Best Elise for a newbie to the marque
Discussion
Right - first post in this part of the forum as I don't, yet, have a Lotus...
Long story short I had a couple of 987 Porsches, then set up a business and so have been running a Mk.1 MX5 for a while. Business seems to be going OK now, and so it's time to change the Mazda for something a bit more special. I've always fancied an Elise ever since I saw an S2 at the NEC Motorshow (back in 2001 maybe?) and so the time is approaching for me to take the plunge - probably early next year.
The thing is, now I come to start looking, I realise just how many Elises there are! My budget is around £15k, but might stretch to £18k ish, so I've been looking at standard S2's, 111S, 111R and 2006 - 2009 'S' models.
I'll be doing almost exclusively road miles on holidays and high days, so don't want or need anything too track focused. I also have precious little spare time, so is one more reliable than another? Less time fixing and more time driving would be good (hence the inclusion of the 'S' model, which seems to be the latest car in budget, and from what i gather better built?).
Finally, I'd really love to take my little boy out in it, but he's only 2 (and car mad already) - will any of the seats take a child seat?
Any words of wisdom gratefully received - and yes, before you ask, I am registered at SELOC too, but I've been on PH for ages so thought I'd ask here first. I don't live far from Castle Sports Cars so might pop along there for some views, but Will Blackham seems like a good place to shop too? Again, any advice in that direction also appreciated.
Cheers!
Long story short I had a couple of 987 Porsches, then set up a business and so have been running a Mk.1 MX5 for a while. Business seems to be going OK now, and so it's time to change the Mazda for something a bit more special. I've always fancied an Elise ever since I saw an S2 at the NEC Motorshow (back in 2001 maybe?) and so the time is approaching for me to take the plunge - probably early next year.
The thing is, now I come to start looking, I realise just how many Elises there are! My budget is around £15k, but might stretch to £18k ish, so I've been looking at standard S2's, 111S, 111R and 2006 - 2009 'S' models.
I'll be doing almost exclusively road miles on holidays and high days, so don't want or need anything too track focused. I also have precious little spare time, so is one more reliable than another? Less time fixing and more time driving would be good (hence the inclusion of the 'S' model, which seems to be the latest car in budget, and from what i gather better built?).
Finally, I'd really love to take my little boy out in it, but he's only 2 (and car mad already) - will any of the seats take a child seat?
Any words of wisdom gratefully received - and yes, before you ask, I am registered at SELOC too, but I've been on PH for ages so thought I'd ask here first. I don't live far from Castle Sports Cars so might pop along there for some views, but Will Blackham seems like a good place to shop too? Again, any advice in that direction also appreciated.
Cheers!
The Elise world is a bit confusing indeed. I had an S2 SC a couple of years ago and I can highly recommend that. Looks like it would be out of your budget though. I'm also coming back into the world of Lotus after too long away. This is my understanding:
- 111S and 111R names date back to the pre-2006 cars which have the more unreliable Rover K-series engine. Head gaskets were the main issue. A well looked-after car shouldn't be a problem though and apparently these engines generally have more character than the Toyota-engined cars.
-People say that the 111R needs to be revved pretty high to keep it in the power band - this doesn't suit my driving style that well and is one of the things the supercharger helps with. Apparently the 111S is a bit more linear in its power delivery, although is slightly down on power vs the 111R.
- Standard 'S' is the most basic version but I guess you'll get a slightly newer car for your budget
- Late 2007 saw the introduction of the updated dash, complete with airbags. You'd probably have to go over £18k for one of them - don't know how important this is to you.
My advice would be to drive a few and find which one suits you best. Try to find a car with air-con because they do get pretty hot, especially in traffic. Good luck with it... I'd have one over a Porsche any day
- 111S and 111R names date back to the pre-2006 cars which have the more unreliable Rover K-series engine. Head gaskets were the main issue. A well looked-after car shouldn't be a problem though and apparently these engines generally have more character than the Toyota-engined cars.
-People say that the 111R needs to be revved pretty high to keep it in the power band - this doesn't suit my driving style that well and is one of the things the supercharger helps with. Apparently the 111S is a bit more linear in its power delivery, although is slightly down on power vs the 111R.
- Standard 'S' is the most basic version but I guess you'll get a slightly newer car for your budget
- Late 2007 saw the introduction of the updated dash, complete with airbags. You'd probably have to go over £18k for one of them - don't know how important this is to you.
