Just been in an Elise
Discussion
Smeagol
I think we are, I hope, on the same wavelength, I have driven other high performance cars - have owned 246GTS Dino (v expensive) and 308GTB-glassfibre (loved it- should never have sold it!), also owned 12no Lotus of various ilk to date, - for the record have also driven; Daytona Ferrari(165mph on M1 - tut, tut); 330 GTO and original(genuine) Ford GT40 (all owned by TC Harrison Ltd)- No Porsche, TVR I've driven has EVER impressed me enough to buy one. Extreme Caterfields - must try one soon - they do look pretty hot!
I am a total Lotus fanatic, surprise, surprise and think the Exige/Elise is the best car Lotus have ever made.
>> Edited by clanger on Sunday 10th November 07:26
I think we are, I hope, on the same wavelength, I have driven other high performance cars - have owned 246GTS Dino (v expensive) and 308GTB-glassfibre (loved it- should never have sold it!), also owned 12no Lotus of various ilk to date, - for the record have also driven; Daytona Ferrari(165mph on M1 - tut, tut); 330 GTO and original(genuine) Ford GT40 (all owned by TC Harrison Ltd)- No Porsche, TVR I've driven has EVER impressed me enough to buy one. Extreme Caterfields - must try one soon - they do look pretty hot!
I am a total Lotus fanatic, surprise, surprise and think the Exige/Elise is the best car Lotus have ever made.
>> Edited by clanger on Sunday 10th November 07:26
You may have guessed so am I, Hey why else would I be on a forum for a make which I used to own.
I think the m100 was the best car Lotus produced but probably the worst car for their company. The elan was far too expensive for Lotus but as a car it does exactly what it was designed to do ie 80% of drivers can use 80% of the power. It was comfortable, reliable, had boot space and easily used as an everyday car. I found the car could cope with bad weather and not much could beat it on the twisty stuff. At the time it really was the "fastest car from A to B" You may have guessed I loved that car.
However for the company it was terrible. The timing was wrong ie released just as a slump hit the market, and they tried to get into America with it. There was also a lot of anti-FWD feelings (IMHO stick in the mud types). I believe they were actually selling them at a loss at some stage. Great shame
The Elise on the other hand IMHO is great for the company, but not as good at doing what it was designed for. I'll explain: the Elise is supposed to be a lightweight sports car with back to basics concepts. However this concept has been blured over time. The car can no longer be classed as light weight (s2 is 800kg) and with the packs is no longer back to basics. Its almost as if Lotus didn't have enough courage to go for the all out road racing car (which considering the "success" of the elan is understandable). They should have fitted a much more powerful engine and not have options such as radios, carpets etc. (The radio is the most useless item in the Exige seeing as you can't hear it when driving along!). The new Elise is worse than the old one, the new styling makes the rear end look like a ferrari (If I wanted a ferrari I would buy a Ferrari, I want a Lotus) and the power is pitiful considering that there are lots of alternative engines.
With the Elan the lack of power is forgivable because thats not what the car was designed for (ie not a track car). The Elise on the other hand....
In summary it does seem a shame to me that a Lotus fanatic like me can't see any model they would currently buy if they had the money. I really hope Lotus read forums like this and realise what they need to do in the future, but I suspect they are going to do more luxurious (heavier) Elise derivatives with fancy paint jobs. I would love to be proved wrong.
I think the m100 was the best car Lotus produced but probably the worst car for their company. The elan was far too expensive for Lotus but as a car it does exactly what it was designed to do ie 80% of drivers can use 80% of the power. It was comfortable, reliable, had boot space and easily used as an everyday car. I found the car could cope with bad weather and not much could beat it on the twisty stuff. At the time it really was the "fastest car from A to B" You may have guessed I loved that car.
However for the company it was terrible. The timing was wrong ie released just as a slump hit the market, and they tried to get into America with it. There was also a lot of anti-FWD feelings (IMHO stick in the mud types). I believe they were actually selling them at a loss at some stage. Great shame
The Elise on the other hand IMHO is great for the company, but not as good at doing what it was designed for. I'll explain: the Elise is supposed to be a lightweight sports car with back to basics concepts. However this concept has been blured over time. The car can no longer be classed as light weight (s2 is 800kg) and with the packs is no longer back to basics. Its almost as if Lotus didn't have enough courage to go for the all out road racing car (which considering the "success" of the elan is understandable). They should have fitted a much more powerful engine and not have options such as radios, carpets etc. (The radio is the most useless item in the Exige seeing as you can't hear it when driving along!). The new Elise is worse than the old one, the new styling makes the rear end look like a ferrari (If I wanted a ferrari I would buy a Ferrari, I want a Lotus) and the power is pitiful considering that there are lots of alternative engines.
With the Elan the lack of power is forgivable because thats not what the car was designed for (ie not a track car). The Elise on the other hand....
In summary it does seem a shame to me that a Lotus fanatic like me can't see any model they would currently buy if they had the money. I really hope Lotus read forums like this and realise what they need to do in the future, but I suspect they are going to do more luxurious (heavier) Elise derivatives with fancy paint jobs. I would love to be proved wrong.
I agree with a number of the points you raise. The main area of disagreement is what owners expect from a Lotus. The typical Lotus owner is a different beast from that when I owned the original elan. Hell I don't want comfort (my biggest gripe on the M100 is the power steering and plush interior appointment)- makes you feel remote from the car - if comfort required the Lotus would feature way down my car wish list.
Radio in an Exige? - sacrilige!! - who wants to listen to a radio when you have the howl and resonance of that engine behind you - nowhere to keep CD's anyway!! I want my car to be minimalist and totally functional, designed to do the job - I think that's what the Elise and Lotus is all about.
I agree with you on the absence of the next model and there's the dilema for Lotus - they are really caught between the rock, etc. The competition is already established in this area and it would be a brave MD who committed the finance to design and develop what would in essence be a totally new car in a new territory. Failure could well push the co. to the brink (again!!!). Like to know how much Noble's backers threw at their project, shows it can be done tho'
No the future for Lotus must be the Elise S3 with perhaps a new engine. This will probably be necessary anyway because post 2003 I understand the K series will struggle to meet proposed EC emission thresholds (oh! those funsters in Brussels - don't you just love 'em).
Yep, some of those Elise paint jobs are a bit naff - but nostalgia sells - especially to the older generation (with disposable income!) who recollect the halcyon Lotus Grand Prix days.
Radio in an Exige? - sacrilige!! - who wants to listen to a radio when you have the howl and resonance of that engine behind you - nowhere to keep CD's anyway!! I want my car to be minimalist and totally functional, designed to do the job - I think that's what the Elise and Lotus is all about.
I agree with you on the absence of the next model and there's the dilema for Lotus - they are really caught between the rock, etc. The competition is already established in this area and it would be a brave MD who committed the finance to design and develop what would in essence be a totally new car in a new territory. Failure could well push the co. to the brink (again!!!). Like to know how much Noble's backers threw at their project, shows it can be done tho'
No the future for Lotus must be the Elise S3 with perhaps a new engine. This will probably be necessary anyway because post 2003 I understand the K series will struggle to meet proposed EC emission thresholds (oh! those funsters in Brussels - don't you just love 'em).
Yep, some of those Elise paint jobs are a bit naff - but nostalgia sells - especially to the older generation (with disposable income!) who recollect the halcyon Lotus Grand Prix days.
whilst at Lotus i spoke in depth to one of the marketing bods about the whole "power not enough "thing and he gave me what he says is the companys view.(this was pre S2 launch)
He said Lotus has never been or wants to be a volume car manufacturer but the need for financial security is a top priority.Therefore the elise was designed with power plant that would'nt send insurance so high as to stop everyday people buying it.Also,the rover unit was the cheapest engine on the market that had 100 hp plus.I later heard from someone at rover that it was the only engine that was available within Lotus's costs and rover group were the only people who would/could supply at that time.
I don't know how much ,if any of what he said was true but i do know type approval costs so much when you change engines and major designs as to why there is still a K series lump in an S2.Lotus just does not have the funds at the moment.
I too had an Elise and i found you had to really ring its neck to make it go.In the end thats why i moved on.Great car but having had much faster cars i found the experience a little too frustrating(back in 97)I was also unlucky and had lots of problems mechanically which i blame on it being one of the first produced.If they ever produce an Elise with a good,reliable 240bhp,i'd write the cheque out straight away
He said Lotus has never been or wants to be a volume car manufacturer but the need for financial security is a top priority.Therefore the elise was designed with power plant that would'nt send insurance so high as to stop everyday people buying it.Also,the rover unit was the cheapest engine on the market that had 100 hp plus.I later heard from someone at rover that it was the only engine that was available within Lotus's costs and rover group were the only people who would/could supply at that time.
I don't know how much ,if any of what he said was true but i do know type approval costs so much when you change engines and major designs as to why there is still a K series lump in an S2.Lotus just does not have the funds at the moment.
I too had an Elise and i found you had to really ring its neck to make it go.In the end thats why i moved on.Great car but having had much faster cars i found the experience a little too frustrating(back in 97)I was also unlucky and had lots of problems mechanically which i blame on it being one of the first produced.If they ever produce an Elise with a good,reliable 240bhp,i'd write the cheque out straight away
Bonce said: Graham, I think the crap experience you had is down to the driver simply not trying to show you what the car is about, and I thought you would have realised that seeing as you are a subscriber to the small engine, light car school of motoring (I mean your Westie not Land Rover!). Although the 111S pulls a lot better than the standard car from 70 to 100 as Arno said, it's BORING and not where I get my kicks.
Where the Elise shines is on small twisty hilly roads, in the 5-7000rpm rev band. You can't buy a car like that and drive it like you're worried it's gonna blow the head gasket if you thrash it. Buy a Daewoo if you're gonna think like that!
Honestly, some people!
I fully agree mate, TBH he was driving it a bit like sister wendy.
I think when I do track driving lessons I'll be in one, so I'll see what it's REALLY like around a track, but that's next year.
As usual, it comes down to personal opinion and what you actually want from a car, and how much you're prepared to pay.
Personally, I'm happy with my standard Elise. I test drove it and was driven in it, and when I handed over my cash I wasn't expecting anything other than the performance I got. I partially agree about motorway driving, though whoever said the Elise wasn't a "traffic-light sprint car" is very welcome to come and try their luck against me (especially if there's a corner within 100 yards). Sure, my roof leaks a bit in the wet, driving over 120mph is noisy and pushes the car, the fuel readout can go from 20L to 12L and back again just by going over a hill, and you can get numb-bum syndrome quicker than most cars - but please don't expect F40 power, Jaguar ride and Merc toys. On twisty "car advert" roads, you won't stop smiling (apart from when a 7 or Caterham flies past!)
>> Edited by Spooky on Monday 11th November 09:17
Personally, I'm happy with my standard Elise. I test drove it and was driven in it, and when I handed over my cash I wasn't expecting anything other than the performance I got. I partially agree about motorway driving, though whoever said the Elise wasn't a "traffic-light sprint car" is very welcome to come and try their luck against me (especially if there's a corner within 100 yards). Sure, my roof leaks a bit in the wet, driving over 120mph is noisy and pushes the car, the fuel readout can go from 20L to 12L and back again just by going over a hill, and you can get numb-bum syndrome quicker than most cars - but please don't expect F40 power, Jaguar ride and Merc toys. On twisty "car advert" roads, you won't stop smiling (apart from when a 7 or Caterham flies past!)
>> Edited by Spooky on Monday 11th November 09:17
pawsmcgraw said: whilst at Lotus i spoke in depth to one of the marketing bods about the whole "power not enough "thing and he gave me what he says is the companys view.(this was pre S2 launch)
He said Lotus has never been or wants to be a volume car manufacturer but the need for financial security is a top priority.Therefore the elise was designed with power plant that would'nt send insurance so high as to stop everyday people buying it.Also,the rover unit was the cheapest engine on the market that had 100 hp plus.I later heard from someone at rover that it was the only engine that was available within Lotus's costs and rover group were the only people who would/could supply at that time.
I don't know how much ,if any of what he said was true but i do know type approval costs so much when you change engines and major designs as to why there is still a K series lump in an S2.Lotus just does not have the funds at the moment.
Thats very interesting paws. I suspect the marketing bod was using "political spin" as the insurance for the Elise is relatively high anyway there wouldn't be much difference with a power increase.
The Rover story sounds more plausable. On the point that Lotus doesn't have much money, its worth remembering that their money also comes from there other engineering projects not just their cars also Proton have got a lot to be able to invest. I personally think they wanted to push out the S2 quickly and so didn't bother with changing the engine. Still why they released with the standard K instead of the 190bhp Exige engine seems very odd. (unless of course they want to have upgrade versions like they did with the S1)
I severely doubt that most Elise drivers think they need to drive it with mecanical sympathy. I drive mine like a stolen go-kart (was out doing do-nuts in it yesterday), and my first one was mercilessly thrashed around racetracks as though I was actually trying to snap it.
Things have of course worn out, but that's why they are made to be replaceable.
