minutes to put on properly, the S2 about 1 - 1/2 minutes.
I've had 4 cars now with K series engines and never had a head gasket issue, if it's cuasing you sleepless nights that it might go, budget around £500 to have it done and fit a decent spec one with proper dowels.
S2 seats more comfy, S2 easier to get in and out of.
Incidentally there's nothing really bar the clams on an Elise that isn't home maintenance friendly,(as long as you are handy on the tools)running costs are really not massive either..
For what you want to do personally I think an S2 maybe the better option...hope this all helps.
bpmd said:
Hoping to!
Car will be garaged yes.
MPG is something my wife takes note of to be honest but for something I'll be using regularly it makes sense to me too - it's the closest I'll get to being ecologically aware until all cars are replaced by Tesla Roadsters.
Bottom line that I think I've got to: I absolutely love the s1, am terrified the roof will be a nightmare, and can't see one for sale within several hundred miles of me that's looking to be THE car for me at the moment.
The flip is that my budget looks to be stretching to a k-series S2, but then sounds like I'd have to be prepared to do work on the head etc. too.
I continue to scour the classifieds...
Not sure what you mean re work on the head of the S2? You know the k-series was used throughout on the S1 and on the earlier S2 standard and 111S models don't you? Car will be garaged yes.
MPG is something my wife takes note of to be honest but for something I'll be using regularly it makes sense to me too - it's the closest I'll get to being ecologically aware until all cars are replaced by Tesla Roadsters.
Bottom line that I think I've got to: I absolutely love the s1, am terrified the roof will be a nightmare, and can't see one for sale within several hundred miles of me that's looking to be THE car for me at the moment.
The flip is that my budget looks to be stretching to a k-series S2, but then sounds like I'd have to be prepared to do work on the head etc. too.
I continue to scour the classifieds...
Head gasket failure is common across the k series in the rear of any sports car, but easily and cheaply resolved. Inconvenience aside, dont let it put you off a car with that engine. The Toyota engine has it's own issues and, whilst they are less frequent, the resolution can be more ££s than fixing a k. Still peanuts compared to many sports cars of similar performance mind.
The S1 roof is a pain. The S2 roof is marginally better in terms of speed to erect (fnar), but lots better in terms of waterproofing IMO. The S2 is marginally more comfortable and feels less toy-like.
At the end of the day, there isn't much between the cars. As a daily, it depends how far along the compromise graph you're prepared to go. For me, I couldn't be arsed to use either on a day to day basis. All well and good in the summer, but across winter I'd soon get fooked off. But many do. And love it. If I were to do it, an S2 is marginally more car-like and the driving experience is still head and shoulders above 99% of other cars I wouldn't be concerned about losing that percentage of a percent less-direct than the S1.
Nothing to add other than don't dilly dally to long. I've seen many of these threads that dry up and get no where.
For what its worth I use my s2 Toyota as a daily, and no other brand comes remotely close to the ownership experience. I used to run a s2 k series too. Both cars have their niggles, and pros and cons, but both much of a muchness in terms of reliability and ownership experience.
You might also want to consider taking out the AA P&L warranty, well worth it in my opinion, and has paid for itself many times over.
For what its worth I use my s2 Toyota as a daily, and no other brand comes remotely close to the ownership experience. I used to run a s2 k series too. Both cars have their niggles, and pros and cons, but both much of a muchness in terms of reliability and ownership experience.
You might also want to consider taking out the AA P&L warranty, well worth it in my opinion, and has paid for itself many times over.
I use my S1 as a daily driver, and with a hard top it's completely waterproof and gives me no issues at all that are worse than my old stripped out MX5 with bucket seats. Even getting in and out isn't any more annoying. It's lovely, and it makes me happy every trip.
If I had more money I'd be just as happy with a S2 K or S2 Toyota. I've not driven an Elise varient I wouldn't be happy driving every day, although the three months with a leaky aftermarket roof on my S1 was a low point.
If I had more money I'd be just as happy with a S2 K or S2 Toyota. I've not driven an Elise varient I wouldn't be happy driving every day, although the three months with a leaky aftermarket roof on my S1 was a low point.
kambites said:
One other point - you don't say whether you have a garage, but if you're planning to keep the car outside in the winter I would strongly recommend finding a car with air conditioning. The cabin always ends up getting a bit damp and if you have no garage you'll have no way to dehumidify it in the winter unless you have air conditioning. Once it gets damp, the water evaporates and condenses on the inside of the windscreen then freezes, which means you have to wait for the engine to warm up and defrost it every time you want to drive anywhere.