My advice would be to drive a few and find which one suits you best. Try to find a car with air-con because they do get pretty hot, especially in traffic. Good luck with it... I'd have one over a Porsche any day
111R is the Toyota engine (189bhp) and likes to rev - 111S is the K-Series (about 160hp?) and is lighter and more linear.
The 'S' is also a Toyota, but only 135hp or so.
Standard car is K-series and 120hp. I'd not really ever sit in traffic, so could probably live without A/C. Am colour sensitive too, to add to the mix - orange, yellow and the brighter blues all look good to me.
But which is gonna suit me best? Would I miss the extra poke of the 111R if I got a standard car?
ETA: And what about a PTP upgrade? What on God's earth is that? So many choices and options on these cars.
The 'S' is also a Toyota, but only 135hp or so.
Standard car is K-series and 120hp. I'd not really ever sit in traffic, so could probably live without A/C. Am colour sensitive too, to add to the mix - orange, yellow and the brighter blues all look good to me.
But which is gonna suit me best? Would I miss the extra poke of the 111R if I got a standard car?
ETA: And what about a PTP upgrade? What on God's earth is that? So many choices and options on these cars.
Edited by Actus Reus on Wednesday 21st September 17:50
For your use and budget is be looking at a nice condition S2 111S - assuming it's been well looked after the 156bhp BBC K-series shouldn't be a problem, long ratio gearbox means reasonable economy, not too much engine noise at motorway speed, when you're not pushing on, but more than enough poke when you are.
I have had a 111S and then a Supercharged Exige.
If I were to come back to Lotus and had your budget I would be super tempted by the 111R.
The engine is more reliable from what I can tell. (HGF in the Rover seems a fact of life.)
And IIRC you get ABS with the R and not in the 111S.
To my mind, in the R you get a non-supercharged Exige for Elise money.
Other things:
- If it has aircon, make sure it works.
- Try and find one with the lowered cam change.
- Try and find one with a non-stock exhaust. (Stock just sounds a little sewing machine.)
- Not sure if this was just a 111S issue but for some reason the heating circuitry would get wet and fail, which is a clam off job (up to £1,000!).
- Make sure it has regular seat belts, not just a harness.
- Suspension refresh is usually due at 50-60k miles.
- Will Blackham gets great stock sign up to his Facebook feed.
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/l...
If I were to come back to Lotus and had your budget I would be super tempted by the 111R.
The engine is more reliable from what I can tell. (HGF in the Rover seems a fact of life.)
And IIRC you get ABS with the R and not in the 111S.
To my mind, in the R you get a non-supercharged Exige for Elise money.
Other things:
- If it has aircon, make sure it works.
- Try and find one with the lowered cam change.
- Try and find one with a non-stock exhaust. (Stock just sounds a little sewing machine.)
- Not sure if this was just a 111S issue but for some reason the heating circuitry would get wet and fail, which is a clam off job (up to £1,000!).
- Make sure it has regular seat belts, not just a harness.
- Suspension refresh is usually due at 50-60k miles.
- Will Blackham gets great stock sign up to his Facebook feed.
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/l...
111R owner here, so expect some bias...
If you're choosing between a 111S and a 111R, then I wouldn't get too hung up about which one you buy, but just look for the best condition car you can get for your budget.
111S may well suffer from HGF at some point, but it's usually not a big bill to fix.
The 111S is a bit lighter and more linear in its delivery, the 111R more powerful and peaky, but both have comparable real world performance.
The choice between the Elise S (non SC version) and 111S/111R is down to you. I've not driven the S, but am told that the performance is similar up to the cam change point of the R, so to my mind with the R you have the option to drive it like an S by short shifting, or get the extra performance by holding on to the gear for longer.
The great thing about an Elise is whatever you buy it will be a lot of fun, and if you decide it's not for you then you won't lose a packet as the depreciation is minimal.
If you're choosing between a 111S and a 111R, then I wouldn't get too hung up about which one you buy, but just look for the best condition car you can get for your budget.
111S may well suffer from HGF at some point, but it's usually not a big bill to fix.
The 111S is a bit lighter and more linear in its delivery, the 111R more powerful and peaky, but both have comparable real world performance.