Since most power in my 135 isat the top, I frequently bang off the rev-limiter, and if I'm waiting for an opportunity to overtake, I can spend quite a while sitting at 5k revs.
Perhaps I'm a rarity, but I doubt it. The only reason I'd ever drive gently woud be if for some bizarre reason I was using the Elise to drive the wife somewhere, or if safety (or legality ) required it.
Things have of course worn out, but that's why they are made to be replaceable.
Since most power in my 135 isat the top, I frequently bang off the rev-limiter, and if I'm waiting for an opportunity to overtake, I can spend quite a while sitting at 5k revs.
Perhaps I'm a rarity, but I doubt it. The only reason I'd ever drive gently woud be if for some bizarre reason I was using the Elise to drive the wife somewhere, or if safety (or legality ) required it.
joust said: Drop it down 2 gears! Most people are "scared" of dropping down 2 gears in an elise - but it's where it excells. If you are wandering along at 70 in 5th - getting to 100 in 5th will take an age and a year.
Drop it down to 3rd (with the appropiate throttle *stab* (bit more than a blip)), then floor it, snatch 4th, and before you know it you'll be at 110+ if you aren't careful.....
The elise is one of those cars that really only comes alive in the 4.5-6.25krpm range.
Cue old stories about original tubo esprits - they were just the same in long gears. 5th is for getting 40mpg - not for having fun
If you've ever been out in an S2000 you'll know all about dropping down 2 (or in some cases 3!) gears....
J
Agree totally. Everyone seems to have a bash at the Elise with regards the m/way. Maybe they are all just driving it like they drive their Euro boxes!
adeewuff said: I know that feeling well, never happened to me, but there is always that niggling feeling that it could happen anytime.
I think all Lotus Elise owners have to drive it in a mechanically sympathetic way since they aren't built with any 'toughness' in mind. If only we can get that new Honda engine conversion over here then Elise owners would be able to thrash their cars with little worry. (plus have some power/speed at last!)
Do not agree. You don't see caterham, etc. drivers pottering around in their K powered motors.
Dropping down 2 gears did not cause the head gasket to blow. The problem would have been festering for sometime and could have gone at 30mph in traffic.
I guess you have never seen a CTR at the side of the road with smoke rolling out the bonnet?
I do not know any Elise / 340 / Exige drivers who tip toe around (except in the wet!). They are too busy enjoying the hoon.
I am on my second engine, the first only lasting 12k, but that was no fault of the K itself, more to do wiht an error during the extra work carried out on it. But that could happen to any engine. Certainly does not put me off hooning the car whenever I can.
>> Edited by 135sport on Monday 11th November 12:33
northernboy said: I severely doubt that most Elise drivers think they need to drive it with mecanical sympathy. I drive mine like a stolen go-kart (was out doing do-nuts in it yesterday), and my first one was mercilessly thrashed around racetracks as though I was actually trying to snap it.
Things have of course worn out, but that's why they are made to be replaceable.
Since most power in my 135 isat the top, I frequently bang off the rev-limiter, and if I'm waiting for an opportunity to overtake, I can spend quite a while sitting at 5k revs.
Perhaps I'm a rarity, but I doubt it. The only reason I'd ever drive gently woud be if for some bizarre reason I was using the Elise to drive the wife somewhere, or if safety (or legality ) required it.
Well then I join you in the rare club!
>> Edited by 135sport on Monday 11th November 12:34
I think the underlying problem is that many people expect it to 'just be fast'.
But you have to give it some stick to make it fast. Nothing wrong with 7K rpm. They all harp on about the Honda engine, but you have to be prepared to take that to 9K to get the best from it. I don't think the physical rpm is the issue, they just can't deal with looking at big numbers. Stop watching the clock and enjoy the blurr of the scenery!
They either don't know how to or are not prepared to. Therfore the Elise / 340 / Exige is not for you. Even the higher power versions need an enthusiastic driver! So it is not all down to the engine, it is the nature of the car and what it was designed for.
But you have to give it some stick to make it fast. Nothing wrong with 7K rpm. They all harp on about the Honda engine, but you have to be prepared to take that to 9K to get the best from it. I don't think the physical rpm is the issue, they just can't deal with looking at big numbers. Stop watching the clock and enjoy the blurr of the scenery!
They either don't know how to or are not prepared to. Therfore the Elise / 340 / Exige is not for you. Even the higher power versions need an enthusiastic driver! So it is not all down to the engine, it is the nature of the car and what it was designed for.
smeagol said: Still why they released with the standard K instead of the 190bhp Exige engine seems very odd.
