TVR vs Elise - good tradeoff?
Discussion
Agree with Fergusd.
The SP6 engine is the major, possibly only reason
why not to enter into TVR ownership.
In comparison to TVR, the Elise is cheap to run and very reliable.
Put off by losing your pride and joy for 4-5 weeks in summer due to engine problems, which should have been sorted out well before now!!! Then buy an Elise.
If TVR sorted out the SP6 engine instead launching a new model every Motor show, then perhaps TVR second hand prices wouldn't be so low at present. It's these 2nd hand prices, which now makes the comparison between an Elise and a Tuscan/Cerb so much closer.
You pays your money and makes your choice.......
The SP6 engine is the major, possibly only reason
why not to enter into TVR ownership.
In comparison to TVR, the Elise is cheap to run and very reliable.
Put off by losing your pride and joy for 4-5 weeks in summer due to engine problems, which should have been sorted out well before now!!! Then buy an Elise.
If TVR sorted out the SP6 engine instead launching a new model every Motor show, then perhaps TVR second hand prices wouldn't be so low at present. It's these 2nd hand prices, which now makes the comparison between an Elise and a Tuscan/Cerb so much closer.
You pays your money and makes your choice.......
I can see your point and without a doubt the Elise is definitley cheaper to run and buy than a TVR. As for the speed six engines, this sort of stuff was relevant a year or so back but seems to have been sorted now. I've done 12k and so far it hasn't missed a beat. TVR say they have solved the problems and I don't have any reason not to believe them. As for it "being off the road for weeks" I'm on my fourth TVR and have never had that happen with any of them. Some people have, but I know just as many people who have had trouble with Lotus' as I have with TVR's.
The suspension settings and dampers on the Tamora are much harder than on the Tuscan. Have a go in one and I'm sure you will be surprised just how good the handling is. It's still not as agile as the Elise but a vast improvement on any other TVR previously built.
Despite all that, I still don't think it's a really fair comparison, they are really different cars and the TVR's are twice as much as the Lotus to buy.
I really do think that for the price, the Lotus is an absolute performance bargain, and plenty quick enough for British roads.
The suspension settings and dampers on the Tamora are much harder than on the Tuscan. Have a go in one and I'm sure you will be surprised just how good the handling is. It's still not as agile as the Elise but a vast improvement on any other TVR previously built.
Despite all that, I still don't think it's a really fair comparison, they are really different cars and the TVR's are twice as much as the Lotus to buy.
I really do think that for the price, the Lotus is an absolute performance bargain, and plenty quick enough for British roads.
flasher saidI really do think that for the price, the Lotus is an absolute performance bargain, and plenty quick enough for British roads.
thats because my itty bitty wickle 1.8l elise suprised his tamora ass over some tight twisties recenty!!
i am torn between a t350 and sticking with the Elise, the elise is such a good drive and low hassle but does not really make the right noises or have that raw grunt which tvr provide
Bennno
bennno said:
flasher saidI really do think that for the price, the Lotus is an absolute performance bargain, and plenty quick enough for British roads.
thats because my itty bitty wickle 1.8l elise suprised his tamora ass over some tight twisties recenty!!
i am torn between a t350 and sticking with the Elise, the elise is such a good drive and low hassle but does not really make the right noises or have that raw grunt which tvr provide
Bennno
I thought you had "had it" with TVR's Bennno after your previous reliability woes - coming back around to Blackpools finest?
bennno said:
thats because my itty bitty wickle 1.8l elise suprised his tamora ass over some tight twisties recenty!!
Bennno
Didn't surprise me at all Ben, I knew they were good on that type of road. What did suprise me was how well the Tamora hung on to the Elise on the tight roads....
Whatever you decide to buy, I can't see you keeping it for long, judging by your low boredom threshold.
flasher said:
The suspension settings and dampers on the Tamora are much harder than on the Tuscan. Have a go in one and I'm sure you will be surprised just how good the handling is.
Certainly something I'd like to try . . . unfortunately the last dealer track day that the Edinburgh dealer held was for TVR owners only . . . never seen a Tamora on track yet
Despite all that, I still don't think it's a really fair comparison, they are really different cars and the TVR's are twice as much as the Lotus to buy.
Agree, but the comparison will always be made
Fd
alright then. are elises substantially cheaper to run than my 4L chim?
i use a specialist @ 30 pound an hour and v8 bits aren't so expensive ( they just multiply! ).
i realise that the k series is more modern a design, probably more docile in traffic, and perhaps less prone to being let down by a blown fuse or something silly like that but can you really claim that servicing is any cheaper?
obviously gas comes into the equation ( the main reason i am also considering a swap - jesus we're portraying an exodus! ) as i have to commute every day 60 miles around.
i would be looking at spending about the same as the chim is worth 13-14k so what am i likely to get?
also build quality. the s1 i looked at ages ago was flaky to say the least ( sorry guys - i do realise i'm on the elise section ) and bog all in the way of staorage or bits that seemed to stay where they were put! the luggage lid had more shake than mohamed ali!
i know - a poor example perhaps - but this was from a dealer with 18k on the clock, fsh. again, maybe fair do's - witness the tvr dealer trying to punt me a car with 7-8 different faults ( that i could see ) at a 3k premium.
oh yeah - and from time to time i may have to drive 500 miles in a day - and do a days work. how much chance of that happening?
i will also miss the pure grunt. convince me! i still have a hankering.
i use a specialist @ 30 pound an hour and v8 bits aren't so expensive ( they just multiply! ).
i realise that the k series is more modern a design, probably more docile in traffic, and perhaps less prone to being let down by a blown fuse or something silly like that but can you really claim that servicing is any cheaper?
obviously gas comes into the equation ( the main reason i am also considering a swap - jesus we're portraying an exodus! ) as i have to commute every day 60 miles around.
i would be looking at spending about the same as the chim is worth 13-14k so what am i likely to get?
also build quality. the s1 i looked at ages ago was flaky to say the least ( sorry guys - i do realise i'm on the elise section ) and bog all in the way of staorage or bits that seemed to stay where they were put! the luggage lid had more shake than mohamed ali!
i know - a poor example perhaps - but this was from a dealer with 18k on the clock, fsh. again, maybe fair do's - witness the tvr dealer trying to punt me a car with 7-8 different faults ( that i could see ) at a 3k premium.
oh yeah - and from time to time i may have to drive 500 miles in a day - and do a days work. how much chance of that happening?
i will also miss the pure grunt. convince me! i still have a hankering.
oh yeah ( still going -sorry ).
leaks? ok the chim had a complete hood before i got it and i have since re-proofed it but it never, ever, leaked. at all. in any way shape or form.
so what gives with the elise? is there a reasonable, mechanical reason for leaks ( from hardtops as well i have heard and seen ), apart from the fact that someone strapped a tent to a perfectly good car
if so can it be fixed?
leaks? ok the chim had a complete hood before i got it and i have since re-proofed it but it never, ever, leaked. at all. in any way shape or form.
so what gives with the elise? is there a reasonable, mechanical reason for leaks ( from hardtops as well i have heard and seen ), apart from the fact that someone strapped a tent to a perfectly good car
if so can it be fixed?
Actually, the 5.0 Griff versus an Elise is one I came across at a track just after I boight my first Elise.
At Snetterton, the corner leading to the chicane can be taken at over 100. I wasn't up to that level of comittment on a blind turn, so ended up with a Griff 500 approaching me into the chicane. I took the chicane as hard as I could, then floored it up the pit straight, keeping well to the right to let the griffith pass. He was only starting to draw level at the end of the straight, and I had to back off to let him by (well, a very slight lift). I was pretty stunned. It was a guy I was out with, so I knew he was trying, but it seemed that the Elise's ability to take the chicane hard, and get the power down early went a very long way to making up for the power deficit in track driving.
Having said that, I did miss the power of a TVR (had a Griffith company car fr a while) when I first moved to a lotus. Lead to me getting an S4 when I gave up my first one.
At Snetterton, the corner leading to the chicane can be taken at over 100. I wasn't up to that level of comittment on a blind turn, so ended up with a Griff 500 approaching me into the chicane. I took the chicane as hard as I could, then floored it up the pit straight, keeping well to the right to let the griffith pass. He was only starting to draw level at the end of the straight, and I had to back off to let him by (well, a very slight lift). I was pretty stunned. It was a guy I was out with, so I knew he was trying, but it seemed that the Elise's ability to take the chicane hard, and get the power down early went a very long way to making up for the power deficit in track driving.
Having said that, I did miss the power of a TVR (had a Griffith company car fr a while) when I first moved to a lotus. Lead to me getting an S4 when I gave up my first one.
chimburt said: alright then. are elises substantially cheaper to run than my 4L chim?
i use a specialist @ 30 pound an hour and v8 bits aren't so expensive ( they just multiply! ).
i realise that the k series is more modern a design, probably more docile in traffic, and perhaps less prone to being let down by a blown fuse or something silly like that but can you really claim that servicing is any cheaper?
depends who services it
have a look at the servicing section of
www.elise-faq.info
you'll see the services go AABAACAA . . . at 9000 mile intervals, A service is really only an oil change, b is oil change + other filters/coolant, C is more costly - cambelt etc, parts/consumables costs for OEM parts for A is about 35 quid, B about 50 quid, not done a C yet so don't know.
If you take it to Lotus you get screwed on labour rates, any 1/2 decent garage should be able to service it perfectly well, buy a service manual and lend it to them . . .
obviously gas comes into the equation ( the main reason i am also considering a swap - jesus we're portraying an exodus! ) as i have to commute every day 60 miles around.
on a full tank (36 litres of which I refil at about 5-10 litres) I get . . .
300+ miles on the motorwat (80-90)
250ish miles on A/B roads
150 miles on track
i would be looking at spending about the same as the chim is worth 13-14k so what am i likely to get?
an immaculate late model low milage S1 privately . . .
also build quality. the s1 i looked at ages ago was flaky to say the least ( sorry guys - i do realise i'm on the elise section ) and bog all in the way of staorage or bits that seemed to stay where they were put! the luggage lid had more shake than mohamed ali!
i know - a poor example perhaps - but this was from a dealer with 18k on the clock, fsh. again, maybe fair do's - witness the tvr dealer trying to punt me a car with 7-8 different faults ( that i could see ) at a 3k premium.
Later S1's are much better IMHO, I have a 2000 S1 and it's done 36K miles without any problems not attributable to thrashing the balls off it all the time.
oh yeah - and from time to time i may have to drive 500 miles in a day - and do a days work. how much chance of that happening?
It's not a motorway car, but for long journeys (have done >500 in a day a few times on the continent) I don't find it uncomfy but do wear earplugs
i will also miss the pure grunt. convince me! i still have a hankering.
Impossible to convince you, IMHO even a standard elise is plenty fast enough in the territory it was designed for, that's not a 500 mile motorway journey though. Having said that I cruise on the motorway at 80-90 and don't get involved in racing people at 130+ so top speed is of no relevance to me . . . so perhaps I'm not the person to convince you
Having passengered in a new Tuscan fairly regularly I recon the elise is not really much noisier, it's just a different kind of noise . . . not as nice . . .
Fd
chimburt said:so what gives with the elise? is there a reasonable, mechanical reason for leaks ( from hardtops as well i have heard and seen ), apart from the fact that someone strapped a tent to a perfectly good car
if so can it be fixed?
Some cars leak some don't, early S1's were terrible (a friend has an early one and it is appauling), later S1's have a much better softtop, mine leaks a very occasional drip in torrential rain if stationary, never leaks on the move or in low rain levels. Like many softtop cars leaks often only start when you get in as the water then bridges the seals . . .
Hardtops leak because those who fit them don't adjust the windows properly to fit the seals, it's a fiddly job.
I don't think there is such a thing as a 100% waterproof elise, but later ones are much better.
YMMV
fergusd said:
chimburt said:so what gives with the elise? is there a reasonable, mechanical reason for leaks ( from hardtops as well i have heard and seen ), apart from the fact that someone strapped a tent to a perfectly good car
if so can it be fixed?
Some cars leak some don't, early S1's were terrible (a friend has an early one and it is appauling), later S1's have a much better softtop, mine leaks a very occasional drip in torrential rain if stationary, never leaks on the move or in low rain levels. Like many softtop cars leaks often only start when you get in as the water then bridges the seals . . .
Hardtops leak because those who fit them don't adjust the windows properly to fit the seals, it's a fiddly job.
I don't think there is such a thing as a 100% waterproof elise, but later ones are much better.
YMMV
I think it's variable, and not just based on age. My '96 S1 is pretty much perfectly waterproof. I generally get drips through only if I've put the roof on in a hurry. Compared to my previous M100 (in which you had to wear several towels whilst driving in the rain) it's excellent.
[Said S1 is currently on sale in classifieds if you do eventually get convinced of the Lotus vs TVR debate...]
I think it's variable, and not just based on age. My '96 S1 is pretty much perfectly waterproof. I generally get drips through only if I've put the roof on in a hurry. Compared to my previous M100 (in which you had to wear several towels whilst driving in the rain) it's excellent.
I'm very surprised you had problems with the m100 Elan. I had one and had no problems apart from some little ingress. The water leak in the m100 was mostly due to people not reading the instructions. ie not lowering the windows prior to raising. Or abuse/not set up correctly. One service garage I knew took 2 attempts to get it right when the roof was replaced, due to scrote having a go at stealing the car. IMHO the m100 roof was superb.
At one Lotus meet I went to it was pouring down, My car and the Esprits were dry inside but the poor Elise owners were in real trouble. One reason I didn't buy an Elise was the appaling roof, I found it fiddly, time consuming and it didn't work (even when done correctly). The m100 you could put up the roof whilst at a red light and it worked.
Perhaps yours was just a poor example, hey Lotus with variable build quality, no never
>> Edited by smeagol on Thursday 12th December 19:36
Both my S1 Elises have let in zero water when the roof was fitted correctly. It was not always apparent when you put the roof on that you'd not ligned it up well, but if you got a couple of drips, you just moved it across a couple of mill, and the problem went away.
I was down in Europe in it this summer, and actually drove through some storms with no roof on, without getting wet. As long as speed stayed at 70 or above, it wasn't a problem.
Of course, in the UK< that isn't really an option.
I was down in Europe in it this summer, and actually drove through some storms with no roof on, without getting wet. As long as speed stayed at 70 or above, it wasn't a problem.
Of course, in the UK< that isn't really an option.
Interesting thread this. I've read it with great interest as I am also considering an Elise. Having driven Scoobs for the last three years or so, trying to compare the two cars is almost impossible (chalk and cheese comes to mind). I've enjoyed both my Scoobs (faultless motoring in excess of 80K miles), but I still have a soft spot for a 'proper' sports car.
My point is that I know that the Elise doesn't have huge grunt in standard form in a straight line (still pretty impressive though), but for me that isn't the reason for buying one - it's the handling and composure of the car as a whole.
One of the Scoobs biggest weaknesses is the lack of steering 'feel' and feedback - there is very little. I still remember my 205 GTi from years back (1.6, 115bhp, no power assited steering - fab ) - this is something that the Elise has in bucketloads and why I am now convinced that this is the way to go.
Chris (apologies slightly off topic)
My point is that I know that the Elise doesn't have huge grunt in standard form in a straight line (still pretty impressive though), but for me that isn't the reason for buying one - it's the handling and composure of the car as a whole.