The choice between the Elise S (non SC version) and 111S/111R is down to you. I've not driven the S, but am told that the performance is similar up to the cam change point of the R, so to my mind with the R you have the option to drive it like an S by short shifting, or get the extra performance by holding on to the gear for longer.
The great thing about an Elise is whatever you buy it will be a lot of fun, and if you decide it's not for you then you won't lose a packet as the depreciation is minimal.
Actus Reus said:
Right - first post in this part of the forum as I don't, yet, have a Lotus...
Long story short I had a couple of 987 Porsches, then set up a business and so have been running a Mk.1 MX5 for a while. Business seems to be going OK now, and so it's time to change the Mazda for something a bit more special. I've always fancied an Elise ever since I saw an S2 at the NEC Motorshow (back in 2001 maybe?) and so the time is approaching for me to take the plunge - probably early next year.
The thing is, now I come to start looking, I realise just how many Elises there are! My budget is around £15k, but might stretch to £18k ish, so I've been looking at standard S2's, 111S, 111R and 2006 - 2009 'S' models.
I'll be doing almost exclusively road miles on holidays and high days, so don't want or need anything too track focused. I also have precious little spare time, so is one more reliable than another? Less time fixing and more time driving would be good (hence the inclusion of the 'S' model, which seems to be the latest car in budget, and from what i gather better built?).
Finally, I'd really love to take my little boy out in it, but he's only 2 (and car mad already) - will any of the seats take a child seat?
Any words of wisdom gratefully received - and yes, before you ask, I am registered at SELOC too, but I've been on PH for ages so thought I'd ask here first. I don't live far from Castle Sports Cars so might pop along there for some views, but Will Blackham seems like a good place to shop too? Again, any advice in that direction also appreciated.
Cheers!
Most of the other points have been answered already but in respect of a couple of queries:Long story short I had a couple of 987 Porsches, then set up a business and so have been running a Mk.1 MX5 for a while. Business seems to be going OK now, and so it's time to change the Mazda for something a bit more special. I've always fancied an Elise ever since I saw an S2 at the NEC Motorshow (back in 2001 maybe?) and so the time is approaching for me to take the plunge - probably early next year.
The thing is, now I come to start looking, I realise just how many Elises there are! My budget is around £15k, but might stretch to £18k ish, so I've been looking at standard S2's, 111S, 111R and 2006 - 2009 'S' models.
I'll be doing almost exclusively road miles on holidays and high days, so don't want or need anything too track focused. I also have precious little spare time, so is one more reliable than another? Less time fixing and more time driving would be good (hence the inclusion of the 'S' model, which seems to be the latest car in budget, and from what i gather better built?).
Finally, I'd really love to take my little boy out in it, but he's only 2 (and car mad already) - will any of the seats take a child seat?
Any words of wisdom gratefully received - and yes, before you ask, I am registered at SELOC too, but I've been on PH for ages so thought I'd ask here first. I don't live far from Castle Sports Cars so might pop along there for some views, but Will Blackham seems like a good place to shop too? Again, any advice in that direction also appreciated.
Cheers!
Castle have gone downhill since Ben/L100NNY left - I live 45 mins from them and an hour from Stratton, but I bought my V6 new from Silverstone last year and would recommend them despite being 3 hours away from me... Will Blackham has a good rep and seemed decent the couple of times I've spoken to him. You could also try Guy Monday (ex Stratton) who is in Norfolk somewhere.
Child seats - I haven't found a group 1 car seat that fits (and would have concerns about the air bag anyway) and so haven't taken a 2 year old out in either my S2 or current V6 - but my daughter is now 4 and a half, once she got into a seat which takes the standard 3 point seatbelt I bought a Britax Adventure and have taken her out loads. It fits the Probax seats (and the seats in the Elise Club Racer) well.
walm said:
And IIRC you get ABS with the R and not in the 111S.
You do, though you also gain servo assistance, which is a downside IMO. It's the only aspect of the Rover engined cars I really envy.The R engine needs lots of revs to make all the performance, but there is enough go at lower revs that it's not a pain. And personally, I like high revving engines in sports cars.
Thanks for the answers so far chaps - appreciated.
I can't avoid the feeling that I should have a 111S or 111R rather than a standard car or an 'S', so I think I'm going to narrow my search down to them. I'm only casting an eye around at the moment, as I want to put a few quid away over the next couple of months (how very PH, no finance for me!). Then it'll be a case of testing one of each, and then deciding.