I keep my S1 outside and use it all year - a caravan de-humidifier keeps it condensation free in winter. I leave it on the dash over night, and dry it out in the oven every couple of months. AC is a good option to have though.Captain Muppet said:
I use my S1 as a daily driver, and with a hard top it's completely waterproof and gives me no issues at all that are worse than my old stripped out MX5 with bucket seats. Even getting in and out isn't any more annoying. It's lovely, and it makes me happy every trip.
The flipside of the awkward entry is that the driving position - flat on the floor with high sills - makes the experience feel all the more special. You would normally have to pay much more money for a car which abuses you so much while getting in. And actually, once you have the knack, it's not hard at all. Occasional passengers can be amusing though. Shnozz said:
bpmd said:
Hoping to!
Car will be garaged yes.
MPG is something my wife takes note of to be honest but for something I'll be using regularly it makes sense to me too - it's the closest I'll get to being ecologically aware until all cars are replaced by Tesla Roadsters.
Bottom line that I think I've got to: I absolutely love the s1, am terrified the roof will be a nightmare, and can't see one for sale within several hundred miles of me that's looking to be THE car for me at the moment.
The flip is that my budget looks to be stretching to a k-series S2, but then sounds like I'd have to be prepared to do work on the head etc. too.
I continue to scour the classifieds...
Not sure what you mean re work on the head of the S2? You know the k-series was used throughout on the S1 and on the earlier S2 standard and 111S models don't you? Car will be garaged yes.
MPG is something my wife takes note of to be honest but for something I'll be using regularly it makes sense to me too - it's the closest I'll get to being ecologically aware until all cars are replaced by Tesla Roadsters.
Bottom line that I think I've got to: I absolutely love the s1, am terrified the roof will be a nightmare, and can't see one for sale within several hundred miles of me that's looking to be THE car for me at the moment.
The flip is that my budget looks to be stretching to a k-series S2, but then sounds like I'd have to be prepared to do work on the head etc. too.
I continue to scour the classifieds...
Head gasket failure is common across the k series in the rear of any sports car, but easily and cheaply resolved. Inconvenience aside, dont let it put you off a car with that engine. The Toyota engine has it's own issues and, whilst they are less frequent, the resolution can be more ££s than fixing a k. Still peanuts compared to many sports cars of similar performance mind.
The S1 roof is a pain. The S2 roof is marginally better in terms of speed to erect (fnar), but lots better in terms of waterproofing IMO. The S2 is marginally more comfortable and feels less toy-like.
At the end of the day, there isn't much between the cars. As a daily, it depends how far along the compromise graph you're prepared to go. For me, I couldn't be arsed to use either on a day to day basis. All well and good in the summer, but across winter I'd soon get fooked off. But many do. And love it. If I were to do it, an S2 is marginally more car-like and the driving experience is still head and shoulders above 99% of other cars I wouldn't be concerned about losing that percentage of a percent less-direct than the S1.
The 111S felt quite a bit lighter on its feet to me than the 111R (the engine is a long way back, so you're going to notice engine weight differences quite a bit), but the main thing was the lack of servo assistance on the brakes making heel and toe easy and brake modulation easy, whereas the 111R was awful for that until the DBW throttle came out later on giving a lower throttle pedal (note though that ABS makes the Toyota model cheaper to insure - the difference was £200 for me as a 28 year old). Finally, the on paper performance stats look similar, but the 111S has a much fatter torque curve which subjectively to me felt far more suited to road driving (which isn't really about acceleration, it's about coming in and out of corners and relatively small speed increases for the straights - so for me its flexibility I look for, not outright punch). As the Toyota models progressed they got better and better and I have to say the best Elise I've driven is probably the late model SC, but the S2 111S comes a very close second for me. I also rate those two cars as the best road cars I've ever driven from a driving pleasure point of view.
One final thing is that if like me you're obsessed with ride and handling, you'll probably want new dampers and perhaps bushes too at this sort of age of car to get the true Lotus experience. Also ensure the car is running exactly the right geo and tyre pressures. All those things make a huge difference to how an Elise drives - I've driven some absolute dogs where all that was wrong was the geo.
