Elise vs Caterham?
Discussion
Had my 111s for over a year now, still love it and it's a keeper. BUT ..... Found myself in Caterham South the other day and I'm starting to take an unhealthy interest in 7s, particularly the idea of self-building a 420 R. Obviously I need to drive one and will hire one a bit later in the year. In the meantime I'd be really interested to hear from any Elise fans who have subsequently tried a Caterham - how do they compare in terms of driving dynamics and just the sheer sensation of the experience. Like I say I'm keeping the Lotus but would a 7 be a worthwhile stable mate? (Hopefully not from a budget perspective).
I've owned the following:
Lotus Elise S2 111S - about 8 years, with 3 years as a daily driver
Caterham 7 Roadsport VVC - about 5 years
Caterham Roadsport A race car - 1 year
Lotus 2-Eleven - 3 years to date and still own it
In addition to the above I've driven a few different Caterhams and most of the Lotus range (Esprit, Elise, Exige 4cyl & V6 and 2-Eleven).
I'd say the biggest difference is the physical size and weight. Caterhams look bigger than they are due to their shape and similarity to bigger cars like Morgans, old MGs etc, but they're actually tiny - a foot shorter than an MG Metro in fact, as I discovered when I parked my 7 in the shed I built to store my Metro race car. Driving an Elise feels like driving a small mid engined car (like an MR2 for example), but a 7 really is a breed apart from other cars - you sort of 'wear' the car and the reactions of the car are just so immediate. Much like a go kart, most people can jump in a 7 and start sliding it around without a care in the world, whereas an Elise doesn't give that same feeling of intimacy and complete ease of control. The other difference directly related to the weight is the performance - most Elises are around 200-250 bhp/tonne, but that's pretty slow for a Caterham, with the 'R' models starting at 300 odd, and you can really feel it. Even an R300 feels utterly ballistic compared to a 111R or even SC Elise.
Now we've dealt with that obvious difference in size and weight, there are some subtle differences worth mentioning:
Firstly, the feedback in an Elise is in balanced stereo - you sit in the middle of the car and feel front and rear axles equally. In a Caterham you sit almost on the rear axle, so feel every tiny movement or slip angles building at the rear, but the front is rather distant.
Next up it's worth mentioning the handling differences. A Caterham is FE/RWD, so feels planted at the front and happy to slide around all day - they're very playful at the limit and extremely forgiving. The rudamentary De Dion rear axle adds to this by not being as planted as an Elise's fully independent setup. An Elise, in contrast, is a very sticky and accurate thing to drive fast and they punish sideways with loss of forward speed. An Elise's rearward weight bias also means that whilst a certain angle of oversteer (say up to 30-40 degrees at the steering wheel of opposite lock to balance it) feels fine, much beyond that and things get nasty very quickly because you've got about 60-70% of the weight slung out over the rear wheels. The cornering grip of an Elise is noticeably higher due to a stiffer chassis and better tuned suspension. If you look into laptimes, you'll find that a much high power to weight ratio of Caterham is needed than you'd think to keep up with an Elise. The feedback in an Elise is glorious though, so this goes a long way to mitigating the chassis' tendency to punish mistakes, because you feel them coming so far in advance. I'd still take a Caterham though if I was asked to drive balls out in the wet. Another thing is aerodynamics - above 90mph in a Caterham and the front lifts noticeably, which is quite weird through fast sweeping bends like the Craner Curves or Maggots and Beckets. Elise S1s have rear lift at speed (quite famous that!), but S2s actually produce mild downforce at speed, moreso at the rear than the front, so they're very planted through high speed corners.
Finally on the subject of dynamics before I turn to practicalities, it's worth mentioning that Caterham suffer a lot more from adding a passenger, firstly because they're a higher percentage of the car's total weight, but also because it's yet more weight on the rear axle. Most 7s go from playful and tip-toe like with just a driver on board to understeerey and dull with a passenger. I'm sure this has lost Caterham quite a few sales on accompanied test drives! Elises don't suffer in handling that much with a passenger, and passengers are a lower percentage of the car's weight so performance suffers less too.