Bit of a shame about the child seat thing, but not totally surprising - he's two now, so not THAT long to wait. He's happy for now just sitting in my cars on the drive making engine noises (hell, so am I).
Thanks again and do keep 'em coming - all help really appreciated.
I can't avoid the feeling that I should have a 111S or 111R rather than a standard car or an 'S', so I think I'm going to narrow my search down to them. I'm only casting an eye around at the moment, as I want to put a few quid away over the next couple of months (how very PH, no finance for me!). Then it'll be a case of testing one of each, and then deciding.
Bit of a shame about the child seat thing, but not totally surprising - he's two now, so not THAT long to wait. He's happy for now just sitting in my cars on the drive making engine noises (hell, so am I).
Thanks again and do keep 'em coming - all help really appreciated.
Actus Reus said:
Bit of a shame about the child seat thing, but not totally surprising...
Remember that none of the 111S and 111Rs don't have passenger airbags.Only a very few 111Rs have airbags in the steering wheel.
I just pushed the seat back and strapped in our child seat as per normal with the seat belt.
It sat a little proud but was firm.
walm said:
Remember that none of the 111S and 111Rs don't have passenger airbags.
As ever, with all things Elise, it's not that simple. My 111R with Super Touring Pack (yes really!) does have driver and passenger airbags.
Not quite sure about the 'pushing the seat back' comment either - I've never seen an Elise with a movable passenger seat?
The Elise world can be quite easily broken down. Up until 2004 all Elises were Rover K series powered in different states of tune.
The 111R with a Toyota enigne was introduced in 2004. During 2004 & 2005 both Rover and Toyota engined Elises were produced. From 2006 onwards all Elises were Toyota powered. They made things a little confusing by reusing the 'S' label for the entry 134bhp 1ZZ Toyota powered Elise from 2007 onwards.
This Wiki link breaks it down.
I had a standard 2002 S2 and its a good car but can be a bit frustrating it you want to overtake slower traffic. In Sept 2004, I replaced it with a 111R and have never looked back. I've driven many of the other derivatives. I think the 111R is a better car for a whole number of reasons but there are strong fans for both camps. Some of those differences are mitigated by the VVC powered 111S but not all. Both cars respond well to some subtle modification. The Toyota powered cars are heavier but also have more equipment than many K's. All of them come with ABS and some with TC. In early 111R's aren't that heavy. I've had mine on scales and it was 870kg and it is fully loaded. AC, oil coolers, touring pack etc. These are my thoughts on why I prefer the R, I have taken both cars to the track but as 99% of my use is on road my comments are directed to that.
The R in normal use, it rides better, insulates you better and is less crashy.
It has ABS. I agree that the brake pedal feel was better on the none servo car but I had a couple of moments where I locked up the brakes when I really didn't want to, eg a car pulls out in front of you and you hit the brakes hard in semi panic. My S2 didn't have central locking and standing in the rain unlocking it especially if you had your girlfriend is with you was a pain. Reliable, my 12 year car 50,000+ mile car has given me no real grief. A couple of loose connections are the only issues and have caused no probs since fixed. The engine took 35,000 miles to really loosen up! Much nicer gearbox in the R, really easy, never baulks.
In spirited use the extra revs and the manic top end are really fun. As said in an earlier post a reflash allows a bit more power and to stay on cam easier. I has plenty of power whilst maintaining the NA feel and avoiding the complication of a supercharger. Its at that kind of speed that you can go hunting for it and feel like you are using it. I took out a V6 for the weekend. Brilliant car but when you are up it, it is just so quick that you constantly have to back off, either for safety or fear of your licence.
Good luck with your search.
The 111R with a Toyota enigne was introduced in 2004. During 2004 & 2005 both Rover and Toyota engined Elises were produced. From 2006 onwards all Elises were Toyota powered. They made things a little confusing by reusing the 'S' label for the entry 134bhp 1ZZ Toyota powered Elise from 2007 onwards.
This Wiki link breaks it down.