The thing that makes the Rover cars lovely for heel and toe is that the pedal is very firm and doesn't move much. You can't get that with the Toyota cars, it's a function of the unassisted braking. What makes the early 111R difficult for H&T, besides having normal brakes, is that the pedal heights are wrong. That can be easily adjusted, however, which makes them very much better.
I was told that by a Lotus dealer when I was looking. They got me to sit in a customer's car that they'd adjusted and it was better, but the infamous 111R pedal sink was still very evident, and I certainly couldn't have heel and toed that easily. I H&T quite a lot and hate having my foot trapped between acc and clutch, so the 111S with it's unservoed brakes was the natural choice for me. I also much prefer the feel of non-servoed brakes - it's one of the few things I'd change about my 2-Eleven if I could; it just feels totally out of character with the car.
bpmd said:
Anyone have thoughts on the S1 for sale from here?
www.allonwhite.co.uk/Used-Lotus-Cars-for-sale/
On phone and had to type that link so apologies if that's duff btw.
Its a colour I lile, clearly has the 111s engine fitted. Dealer seems to be a morgan dealer that also does lotus - enough to be approved re-upholsterers for them.
Literally the only fault I could pick with it at face value is that the offside (driver's side) rear 3/4 shot appears to show window glass sits nowhere near where it looks like it should do - could this just be fouling on hood seals, or does it seem like a problem to anyone?
Exciting times.
Is it just me or is that engine missing the VVC solenoid. www.allonwhite.co.uk/Used-Lotus-Cars-for-sale/
On phone and had to type that link so apologies if that's duff btw.
Its a colour I lile, clearly has the 111s engine fitted. Dealer seems to be a morgan dealer that also does lotus - enough to be approved re-upholsterers for them.
Literally the only fault I could pick with it at face value is that the offside (driver's side) rear 3/4 shot appears to show window glass sits nowhere near where it looks like it should do - could this just be fouling on hood seals, or does it seem like a problem to anyone?
Exciting times.
I don't know enough to tell unfortunately. possibly another car to rule out?
Have a friend who lives locally to that so was hoping to borrow his eyes and do AA check if that seemed positive.
Basically i do a good line in buying cars which immediately break, and have no use for a 10k paperweight.
For context, I think my heart is in the S1, but my head is saying (as is everyone else) that the s2 is a better proposition.
This s1 once the trim was tidied up seems like exactly what I was looking for. Garage is a good dealer per my local info - so looking to get in touch with them and see what they say about the possible engine swap.
Have a friend who lives locally to that so was hoping to borrow his eyes and do AA check if that seemed positive.
Basically i do a good line in buying cars which immediately break, and have no use for a 10k paperweight.
For context, I think my heart is in the S1, but my head is saying (as is everyone else) that the s2 is a better proposition.
This s1 once the trim was tidied up seems like exactly what I was looking for. Garage is a good dealer per my local info - so looking to get in touch with them and see what they say about the possible engine swap.
There's a few obvious cues for 111S vs normal K-series vs Toyota engined S2s.
1) The 111S and Toyota have three-piece diffusers (the centre section lower than the two side sections); the other K-series have a single-piece one.
2) The K-series engined cars have the exhaust exiting above the diffuser, either side of the number plate; the Toyota's exits through the diffuser.
3) The Toyota engined car shave a "shallower" bridge across the front clam between the access panels to clear the higher set radiator.
4) The 111S and Toyota cars have 8-spoke wheels (special editions aside), the normal K-series has 6-spoke.
5) The intake manifold is different, as you already know, being plastic on the normal K-series and metal on the 111S.
6) The standard K-series is usually missing the little round light units in the front grill (I think they're standard on the 111S and 111R, but not sure).
Unfortunately pretty much any of these things can be swapped over. I'm not so sure about S1s.
1) The 111S and Toyota have three-piece diffusers (the centre section lower than the two side sections); the other K-series have a single-piece one.
2) The K-series engined cars have the exhaust exiting above the diffuser, either side of the number plate; the Toyota's exits through the diffuser.
3) The Toyota engined car shave a "shallower" bridge across the front clam between the access panels to clear the higher set radiator.
4) The 111S and Toyota cars have 8-spoke wheels (special editions aside), the normal K-series has 6-spoke.
5) The intake manifold is different, as you already know, being plastic on the normal K-series and metal on the 111S.
6) The standard K-series is usually missing the little round light units in the front grill (I think they're standard on the 111S and 111R, but not sure).
Unfortunately pretty much any of these things can be swapped over. I'm not so sure about S1s.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 25th June 08:29
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