In terms of practicality, a Caterham's roof takes about ten minutes to put up, they sometimes leak a bit and the boot's surprisingly usable but still quite small. An Elise's boot is pretty big and the roof, if you go for a short tail S2, can be put up in under a minute and most don't leak at all, plus you can get a brilliant hard top. Elises are also quieter, especially the later S2 cars, and the stereo is perfectly audible (just not for subtle music though) - Caterhams don't have stereos and I doubt you'd hear it if you had one. ABS is also standard on the Toyota engined Elises, which is useful for driving in the wet when you're tired after a long day on track etc.
Safety in an Elise is superb, especially side impacts. I've heard an awful lot of stories of drivers who've got out of accidents unscathed in Elises that apparently would have seriously injured people even in safe modern 'normal' cars. Caterhams in contrast have almost no side impact as standard and are much more dangerous, especially in a rear end impact because you're only about 18 inches from the back of the car.
In summary, Caterhams offer fast, lightweight traditional thrills; whereas Elises offer highly refined ride and handling and more cerebral driving pleasures. If I won the lottery I'd have one of each
Sorry for the lengthy brain dump - feel free to ask if you have any questions!
Lotus Elise S2 111S - about 8 years, with 3 years as a daily driver
Caterham 7 Roadsport VVC - about 5 years
Caterham Roadsport A race car - 1 year
Lotus 2-Eleven - 3 years to date and still own it
In addition to the above I've driven a few different Caterhams and most of the Lotus range (Esprit, Elise, Exige 4cyl & V6 and 2-Eleven).
I'd say the biggest difference is the physical size and weight. Caterhams look bigger than they are due to their shape and similarity to bigger cars like Morgans, old MGs etc, but they're actually tiny - a foot shorter than an MG Metro in fact, as I discovered when I parked my 7 in the shed I built to store my Metro race car. Driving an Elise feels like driving a small mid engined car (like an MR2 for example), but a 7 really is a breed apart from other cars - you sort of 'wear' the car and the reactions of the car are just so immediate. Much like a go kart, most people can jump in a 7 and start sliding it around without a care in the world, whereas an Elise doesn't give that same feeling of intimacy and complete ease of control. The other difference directly related to the weight is the performance - most Elises are around 200-250 bhp/tonne, but that's pretty slow for a Caterham, with the 'R' models starting at 300 odd, and you can really feel it. Even an R300 feels utterly ballistic compared to a 111R or even SC Elise.
Now we've dealt with that obvious difference in size and weight, there are some subtle differences worth mentioning:
Firstly, the feedback in an Elise is in balanced stereo - you sit in the middle of the car and feel front and rear axles equally. In a Caterham you sit almost on the rear axle, so feel every tiny movement or slip angles building at the rear, but the front is rather distant.
Next up it's worth mentioning the handling differences. A Caterham is FE/RWD, so feels planted at the front and happy to slide around all day - they're very playful at the limit and extremely forgiving. The rudamentary De Dion rear axle adds to this by not being as planted as an Elise's fully independent setup. An Elise, in contrast, is a very sticky and accurate thing to drive fast and they punish sideways with loss of forward speed. An Elise's rearward weight bias also means that whilst a certain angle of oversteer (say up to 30-40 degrees at the steering wheel of opposite lock to balance it) feels fine, much beyond that and things get nasty very quickly because you've got about 60-70% of the weight slung out over the rear wheels. The cornering grip of an Elise is noticeably higher due to a stiffer chassis and better tuned suspension. If you look into laptimes, you'll find that a much high power to weight ratio of Caterham is needed than you'd think to keep up with an Elise. The feedback in an Elise is glorious though, so this goes a long way to mitigating the chassis' tendency to punish mistakes, because you feel them coming so far in advance. I'd still take a Caterham though if I was asked to drive balls out in the wet. Another thing is aerodynamics - above 90mph in a Caterham and the front lifts noticeably, which is quite weird through fast sweeping bends like the Craner Curves or Maggots and Beckets. Elise S1s have rear lift at speed (quite famous that!), but S2s actually produce mild downforce at speed, moreso at the rear than the front, so they're very planted through high speed corners.
Finally on the subject of dynamics before I turn to practicalities, it's worth mentioning that Caterham suffer a lot more from adding a passenger, firstly because they're a higher percentage of the car's total weight, but also because it's yet more weight on the rear axle. Most 7s go from playful and tip-toe like with just a driver on board to understeerey and dull with a passenger. I'm sure this has lost Caterham quite a few sales on accompanied test drives! Elises don't suffer in handling that much with a passenger, and passengers are a lower percentage of the car's weight so performance suffers less too.
In terms of practicality, a Caterham's roof takes about ten minutes to put up, they sometimes leak a bit and the boot's surprisingly usable but still quite small. An Elise's boot is pretty big and the roof, if you go for a short tail S2, can be put up in under a minute and most don't leak at all, plus you can get a brilliant hard top. Elises are also quieter, especially the later S2 cars, and the stereo is perfectly audible (just not for subtle music though) - Caterhams don't have stereos and I doubt you'd hear it if you had one. ABS is also standard on the Toyota engined Elises, which is useful for driving in the wet when you're tired after a long day on track etc.
Safety in an Elise is superb, especially side impacts. I've heard an awful lot of stories of drivers who've got out of accidents unscathed in Elises that apparently would have seriously injured people even in safe modern 'normal' cars. Caterhams in contrast have almost no side impact as standard and are much more dangerous, especially in a rear end impact because you're only about 18 inches from the back of the car.
In summary, Caterhams offer fast, lightweight traditional thrills; whereas Elises offer highly refined ride and handling and more cerebral driving pleasures. If I won the lottery I'd have one of each
Sorry for the lengthy brain dump - feel free to ask if you have any questions!
Edited by RobM77 on Friday 24th April 10:27
RobM77 said:
Lotus 2-Eleven - 3 years to date and still own it
Dare I move the thread slightly off topic and ask Rob, where does the 2-Eleven sit? Somewhere in between? Is it a totally different proposition?To state the obvious, there's nothing like a good test drive to get the idea, so well done OP for organising the thing. I've had a short test drive of a Supersport R and I loved how raw and effortless it felt. There is nothing like it, classic car vibe with up to date components. It was the most exhilarating thing I've ever seat in.
I'd still get an Elise first though, as the 7 doesn't feel like it'll be practical enough for longer trips. Definitely want both.
K2iss said:
Dare I move the thread slightly off topic and ask Rob, where does the 2-Eleven sit? Somewhere in between? Is it a totally different proposition?
The 2-Eleven feels surprisingly unlike an Elise or Exige and nothing at all like a Caterham, so I guess it's best thought of as a car in its own right.Thanks a lot for the replies. Brilliant info Rob, very helpful. I'd never seriously considered a Caterham before but sitting in a few, talking to the clearly enthusiastic sales guy and thinking about power to weight has made me more interested. Also, having enjoyed the 111s as much or more than more expensive and much quicker alternatives has got me into a 'less is more' mindset. I'd be looking for a car for the occasional track day (would rather not abuse the Elise as it's a long-termer) and road use when in the mood for something a bit different. Probably couldn't justify sinking 30k into something so focussed so will do a test drive and, if I'm hooked, would consider something at the entry level of the Caterham market. Think it might be a bucket list thing along with one or 2 other cars.
I owned a Caterham R400 for several years and moved over to an Elise SC in 2010.
Caterhams are fantastic, ballistic cars and great fun on the road and track. My Elise is probably a better car most of the time but doesn't quite reach the highs or the lows of the Caterham. On a B road beat the Elise will be as quick, on a wet/damp track day the Elise will be quicker. When the conditions are just right the Caterham would win hands down.
If you haven't owned a Caterham you are missing out on something special, same thing could be said about an Elise/Exige.......