I had a standard 2002 S2 and its a good car but can be a bit frustrating it you want to overtake slower traffic. In Sept 2004, I replaced it with a 111R and have never looked back. I've driven many of the other derivatives. I think the 111R is a better car for a whole number of reasons but there are strong fans for both camps. Some of those differences are mitigated by the VVC powered 111S but not all. Both cars respond well to some subtle modification. The Toyota powered cars are heavier but also have more equipment than many K's. All of them come with ABS and some with TC. In early 111R's aren't that heavy. I've had mine on scales and it was 870kg and it is fully loaded. AC, oil coolers, touring pack etc. These are my thoughts on why I prefer the R, I have taken both cars to the track but as 99% of my use is on road my comments are directed to that.
The R in normal use, it rides better, insulates you better and is less crashy.
It has ABS. I agree that the brake pedal feel was better on the none servo car but I had a couple of moments where I locked up the brakes when I really didn't want to, eg a car pulls out in front of you and you hit the brakes hard in semi panic. My S2 didn't have central locking and standing in the rain unlocking it especially if you had your girlfriend is with you was a pain. Reliable, my 12 year car 50,000+ mile car has given me no real grief. A couple of loose connections are the only issues and have caused no probs since fixed. The engine took 35,000 miles to really loosen up! Much nicer gearbox in the R, really easy, never baulks.
In spirited use the extra revs and the manic top end are really fun. As said in an earlier post a reflash allows a bit more power and to stay on cam easier. I has plenty of power whilst maintaining the NA feel and avoiding the complication of a supercharger. Its at that kind of speed that you can go hunting for it and feel like you are using it. I took out a V6 for the weekend. Brilliant car but when you are up it, it is just so quick that you constantly have to back off, either for safety or fear of your licence.
Good luck with your search.
Whilst head gaskets do fail in the K-series cars, it tends to be fairly harmless and, for a car of the Elise's value and overall running costs, the repair cost is trivial. When I was working out rough running costs before I bought my 111S, I decided I could replace the head gasket every other year using the money I'd save in fuel vs the 111R. It's failed once in 10 years so far so I'm up there.
Drive all the variants you can afford and pick the one you like most. For me the main deciding factor was the brakes - I just couldn't get on with the servo assistance in the Toyota powered cars. There's not much difference in performance between the 111S and 111R at road speed; the Toyota has an extra 30bhp but it's also around 10% heavier.
Re. child seats, both our group-0 (Maxi-Cosi Cabriofix) and group-1 (Kiddy Pheonixfix Pro 2) seats fit fine.
Drive all the variants you can afford and pick the one you like most. For me the main deciding factor was the brakes - I just couldn't get on with the servo assistance in the Toyota powered cars. There's not much difference in performance between the 111S and 111R at road speed; the Toyota has an extra 30bhp but it's also around 10% heavier.
Re. child seats, both our group-0 (Maxi-Cosi Cabriofix) and group-1 (Kiddy Pheonixfix Pro 2) seats fit fine.
Edited by kambites on Friday 23 September 08:45
YellowCar said:
walm said:
Remember that none of the 111S and 111Rs don't have passenger airbags.
As ever, with all things Elise, it's not that simple. My 111R with Super Touring Pack (yes really!) does have driver and passenger airbags.
Not quite sure about the 'pushing the seat back' comment either - I've never seen an Elise with a movable passenger seat?
It must have fitted in without moving it!
Thanks all - looks like I need to try a 111R and a 111S and see how I get on. I have an Audi for my daily so I know all about over-servoed brakes. Looks like the plain old 'S' is not owned by many on here, so will likely discard that model from my search.
Thanks again - very helpful replies.
Thanks again - very helpful replies.
otolith said:
The Toyota cars don't have over-assisted brakes, they're fine, it's just that the unassisted brakes on the Rover cars are lovely.
(though terrifying for people who don't expect them)
Indeed, the Toyota's brakes aren't bad as such and certainly not in the VAG league of bad, they're just not as pleasant as the Rover ones. Swapping between my Rover engined Elise and the wife's Octavia still causes me problems and I've been doing it for years. (though terrifying for people who don't expect them)
SidewaysSi said:
Plenty of choice but much as the chassis is essentially the same, they can and do feel very different.
They feel quite different out of the box but because almost everything is interechangable you can get any 111 platform car to handle pretty much like any other just by bolting on the right components and then setting it up right; the only thing you can't easily do is make a late car light. Gassing Station | Elise/Exige/Europa/340R | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff