Elise engine conversion: Honda v Duratec

[Scuffers]

really?

you going to use Lee Connors experience as an excuse for a good idea to turbo a k series?


As for the mg6, yes they have modified the block, but they still only run them at very low power outputs, yes the block is a bit stiffer, but its certainly not bombproof

[bencollins]

Well I agree their are plenty of more powerful conversions out there like the Honda, but as it was not mentioned thus far and not on the Seloc list, Turbo Ks make a sensible alternative especially if you have an S1. I run mine to 200hp and thats plenty enough for my grandma driving style.
As a further aside i think its odd that the fit-a-v8/6-mob have polluted Lotus's. 4 pot turbos are Lotus's true heritage and more relevant now than ever. People screaming put a v8 in it are living in the seventies. Full hurumph.
A std Lotus SC Elise is the perfect sports car IMO.

[GregorFuk]

Duratec gives 150bhp in the Fiesta ST but in the Elise all the kits come with throttle bodies. This pushes the base power up to at least 180bhp but in reality you normally end up un the mid 190s.

[economicpygmy]

Scuffers said:

Lefty said:

Honda k20

Pros:
Tried and tested, lots of experience out there
200+ bhp
Very reliable package
6-spd box
Vtec yo!
Good demand 2nd hand when it comes to resale which helps value

Cons:
Heavy (+20kg to an s1 elise)
Hard to find low-mileage engine/box nowadays

corrected that for you.

I presume the 20kg difference is made up by a light exhaust, no AC and other replacement parts. K20A2 engine removed from a Honda EP3 with the coolant drained but still in the block, oil still in the block with the gearbox and ancillaries attached is 185kg. The Rover K in the same state was 145kg. I havent measured the Audi, Toyota, or Duratec.

That said I still prefer the Honda K20 (and its 6 speed) because as much as I love turbo cars, I just wouldnt want that in a Lotus. The Rover K was dropped becuase of unreliability.

[Scuffers]

economicpygmy said:

I presume the 20kg difference is made up by a light exhaust, no AC and other replacement parts. K20A2 engine removed from a Honda EP3 with the coolant drained but still in the block, oil still in the block with the gearbox and ancillaries attached is 185kg. The Rover K in the same state was 145kg. I havent measured the Audi, Toyota, or Duratec.

Adding up the individual parts is not really very accurate, at the end of the day, you need to weigh the whole car before and after.

this has been done many times by many people, and the numbers come back range from 15-30 kg's (SC cars being the top end of that).

all that said, your 185Kg's is plain wrong, last one I put on the scales with all it's ancillaries and drained was ~120Kg's.

only way you could get to that weight is to leave all the exhaust manifold/heat shielding/inter-shaft/etc etc etc.

[Lefty]

I know a chap who honda'd his s2 and weighed the car before and after on the same weighbridge and it added 50kg.

Lots of conflicting opinions around river v Honda weight, my original quote of 50kg was based on his experience. Can't see why an s1 would be different but happy to accept it might be!

[wevster]

My car (Elise S1) was 709kg before conversion and 732kg after.

[Scuffers]

Lefty said:

I know a chap who honda'd his s2 and weighed the car before and after on the same weighbridge and it added 50kg.

Lots of conflicting opinions around river v Honda weight, my original quote of 50kg was based on his experience. Can't see why an s1 would be different but happy to accept it might be!

they used pig iron parts?

Who knows, all I can tell you is I have personally weighed dozens of them, none have come close to 50Kg's difference.

[economicpygmy]

Scuffers said:

economicpygmy said:

I presume the 20kg difference is made up by a light exhaust, no AC and other replacement parts. K20A2 engine removed from a Honda EP3 with the coolant drained but still in the block, oil still in the block with the gearbox and ancillaries attached is 185kg. The Rover K in the same state was 145kg. I havent measured the Audi, Toyota, or Duratec.

Adding up the individual parts is not really very accurate, at the end of the day, you need to weigh the whole car before and after.

this has been done many times by many people, and the numbers come back range from 15-30 kg's (SC cars being the top end of that).

all that said, your 185Kg's is plain wrong, last one I put on the scales with all it's ancillaries and drained was ~120Kg's.

only way you could get to that weight is to leave all the exhaust manifold/heat shielding/inter-shaft/etc etc etc.

120kg must be without ancillaries and gearbox.