Caterhams are fantastic, ballistic cars and great fun on the road and track. My Elise is probably a better car most of the time but doesn't quite reach the highs or the lows of the Caterham. On a B road beat the Elise will be as quick, on a wet/damp track day the Elise will be quicker. When the conditions are just right the Caterham would win hands down.
If you haven't owned a Caterham you are missing out on something special, same thing could be said about an Elise/Exige.......
stuttgart737 said:
Thanks a lot for the replies. Brilliant info Rob, very helpful. I'd never seriously considered a Caterham before but sitting in a few, talking to the clearly enthusiastic sales guy and thinking about power to weight has made me more interested. Also, having enjoyed the 111s as much or more than more expensive and much quicker alternatives has got me into a 'less is more' mindset. I'd be looking for a car for the occasional track day (would rather not abuse the Elise as it's a long-termer) and road use when in the mood for something a bit different. Probably couldn't justify sinking 30k into something so focussed so will do a test drive and, if I'm hooked, would consider something at the entry level of the Caterham market. Think it might be a bucket list thing along with one or 2 other cars.
No problem. Don't forget that Caterhams are very upgradable. For example if you bought a k series 1.8 roadsport (~£14k at the moment), you could fit something similar to Caterham's Supersport R kit to get the engine to get it close to k series R300 spec, and then fit different springs and dampers, widetrack front suspension etc. The k series may have head gasket worries, but it's extremely light and sounds fantastic when tuned. Much like Minis or to some extent MX5s, Caterhams have been around for so long and have such an enthusiastic and mechanically minded following, that upgrades and spares are plentiful. Buying a cheaper car and making it your own is an extremely popular option that most of my friends in the L7C have pursued.I sold my Westfield to fund an Exige S. I had the westfield for about 10 years and moved to an Exige as it was 'more like a car' and would get more use. The Exige is excellent but the advantage it has over a 7 type vehicle is that.....and this may seem as a weird thing to say is that in comparision it's almost 'practical'. It has doors, windows, a roof, and if driven in the wet, you stay dry. To me at the time, this was quite desirable so made the move.
If these qualities aren't taken in to consideration, which car did I like the most?
Undoubtedly, it's the Westfield. They are so much fun to drive and just the pure rawness of the car holds a lot of appeal for me. The noise, the smell, everything about it made it feel special. An amazingly exhillarating drive and to me, nothing compares to it.
If I lived in a country with warmer climate and predicatable sunshine every day, I'd choose a 7 every time.
For me, the difference between a 7 and an Elise is that I found I could only really 'pop out' in the 7 where as you can actually take an Elise somewhere. If you're happy to use the car as an occasional vehical for just fun then there's no better car than a 7.
Funilly enough, as great as the Westie was in the warm dry summer months, I actually enjoyed wrapping up and using in on cold crisp days but then again, it did have some luxury items such as a windsecreen and not an Aero screen
If these qualities aren't taken in to consideration, which car did I like the most?
Undoubtedly, it's the Westfield. They are so much fun to drive and just the pure rawness of the car holds a lot of appeal for me. The noise, the smell, everything about it made it feel special. An amazingly exhillarating drive and to me, nothing compares to it.
If I lived in a country with warmer climate and predicatable sunshine every day, I'd choose a 7 every time.
For me, the difference between a 7 and an Elise is that I found I could only really 'pop out' in the 7 where as you can actually take an Elise somewhere. If you're happy to use the car as an occasional vehical for just fun then there's no better car than a 7.
Funilly enough, as great as the Westie was in the warm dry summer months, I actually enjoyed wrapping up and using in on cold crisp days but then again, it did have some luxury items such as a windsecreen and not an Aero screen
An old post, but a great one and I asked the same question on another forum....
I first had a taste of driving a 7 many years ago when I was lucky enough to be invited by Autosport to do a "sprint event" in a road going 1.6 VX powered 7 and a 250bhp slicked race 7, and I still remember the event. In those 30 years I've owned 2 x Elise S1, a VX 7, 3 x k powered cars including a Superlight and a Sigma powered 7 and a couple of weeks ago after selling the Sigma I'ver gone back to a 160 spec Elise S1.