The 190HP K-series from the Exige/340R has as much chance as a snowball in hell to get low enough emissions to comply wtit the Euro-III type approval limits.I think it even struggles to meet the old Euro-II limits.
You need camshaft tricks as used by different manufacturers (VTEC, VVTi, VVC, VANOS, etc. etc.) to get it low enough at low rpm's, but still keep going to 7500 to 8000rpm.
UK SVA is much more forgiving in this area and used to get the S2 Sport190 on the road, but limits the sales area pretty much to the UK only.This means low volume == high cost == high end price.
Bye, Arno.
IIRC the Exige has already passed the Type approval for this country with the 180bhp (hence why you modify it at the first service). So putting this engine in the UK S2 should have been no problem. The 340r and the s160 first run were the only cars that went through the SVA route, as they are limited to 50 cars per year.
The US market is going to have a completely new engine anyway because the stanadrd K-series doesn't pass emmisions.
Lotus have always been a low production manufacturer with the vast majority of sales in the UK. The S2 is not compliant now, so saying they needed the 118bhp K-series for european approval I believe is wrong esp as they have just released the S2 111s. They need another engine anyway! so why stick to one thats under power AND doesn't pass emmisions.
>> Edited by smeagol on Monday 11th November 15:54
The US market is going to have a completely new engine anyway because the stanadrd K-series doesn't pass emmisions.
Lotus have always been a low production manufacturer with the vast majority of sales in the UK. The S2 is not compliant now, so saying they needed the 118bhp K-series for european approval I believe is wrong esp as they have just released the S2 111s. They need another engine anyway! so why stick to one thats under power AND doesn't pass emmisions.
>> Edited by smeagol on Monday 11th November 15:54
smeagol said: IIRC the Exige has already passed the Type approval for this country with the 180bhp (hence why you modify it at the first service). So putting this engine in the UK S2 should have been no problem. The 340r and the s160 first run were the only cars that went through the SVA route, as they are limited to 50 cars per year.
The US market is going to have a completely new engine anyway because the stanadrd K-series doesn't pass emmisions.
The S2 is not US compliant so saying they needed the 118bhp K-series for type approval I believe is wrong.
I think also the factory built 135sport went the SVA route. No?
Correct on K series for the US. It will not go through their emissions, hence the rumours around the GM / Honda / Toyota engine deal.
I personally think the GM route might be the most likely, not so much the VX engine but something similar from a US GM vehicle (Saturn I think).
I get the impression that Honda and Toyota are not the sort of companies who would sell their engine at the price Lotus would be looking for.
Plus GM might see it as good PR (assuming they will not try to take the VX to the US).
I think putting the 190bhp K in a std type Elise S2 would have been a major prob on cost alone. Drivability for av Elise driver would also be compromised - whilst I am prepared to drive above 5k revs, in the Exige and accept allied fuel consumption and power delivery, I think others would view differently. Remember you're not talking mega increases in performance here for that xtra 70bhp.
smeagol said: IIRC the Exige has already passed the Type approval for this country with the 180bhp (hence why you modify it at the first service). So putting this engine in the UK S2 should have been no problem. The 340r and the s160 first run were the only cars that went through the SVA route, as they are limited to 50 cars per year.
The US market is going to have a completely new engine anyway because the stanadrd K-series doesn't pass emmisions.
Lotus have always been a low production manufacturer with the vast majority of sales in the UK. The S2 is not compliant now, so saying they needed the 118bhp K-series for european approval I believe is wrong esp as they have just released the S2 111s. They need another engine anyway! so why stick to one thats under power AND doesn't pass emmisions.
>> Edited by smeagol on Monday 11th November 15:54
i am not sure if thats a different thing.SVA and type approval are two different things(i was led to beleive)
When i worked with Rover i was lectured at my suggestion of moving a seat belt pick up point on a defender.I was shown that to move it would cost around 250,000£ in type approval alone,without retooling or production line changes.I know the elise had to pass TA and the modified elises have gone through SVA.A friend of mine bought one of the first 190 elises and had to run it through the production line as a standard vehicle then back down the production line to be re built as a 190.Once again,i don't know how correct this is but it would make sense as to why they never changed the engine on the S2 as costs would have been horrendous.
I also heard down the vine that Lotus's other external projects were very thin on the ground and have been for several years.If they were making profits i would be suprised,judging by their current financial position(hearsay mind!)
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