As above. The Honda K20A2 is around 40kg more than the Rover K 1.8 in the same state.

The reason I measured it was becuase I was sick of reading all the bullst.

[Lefty]

That sounds about right compared to my mates tested results.

It's the same internet opinion that adds bhp to dyno curves, without the dyno chart ever being published...or with the correction factor accidentally missed from the photo... . It's understandable enough, people spend a lot of time and/or money on conversions and sometimes feel the need to justify their decisions with "facts" to make their projects look just a little better.

[Lefty]

It could be some simple things I guess.

Does the Honda hold measurably more oil?
More coolant?
Was the rover k measured with standard exhaust? Cat? Primaries? Same with the Honda?
How much fuel was in the car at each weigh-in?
Were the tyres inflated with nitrogen?

[economicpygmy]

Lefty said:

That sounds about right compared to my mates tested results.

It's the same internet opinion that adds bhp to dyno curves, without the dyno chart ever being published...or with the correction factor accidentally missed from the photo... . It's understandable enough, people spend a lot of time and/or money on conversions and sometimes feel the need to justify their decisions with "facts" to make their projects look just a little better.

There are a few parts to offset the weight and as Simon mentioned, the Rover K doesnt have a half shaft so thats -2.7kg. If I have time, Ill measure the engine again next weekend with a picture.

Edited by economicpygmy on Saturday 2nd January 13:23

[Scuffers]

economicpygmy said:

120kg must be without ancillaries and gearbox.

As above. The Honda K20A2 is around 40kg more than the Rover K 1.8 in the same state.

The reason I measured it was becuase I was sick of reading all the bullst.

with ancillaries, no gearbox.

Gearbox is something like 41Kg's

engine holds just over 5L of oil, gearbox is under 2L

Next problem is your average weighbridge is calibrated to ~20Kg's at best for objects weighing several tonnes, not a light car.

Not saying yours is not that heavy, just that they don's have to be.



K20 + SC + IC etc etc.

[kambites]

The standard Lotus exhaust weighs a tonne. If upgrading from a standard K-series to a Honda, you can probably claw a good 5-10kg back there? I guess there are other examples of similar bits.

A few of the more extreme Honda cars seem to lose the entire boot too, which will save another chunk.

Edited by kambites on Saturday 2nd January 19:39

[Lefty]

Scuffers said:

economicpygmy said:

120kg must be without ancillaries and gearbox.

As above. The Honda K20A2 is around 40kg more than the Rover K 1.8 in the same state.

The reason I measured it was becuase I was sick of reading all the bullst.

with ancillaries, no gearbox.

Gearbox is something like 41Kg's

engine holds just over 5L of oil, gearbox is under 2L

Next problem is your average weighbridge is calibrated to ~20Kg's at best for objects weighing several tonnes, not a light car.

Not saying yours is not that heavy, just that they don's have to be.



K20 + SC + IC etc etc.

That thing must fly!

[Scuffers]

Lefty said:

That thing must fly!

https://youtu.be/Ic7uMC3NQO4

[Smitters]

st the bed, flat, in 6th into The Chase at 260kph. Epic.

Also, on topic - another vote for DVA work. Lots of flexibility in what you may want to achieve from a K series.

[barchetta_boy]

I must be the only person in the world who doesn't like the power delivery from the Honda engine, it just felt a bit gutless to me until the very upper reaches of the rev range, by which point the car sounded like a bandsaw, not a car.

In the end I went for an Elise with a DVA head and ITBs, nice, reliable 180bhp, sounds great. Still a very linear power delivery but a good slug of torque in the midrange.

[Smitters]

barchetta_boy said:

I must be the only person in the world who doesn't like the power delivery from the Honda engine, it just felt a bit gutless to me until the very upper reaches of the rev range, by which point the car sounded like a bandsaw, not a car.

In the end I went for an Elise with a DVA head and ITBs, nice, reliable 180bhp, sounds great. Still a very linear power delivery but a good slug of torque in the midrange.

No, I'm with you - I've had Imprezas and a 350, so midrange torque is a nice-to-have feeling. My Seven has a 56mm TB which makes it quite peaky too, but as I'm learning still, that's no bad thing and keeps me safe!

[Lefty]

If going Honda, do most people not bother about changing the clocks? Rev counter only goes to 8k...