Rob summed it perfectly. also like to add if you want a 7 with audio Caterham did do a limited Autosport version that had a radio fitted and i have seen a JPE with a radio fitted . I like the way it's easy to have a bit of fun with a 7, easy to get the back out to provoke oversteer when required. I prefer the Elise steering, it's a lot lighter at parking speed. Peddle box is very tight in a 7, bare feet or race shoes required. and I find it easier to heel and toe in the Elise.
The 7 feels a lot faster especially with an aero screen and half doors. I would love to do a back to back comparison with a 7 and an Elise with the same spec engine.
There's a huge following for the the 7, there's multiple race series for the cars ( Graduates and Academy ) always have full grids and everyone is passionate about their 7. Spares are cheap and a set of second hand 13" 'Minilites can be had for £100.
Having just sold my 7 to get an Elise I'm now wanting a 7 back in my life having spent an evening with 90 Caterham 7 racers at the Graduates awards and also listening to Sam Moore interviewing Simon Lambert from Caterham Cars.
I first had a taste of driving a 7 many years ago when I was lucky enough to be invited by Autosport to do a "sprint event" in a road going 1.6 VX powered 7 and a 250bhp slicked race 7, and I still remember the event. In those 30 years I've owned 2 x Elise S1, a VX 7, 3 x k powered cars including a Superlight and a Sigma powered 7 and a couple of weeks ago after selling the Sigma I'ver gone back to a 160 spec Elise S1.
Rob summed it perfectly. also like to add if you want a 7 with audio Caterham did do a limited Autosport version that had a radio fitted and i have seen a JPE with a radio fitted . I like the way it's easy to have a bit of fun with a 7, easy to get the back out to provoke oversteer when required. I prefer the Elise steering, it's a lot lighter at parking speed. Peddle box is very tight in a 7, bare feet or race shoes required. and I find it easier to heel and toe in the Elise.
The 7 feels a lot faster especially with an aero screen and half doors. I would love to do a back to back comparison with a 7 and an Elise with the same spec engine.
There's a huge following for the the 7, there's multiple race series for the cars ( Graduates and Academy ) always have full grids and everyone is passionate about their 7. Spares are cheap and a set of second hand 13" 'Minilites can be had for £100.
Having just sold my 7 to get an Elise I'm now wanting a 7 back in my life having spent an evening with 90 Caterham 7 racers at the Graduates awards and also listening to Sam Moore interviewing Simon Lambert from Caterham Cars.
Agree with pretty much everything that has been said - ultimately for me the 7 is the more engaging car. That said I think the older ones were perhaps better road cars - less grippy tyres mean lighter steering. It used to be said that you steer a Caterham by the power of thought - heavier steering makes that less valid. Diff whine is a problem on many of the later DeDion cars.
The other factor is building it yourself. A car becomes more personal when you have done that and increases its appeal - to me at least.
The other factor is building it yourself. A car becomes more personal when you have done that and increases its appeal - to me at least.
I found the perfect way not to buy a Lotus.
Drive to Bell and Colvill in your Caterham, test drive a Lotus, love it, drive home in your Caterham and realise that the Caterham is better!
It was only when I didn't have a Caterham that I managed to buy an Evora
Drive to Bell and Colvill in your Caterham, test drive a Lotus, love it, drive home in your Caterham and realise that the Caterham is better!
It was only when I didn't have a Caterham that I managed to buy an Evora
Edited by BertBert on Friday 10th December 18:03
moribund said:
flyingjolly said:
Thank you Rob for your lenghty braind dump, great read and superb comparison.
+ 1That was a very comprehensive and balanced analysis.
One thing not mentioned was the gearchange, which some people (including myself) find a big part of the driving experience.
On an Elise, it varies from barely tolerable for a sports car (standard S1) to pretty good for a mid-engined cable shift (which is damning it with feint praise). The various gearboxes used on Sevens go from excellent to superb.
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