One of the Scoobs biggest weaknesses is the lack of steering 'feel' and feedback - there is very little. I still remember my 205 GTi from years back (1.6, 115bhp, no power assited steering - fab
) - this is something that the Elise has in bucketloads and why I am now convinced that this is the way to go. Chris (apologies slightly off topic)
To continue the debate it appears that Lotus, according ot both Auto Express and Auto Car are to fit a V6 to the S2, with a view possibly that is becomes the US Elise too.
Certainly addresses the issue of more power, although still not a V8, to the detriment of the cars weight/handling we will have to wait and see. It could be that they offer the Elise with a range of engines, as in the Audi TT which has also gained a V6.
Nothing official from Lotus as yet on this issue mind.
PC
Certainly addresses the issue of more power, although still not a V8, to the detriment of the cars weight/handling we will have to wait and see. It could be that they offer the Elise with a range of engines, as in the Audi TT which has also gained a V6.
Nothing official from Lotus as yet on this issue mind.
PC
Apart from the noise why bother with a V8 if a V6 will suffice . . . If you examine an elise, as an example of a lightweight car, the measures taken to keep the weight down are somewhat extreme, but necessary to make the best use of a small/light engine . . . to go down the route of heavy engine (perhaps not all V8's are heavier than V6's, dunno - guessing) means a heavier car in almost all respects, so less bang for buck in engine power / handling / etc . . . a vicious circle . . .
I can't believe that the elise will get a V6, I think the Elise will stay as a lightweight car with a 4 pot engine, IMHO the V6 (if there is one !) is for something else, for a number of reasons, Esprit replacement being a significant one, also if you go V6 in the elise then the elise moves upmarket and up in price significantly (I suspect) and thus sales reduce, the Elise is Lotus's bread and butter at the moment, and IMHO cutting that income is daft.
One big problem that Lotus do have to address is the new legislation that effectively makes tuning engines legally very difficult (ODBII, etc) and thus if the stock car is insufficiently fast then enthusiasts will not buy it, as they know it is becoming increasingly difficult to change the performance of the car. This is very much different from cars up to and including the S1 Elise where many cars are tuned.
Personally I'd like a well developed supercharged (wouldn't want a turbo) 4 pot of say ~200Bhp in a new Elise and a V6 in the next step up the Lotus ladder . . . if the next Elise has a 120BHP, difficult to tune, engine I think Lotus will have made a mistake . . .
Fd
why bother with a V8 if a V6 will suffice . . . If you examine an elise, as an example of a lightweight car, the measures taken to keep the weight down are somewhat extreme, but necessary to make the best use of a small/light engine . . . to go down the route of heavy engine (perhaps not all V8's are heavier than V6's, dunno - guessing) means a heavier car in almost all respects, so less bang for buck in engine power / handling / etc . . . a vicious circle . . . I can't believe that the elise will get a V6, I think the Elise will stay as a lightweight car with a 4 pot engine, IMHO the V6 (if there is one !) is for something else, for a number of reasons, Esprit replacement being a significant one, also if you go V6 in the elise then the elise moves upmarket and up in price significantly (I suspect) and thus sales reduce, the Elise is Lotus's bread and butter at the moment, and IMHO cutting that income is daft.
One big problem that Lotus do have to address is the new legislation that effectively makes tuning engines legally very difficult (ODBII, etc) and thus if the stock car is insufficiently fast then enthusiasts will not buy it, as they know it is becoming increasingly difficult to change the performance of the car. This is very much different from cars up to and including the S1 Elise where many cars are tuned.
Personally I'd like a well developed supercharged (wouldn't want a turbo) 4 pot of say ~200Bhp in a new Elise and a V6 in the next step up the Lotus ladder . . . if the next Elise has a 120BHP, difficult to tune, engine I think Lotus will have made a mistake . . .
Fd
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